Let's Talk Items

[HammerHappy]

I'm glad you like the idea but...
You are now stupid as stated in the OP. Sorry, but you used a horrible example especially when I said we'd look at using ISP criteria which bans Pokeballs no questions asked. I'm trying to turn on items that work with competition, so read next time.
Mitigating an opponents luck and using your own to the maximum is a component found in an incrredibly high number of competitive games. Randomness does not instantly mean that something is noncompetitive.
And finally, you didn't have to be a jerk. Seriously, why respond to someone not being civil by being a jerk as well? It does nothing to further the discussion.

Was not aware and still don't care now aware about ISP criteria. Pokeball doesn't even matter, it's interchangeable with anything. You ignored the core point to jump at the chance to call me stupid.

The meteor mash granted by pitfall, the damage done by lips stick, the mobility granted by bunny hood are all factors and variables that detract the level playing field that competitive fighting games seek to establish.
That isn't even the greatest differentiation, which would be spawn locations. Someone winning because a Mr. Freeze fabricated itself into existence next to him.

Also, you essentially just said "Watching to see who can out-abuse chance based factors is used a lot in comp games."

Which ones? Please list them so I can know. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I want names to research and look at. Because the behemoths of competitive gaming are desperately and dynamically changing the game to ensure that luck or inherent imbalance is never the deciding factor.

Also, I wasn't being a jerk. I was responding directly to the person I quoted (who I wasn't even surprised had the opposite opinion of me, even expected it. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum.) I think you just got instantly defensive the moment I pointed out the well-documented reasons items are banned.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Was not aware and still don't care now aware about ISP criteria. Pokeball doesn't even matter, it's interchangeable with anything. You ignored the core point to jump at the chance to call me stupid.

The meteor mash granted by pitfall, the damage done by lips stick, the mobility granted by bunny hood are all factors and variables that detract the level playing field that competitive fighting games seek to establish.
That isn't even the greatest differentiation, which would be spawn locations. Someone winning because a Mr. Freeze fabricated itself into existence next to him.

Also, you essentially just said "Watching to see who can out-abuse chance based factors is used a lot in comp games."

Which ones? Please list them so I can know. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I want names to research and look at. Because the behemoths of competitive gaming are desperately and dynamically changing the game to ensure that luck or inherent imbalance is never the deciding factor.

Also, I wasn't being a jerk. I was responding directly to the person I quoted. I think you just got instantly defensive the moment I pointed out the well-documented reasons items are banned.

I'll give you a large list to start with, almost every single competitive board and card game in existence. When you finish, I'll list more. Seriously, the numbers there alone are incredible.

Why do all of those things detract from the game though? Is it actually breaking the game? Does the better player not consistently win with items on? Especially if the last thing happened I could see items as broken. Randomness does not equal noncompetitive.

Another note, ISP does not allow items that can be activated on spawn, only items that players can consciously choose to use or not. On top of this, yes a player may have an item spawn next to them at an opportune moment. This can happen to both players. Heck this can somewhat happen on Halberd which was legal at Apex with the hazards choosing someone at random. Truly knowing what to do when the opponent is in a favorable position is a skill yes? If that favorable position is gained at random this does not chance this.

Yes it's not everyone's cup of tea, why I'd like to use the 3DS to try it to get new players in and give old players a fun outlet IF THEY WANT TO TRY IT. But some of the stuff people say about randomness destroying competition isn't right and is unfounded.

 

[mimgrim]

Quite a few can hold quite the pace. But in all honesty for fighters I am unsure. To me it is still a testable skill and has been tested in Smash at ISP events in Brawl even and shown to cause no problems.

Same pace as in split second decisions, Constant reading and punishing, good amount of tech skill, constantly trying not to get punished, ect...? Randomness helps certain games but detracts from others.

Another note, ISP does not allow items that can be activated on spawn, only items that players can consciously choose to use or not. On top of this, yes a player may have an item spawn next to them at an opportune moment. This can happen to both players. Heck this can somewhat happen on Halberd which was legal at Apex with the hazards choosing someone at random. Truly knowing what to do when the opponent is in a favorable position is a skill yes? If that favorable position is gained at random this does not chance this.

Each of Halberd's hazards gives a warning. A warning long enough for both players to use it and earn the advantage. Items don't.

Yes it's not everyone's cup of tea, why I'd like to use the 3DS to try it to get new players in and give old players a fun outlet IF THEY WANT TO TRY IT. But some of the stuff people say about randomness destroying competition isn't right and is unfounded.

That's all fine and dandy. But what I don't want is the 3DS becoming only for items and non-item play getting over shadowed by item play on it. There are legitimate reasons to have items, I'll admit that, but there are also legitimate reasons not to have them as well. And a lot of people prefer the latter.

 

[smashbro29]

Oh, I'm suddenly at a disadvantage and I must find a way to turn this on my favor! It's not like this is the fun part of a competition!

If you gain the upper hand by pulling off a spike or getting a devastating combo you earned that all by yourself if an item fell close by to you and you used it to great effect who is to say your opponent wouldn't use it just as well?

So, would you change your stance if you could designate the item spawn points?

Let's not go to hypothetical town.

I'm going to assume people who would try ISP wouldn't mind and that I'd be tapping into a lot of new people seeing as how it was being used more as an introduction into smash, so yeah I see no issues.

I get that this is basically t-ball for competive smash but why baby new players?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Same pace as in split second decisions, Constant reading and punishing, good amount of tech skill, constantly trying not to get punished, ect...? Randomness helps certain games but detracts from others.

I see what you're getting at here, but can you prove such a thing will be a problem in Smash?

I get that this is basically t-ball for competive smash but why baby new players?

See it's not JUST for that purpose. Yes it is a bit like a t-ball concept I can't lie, but think about how many people we could gain just by giving them a point of entry. More people gives us bigger events, bigger events more sponsors and recognition, if we look good to new players they in turn will talk of their good experiences bringing in MORE players.

Plus, I can bet there are top players or just players in general that we already have that would enjoy the possibility of playing something different on occasion purely for fun. Those who love getting technical in theory with smash will enjoy having two meta games to explore. Hey, two tier lists may turn out significantly different as well, so people might like the variety there.

We have a valuable tool here, why not use it instead of neglecting it?

 

[smashbro29]

I see what you're getting at here, but can you prove such a thing will be a problem in Smash?



See it's not JUST for that purpose. Yes it is a bit like a t-ball concept I can't lie, but think about how many people we could gain just by giving them a point of entry. More people gives us bigger events, bigger events more sponsors and recognition, if we look good to new players they in turn will talk of their good experiences bringing in MORE players.

Plus, I can bet there are top players or just players in general that we already have that would enjoy the possibility of playing something different on occasion purely for fun. Those who love getting technical in theory with smash will enjoy having two meta games to explore. Hey, two tier lists may turn out significantly different as well, so people might like the variety there.

We have a valuable tool here, why not use it instead of neglecting it?

Here's the thing. If you're messing arund and just playing with the bros or whatever I don't care what you do. An event with real money that people will travel for? Turn this random stuff off. Because it is random. No debating that.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Here's the thing. If you're messing arund and just playing with the bros or whatever I don't care what you do. An event with real money that people will travel for? Turn this random stuff off. Because it is random. No debating that.

Without being too hypothetical, what if all the people that went to items on events already that exist/existed in many places that took money to play in don't care that it took money to enter since they don't?

What's hurting them from playing? As a helpful thing, gambling laws don't apply in this scenario, it's been looked at previously.

 

[smashbro29]

Without being too hypothetical, what if all the people that went to items on events already that exist/existed in many places that took money to play in don't care that it took money to enter since they don't?

What's hurting them from playing? As a helpful thing, gambling laws don't apply in this scenario, it's been looked at previously.

Make that way less confusing to read please.

 

[Zonderion]

Let's not go to hypothetical town.

Lol, worst cop out ever. Hypotheticals are meant to explore possible scenarios and the outcome of those scenarios. Good job dodging that one.

Edit: if you weren't going to answer it, it would of been better to just ignore the question.

 

[smashbro29]

Lol, worst cop out ever. Hypotheticals are meant to explore possible scenarios and the outcome of those scenarios. Good job dodging that one.

Edit: if you weren't going to answer it, it would of been better to just ignore the question.

Alright let's answer it. Even though if it has no shot of being in the game and hasn't been in any game or mod of a game let me take the time out to answer this hypothetical situation.

I still wouldn't go for items, because then where do we all agree on what to spawn and where?

 

[Zonderion]

Alright let's answer it. Even though if it has no shot of being in the game and hasn't been in any game or mod of a game let me take the time out to answer this hypothetical situation.

I still wouldn't go for items, because then where do we all agree on what to spawn and where?

I would propose a similar manner in which stages were selected, tested and banned. Thoughts?

 

[smashbro29]

I would propose a similar manner in which stages were selected, tested and banned. Thoughts?

There are so many more variables with that then there are with stages.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Make that way less confusing to read please.

Sorry, that was hard to read I agree. I was commenting on the fact that there are people who already pay money to entter events with items on, many are casual but to them the fact that items are on didn't make them not spend. So I was asking how does it hurt to let them do what they were doing already but using it to get them into our scene?

But it still stands that playing Brawl with items doesn't end up breaking any gambling laws in states either even though items are considered "random", and I was just trying to avoid that argument as it has been brought up in countless old items threads. It's funny, the government still considers play with items a competitive activity, take that for a laugh and with a grain of salt

 

[SmashChu]

The one thing I definitely agree with is the idea to bring in new people. One of the problems during Melee was that there was such a difference in how most people played and competitive Smash. This is where "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" came from. Having items one would allow people to get into the community which is what it needs the most.One thing to note from the EVO match, the third one, was the CPU won by clever item use. He was able to get the smash ball before Ken could react and set up a bumper kill (Ken tried the same and failed). So item knowledge definitly matters. The problem a lot of people have is fear of the unknown. What EVO proved was not that items could work, but that items could work and they mattered to the game. If you added items to Brawl in the main events, you would see a lot of up and comers start winning more.

I'm confused though, is the suggestion to simply make 3DS the item version and Wii U the... not item version? Why not allow both tourney types on both platforms? If I'm misunderstanding than ignore this section I guess.

I think the idea of regulating items but allowing them to be a factor is great. In my own personal life, me and my brothers have made a list of items in Brawl that we don't allow on whenever we are playing in anything even resembling a "serious" way. Hell even when we're just having fun matches we all have veto powers regarding what items to turn on.

I do believe that being able to play with items on should be promoted, since after all, it's not like the better player isn't still going to win most of the time. That "most" is what I've heard some people raise questions about, but honestly the better player only wins "most" of the time in no-item play anyway. There's always some element of "luck" whether it's in or outside the game.

This is a really good point.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The one thing I definitely agree with is the idea to bring in new people. One of the problems during Melee was that there was such a difference in how most people played and competitive Smash. This is where "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" came from. Having items one would allow people to get into the community which is what it needs the most.One thing to note from the EVO match, the third one, was the CPU won by clever item use. He was able to get the smash ball before Ken could react and set up a bumper kill (Ken tried the same and failed). So item knowledge definitly matters. The problem a lot of people have is fear of the unknown. What EVO proved was not that items could work, but that items could work and they mattered to the game. If you added items to Brawl in the main events, you would see a lot of up and comers start winning more.

I agree here.

This is a really good point.

And can agree here, but I'll just quote the guy who worded it better then I did:

It's just a matter of making it more parallel to no-item play as opposed to making it some unimportant little thing in the corner.

It sucks but if it's just thrown around as a side event the idea doesn't work. People won't want to join just to be a part of the "side event". If it's a main event in its own right, it has the chance for success.

 

[Ruthy]

i dont get this thread

 

[LiteralGrill]

i dont get this thread

Why?

 

[pitthekit]

Okay if we were to have fixed spawn locations for items it would always have to be the middle/neutral part of the stage.

If final destination is 100m long items should spawn in the middle or 50m away from the beginning of final destination.

The items should spawn in a linear non changeling time interval of 1 item per minute.

At the beginning of a match an item would not spawn as characters with high mobility,such as capt falcon would almost always get a free advantage.

Yay hypothetical situations!

@ Zonderion and smashbro dude

 

[smashbro29]

Okay if we were to have fixed spawn locations for items it would always have to be the middle/neutral part of the stage.

If final destination is 100m long items should spawn in the middle or 50m away from the beginning of final destination.

The items should spawn in a linear non changeling time interval of 1 item per minute.

At the beginning of a match an item would not spawn as characters with high mobility,such as capt falcon would almost always get a free advantage.

Yay hypothetical situations!

Seeing as this will never happen again I question why I would even bother answering it.

@ Zonderion and smashbro dude

Literally all you had to do was add 29 to that.

 

[Zonderion]

Seeing as this will never happen again I question why I would even bother answering it.

I completely agree that this option will probably never make it in. However, it is not impossible, just implausible. My efforts in asking you that hypothetical question was not to go to hypothetical town, but to determine if "randomness" was your fault with items being in tournaments, or if the idea of more external factors (other than the characters themselves) is a negative perception.

There are so many more variables with that then there are with stages.

I completely agree with this too, and while it can be extremely messy to try and deduce, it doesn't mean that its impossible to do. I could propose another hypothetical question, but I doubt that you would answer it.

Just for fun, here it is: Proposing that we could come up with a standard list of items, would this change your stance on items?

Literally all you had to do was add 29 to that.

Maybe he has a thing against 29?

 

[smashbro29]

I completely agree that this option will probably never make it in. However, it is not impossible, just implausible. My efforts in asking you that hypothetical question was not to go to hypothetical town, but to determine if "randomness" was your fault with items being in tournaments, or if the idea of more external factors (other than the characters themselves) is a negative perception.


I completely agree with this too, and while it can be extremely messy to try and deduce, it doesn't mean that its impossible to do. I could propose another hypothetical question, but I doubt that you would answer it.

Just for fun, here it is: Proposing that we could come up with a standard list of items, would this change your stance on items?



Maybe he has a thing against 29?

Like I usually say, I like the stages that aren't too powerful (obviously if the layout isn't screwy) if it's predictable so randomness is what's completely taking items off the table for me. If we could set the spawn locations and time intervals people would just complain about the settings agreed on for that.

If there was a standard list it still wouldn't solve the issue of them dropping in random spots at random times so even if it's fans only on very low I'm still against it.

 

[pitthekit]

I hate 29 as:

1)29 is not a perfect square
2) 29 is the sum 6.66 6.66 + 15.68- I dislike paranoid anagrams.
3) did you know on February 29, 1929 my great great grandma got cancer? She then died on September 29, 1929
4) 29 rhymes with 'plenty fines' symbolizing my impending doom when I play monopoly.

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

Honestly items seem like you'd have to ban way too many of them for it to be worthwhile. Standing on a slanted platform and a rolling crate appears (which can't be turned off separately from normal crates iirc)? Dead. Fan? Have fun taking 100%. Hammer or even worse, Golden Hammer? Have fun losing a stock. It's really just the innate randomness of items however that turn the fanbase off to them. You could be about to win, get a Poison Mushroom, and die and lose. THe main problem is just the randomness. If this is fixed, then maybe this is an option.

 

[Chiroz]

I hate 29 as:

1)29 is not a perfect square
2) 29 is the sum 6.66 6.66 + 15.68- I dislike paranoid anagrams.
3) did you know on February 29, 1929 my great great grandma got cancer? She then died on September 29, 1929
4) 29 rhymes with 'plenty fines' symbolizing my impending doom when I play monopoly.

I know you are joking and also I might be completely wrong on this but: I don't think 1929 was a leap year. They are normally multiples of 4, which 1929 isn't.


Also even though I have great respect for Zonderion and Capps I need to say something that might sound a bit jerkish.

Zonderion posted a hypothetical scenario which I'd like to answer.

At least in my personal experience (and even though I can't claim to speak for anyone I know of many, many people who also share this opinion), people just don't like items as an external factor.

Sure randomness is a huge No-No in this type of competitive game, but even if randomness was taken away and even if items were balanced in such a way that none of the items (or at least a good amount of them) gave an unfair advantage, and even if we could all agree on a certain list of items with a certain timer with certain locations, each different for every stage (we can't even agree on a stage list, agreeing on a item list, setting, timer and location per stage will be chaotic) many would still dislike items as a concept.

I myself am the kind of person who doesn't like "pets" in MMO's. I don't like secondary characters either (which is ironic because I play the only duo in Brawl) and as such item play has never been my type of thing.

Now that isn't to say item tournaments shouldn't happen, that isn't what I am saying. I am just saying that sometimes people make commentaries about how the "pro" community only make excuses for items to be off. But I invite you to think this way: Why is items on the correct way?

In my opinion? There is no correct way, they (items or no items) are both preference (although randomness does detract a lot from the overall competitive experience). And unfortunately for item lovers, No items is preferred by the great majority of this community and as such the rules imposed by this community for people in this community are No items based.

As such I invite anyone to try and grow a community around something like item play however they want, I am not against that I am actually very supportive of it as it could grow the community as a whole and from time to time I could give it a try to make things different.

But I will fight anyone who wants to replace No items demographic because thats the way I like to play and it's the way I would like to keep playing.

 

[D-idara]

If you gain the upper hand by pulling off a spike or getting a devastating combo you earned that all by yourself if an item fell close by to you and you used it to great effect who is to say your opponent wouldn't use it just as well?



Let's not go to hypothetical town.



I get that this is basically t-ball for competive smash but why baby new players?

Make more accesible =/= Baby, you want people to have to practice wavedash, right?

Brawl wasn't taken seriously because it wasn't Melee, plain and simple, these people will never move on...they even de-evolved Brawl into something hideous with horrible, uninspired stages and terrible, unimportant clone characters like Roy.

 

[D-idara]

Oops, double post.

 

[smashbro29]

Make more accesible =/= Baby, you want people to have to practice wavedash, right?

Brawl wasn't taken seriously because it wasn't Melee, plain and simple, these people will never move on...they even de-evolved Brawl into something hideous with horrible, uninspired stages and terrible, unimportant clone characters like Roy.

I'm actually against wavedashing being as difficult as it is and L-cancelling existing.

Brawl wasn't taken seriously because it's slow, you literally lose all your momentum jumping off the ground. You trip at random if you decide to run too much.

Project:M is great, people that call "clone" are the kind of people that can't understand an intricacy unless it's clearly spelled out for them. I bet you also hate Ken in Street Fighter because "it's just Ryu in red".

 

[SmashChu]

I know you are joking and also I might be completely wrong on this but: I don't think 1929 was a leap year. They are normally multiples of 4, which 1929 isn't.


Also even though I have great respect for Zonderion and Capps I need to say something that might sound a bit jerkish.

Zonderion posted a hypothetical scenario which I'd like to answer.

At least in my personal experience (and even though I can't claim to speak for anyone I know of many, many people who also share this opinion), people just don't like items as an external factor.

Sure randomness is a huge No-No in this type of competitive game, but even if randomness was taken away and even if items were balanced in such a way that none of the items (or at least a good amount of them) gave an unfair advantage, and even if we could all agree on a certain list of items with a certain timer with certain locations, each different for every stage (we can't even agree on a stage list, agreeing on a item list, setting, timer and location per stage will be chaotic) many would still dislike items as a concept.

I myself am the kind of person who doesn't like "pets" in MMO's. I don't like secondary characters either (which is ironic because I play the only duo in Brawl) and as such item play has never been my type of thing.

Now that isn't to say item tournaments shouldn't happen, that isn't what I am saying. I am just saying that sometimes people make commentaries about how the "pro" community only make excuses for items to be off. But I invite you to think this way: Why is items on the correct way?

In my opinion? There is no correct way, they (items or no items) are both preference (although randomness does detract a lot from the overall competitive experience). And unfortunately for item lovers, No items is preferred by the great majority of this community and as such the rules imposed by this community for people in this community are No items based.

As such I invite anyone to try and grow a community around something like item play however they want, I am not against that I am actually very supportive of it as it could grow the community as a whole and from time to time I could give it a try to make things different.

But I will fight anyone who wants to replace No items demographic because thats the way I like to play and it's the way I would like to keep playing.

Feel like that's not a reason. "People don't like Focus Cancel, so let's take it out." It doesn't work like that. You can't take a major part of the game because you don't like it, especially as it's a vital skill players use. Not to mention the majority of new people will have exposure to items. All taking out items does is specifically punish players who have strong skills and knowledge with items. Likewise, a big reason the community doesn't like them is they would have to learn how to use them and everyone will be on the same level in regards to item play. I also suspect that if they are on people will blame items for the reason they lost and not the fact they got outplayed (because you never get outplayed). This very attitude happened when CPU won EVO 08.

Case in point, you can't just remove something because "why not." Smash Brothers is more than 1v1 on FD. There are lots of skills you need which include dealing with stages and items. They are a part of the game.

 

[Chiroz]

Feel like that's not a reason. "People don't like Focus Cancel, so let's take it out." It doesn't work like that. You can't take a major part of the game because you don't like it, especially as it's a vital skill players use. Not to mention the majority of new people will have exposure to items. All taking out items does is specifically punish players who have strong skills and knowledge with items. Likewise, a big reason the community doesn't like them is they would have to learn how to use them and everyone will be on the same level in regards to item play. I also suspect that if they are on people will blame items for the reason they lost and not the fact they got outplayed (because you never get outplayed). This very attitude happened when CPU won EVO 08.

Case in point, you can't just remove something because "why not." Smash Brothers is more than 1v1 on FD. There are lots of skills you need which include dealing with stages and items. They are a part of the game.

Why is having them on the correct way of playing? Item options has been in Smash since 64.

Also you believe that all casuals turn on items, when that is not true. Even amongst casuals each group will have a different set of rules and each group will have a different list of items they like or don't like. Would you tell any of those groups that are wrong? Would you enforce ISP on someone who just likes "Pokeballs and Hammer"?

Would you go into a group of 10 friends who already have their own rules and tell them that they are playing the game wrong? Smashboards is just a bigger "group of players". You can't just demand we do things your way. That is why I said that I am not against someone like Capps who wants to try and raise a new scene for items, I support that and I admire him for trying to do it. But I don't like people who claim we are wrong playing the way we like and that we should change.

Also why don't we just play SFxTekken? Why play Smash at all? Smash isn't really a fighting game, we shouldn't take the essential out of fighting.

Where am I getting at? Playing Smash is a preference. Item list is a preference (albeit one which is geared towards balance and fairness). Playing with no items on is a preference.


PS: I've never liked playing with items, even when I was a kid. Me and my cousins would have a list of "allowed" items we could pick up and use. Amusingly we liked pokeballs and hammers which is what I listed up there (and which are terribly unbalanced), but it was our way of playing and in our small 4 person group, it was the rules we had.

Also note: I don't speak for the competitive community as a whole. I am one individual (although I am sure many, many more share my own opinions), so don't take this argument as more than it is.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Honestly items seem like you'd have to ban way too many of them for it to be worthwhile. Standing on a slanted platform and a rolling crate appears (which can't be turned off separately from normal crates iirc)? Dead. Fan? Have fun taking 100%. Hammer or even worse, Golden Hammer? Have fun losing a stock. It's really just the innate randomness of items however that turn the fanbase off to them. You could be about to win, get a Poison Mushroom, and die and lose. THe main problem is just the randomness. If this is fixed, then maybe this is an option.

Let's start witht he fact that you obviously didn't read the OP. So HUGE minus there.

Nextm you can turn off crates, fans are banned in ISP, the regular Hammer in Brawl was a BAD item because you can power shield it and backthrow someone to their death with no effort so it's no dangerous at all, Golden Hammer was banned in ISP, Poison Mushroom? Also banned in ISP. Every item you mentioned was either banned of the item you named wasn't dangerous at all.

READ THE OP PEOPLE!!!

Also, I like the current debate, I'm going to let you all go into it a bit more before I hop in as it's going really well, so don't think I'm ignoring things or something, I just don't want to interrupt a good conversation.

 

[D-idara]

Items are more fun. Period.

But competitive play'a not about fun.

 

[KingKirb]

The reason I will never support items in competitive mode is they don't reward skill, they reward luck of whoever picks up the item. You say they don't spawn near the losing player in brawl? Isn't it just as bad for them to spawn near the winning player?

Also, if you wanted an intelligent-seeming thread with no trolling, it would be wise not to call people idiots in your original post. That just kind of rubbed me the wrong way. You have an outsider opinion and you're telling people to "deal with how stupid they are."

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

Let's start witht he fact that you obviously didn't read the OP. So HUGE minus there.

Nextm you can turn off crates, fans are banned in ISP, the regular Hammer in Brawl was a BAD item because you can power shield it and backthrow someone to their death with no effort so it's no dangerous at all, Golden Hammer was banned in ISP, Poison Mushroom? Also banned in ISP. Every item you mentioned was either banned of the item you named wasn't dangerous at all.

READ THE OP PEOPLE!!!

Also, I like the current debate, I'm going to let you all go into it a bit more before I hop in as it's going really well, so don't think I'm ignoring things or something, I just don't want to interrupt a good conversation.

Not going to click on every single link to find a list of every single banned item.

But either way, banning like 3/4 of the items only to keep another 4th just seems pointless. Why go through all the trouble of testing all the items only to end up using like 10?

You could say the same could be said about stages, but generally stage picks are much much easier. Just look for any major hazards on the stage, and if there is one, it's probably banned. THen you only have to test like 10-15 stages, instead of the 40ish items, the item spawn rate, and everything else. Just seems like too much trouble to appease to a small group.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Also, if you wanted an intelligent-seeming thread with no trolling, it would be wise not to call people idiots in your original post. That just kind of rubbed me the wrong way. You have an outsider opinion and you're telling people to "deal with how stupid they are."

People are only idiots if they don't read the OP at all and then come in here and start talking nonsense, I'm not just calling everyone idiots. I don't have a problem with people who don't like items, I don't think thus far I've said anything bad about that opinion, it's valid and fine for people to have. People who say untrue things thus not adding to the discussion or just ignore the OP to say whatever they want thus hurting discussion deserve a bit of hassle for it.

On that note:

Not going to click on every single link to find a list of every single banned item.

• Almost all people who advocate for items DO NOT WANT BOB-OMBS ON. As the most rediculous of items are always mentioned in items debates it is best to remind people that to have items legal we would want to test them just like stages or any other tactics. A great example of this was Item Standard Play (or ISP).

For one, that sentence alone would allow you to not click on one of 5 links in this thread so reading and common sense would have done some good. But if that failed, 3 links of which were said to be matches and the other specifically said it was a poll, finding Item standard Play linked when it's the prime example of testing and not using extreme items and is even in a bullet point? If you don't have the time to actually be invested in the debate and learn things and have actual knowledge of what you are discussing, why are you here? Deespite tthat, I'll still answer you.

But either way, banning like 3/4 of the items only to keep another 4th just seems pointless. Why go through all the trouble of testing all the items only to end up using like 10?

You could say the same could be said about stages, but generally stage picks are much much easier. Just look for any major hazards on the stage, and if there is one, it's probably banned. THen you only have to test like 10-15 stages, instead of the 40ish items, the item spawn rate, and everything else. Just seems like too much trouble to appease to a small group.

Here's a good reason: you shouldn't ban things unless they are actually proven broken.

Minus that, can you risk NOT testing them? I can't say items "fix" Brawl but they do remove issues with planking, camping, and increase the speed matches are played at; all major problems in Brawl. Plus there is a possibility items could have helped decrease MK dominance by giving characters a better approach options with glide toss who lacked such options. So when we catered our ruleset to our preference, we ended up having to cater our ruleset around a character and various strategies that weren't an issue until we ourselves created them. Ironic right? Why risk doing something similar again when the tried and tested method of banning things in every other competitive fighter that has always worked perfectly can be used in Smash to have equal results?

Also it's a bad idea to get me started on stages, many of which TOs have banned only out of dislike and many TOs have admitted to banning stages even though they are perfectly fine for competition. Items may be different, but there are comparisons to be made for sure in terms of community attitude towards them. Really, I don't mind that people don't like items, I DON'T LIKE ITEMS. Crazy that I care for them to be tested then yes? Sometimes you can't always have what you like because when you do you risk destroying the integrity of the game you play.

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

You've answered most of my points, which I appreciate, but why honestly fix something that is working completely fine in the first place? A different meta? Sure. I don't really care. But let's face it: it's not going to become a huge thing. The community itself rejects items. This will only appeal to a very small limited group of players. It seems like something that's better suited for a small side event, not something that grows into something really big. There won't be that many players who take it seriously. Why try and make this seem like a huge issue when the majority of the scene is fine with something and it works fine? Item testing will imo just split the community when the game is just starting out, and will only cause the scene to weaken. IMO, if we get major problems like a Meta Knight again, then maybe we can look into items to try and fix it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You've answered most of my points, which I appreciate, but why honestly fix something that is working completely fine in the first place? A different meta? Sure. I don't really care. But let's face it: it's not going to become a huge thing. The community itself rejects items. This will only appeal to a very small limited group of players. It seems like something that's better suited for a small side event, not something that grows into something really big. There won't be that many players who take it seriously. Why try and make this seem like a huge issue when the majority of the scene is fine with something and it works fine? Item testing will imo just split the community when the game is just starting out, and will only cause the scene to weaken. IMO, if we get major problems like a Meta Knight again, then maybe we can look into items to try and fix it.

So instead of attempting to at least embrace items testing on a certain format, you suggest all of us refusing to even though loads of new players will do it anyways but more then likely in a worse fashion then us who know competitive smash? Loads of new people will come asking for items just like Brawl, why not have a sustainable format they can do so it while also providing a bridge between the casual and competitive smash player?

 

[Joe D.]

I am an offender of the first rule of this forum, so I deleted that post. I apologize.

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

So instead of attempting to at least embrace items testing on a certain format, you suggest all of us refusing to even though loads of new players will do it anyways but more then likely in a worse fashion then us who know competitive smash? Loads of new people will come asking for items just like Brawl, why not have a sustainable format they can do so it while also providing a bridge between the casual and competitive smash player?

The format will be extremely small at the very least. I never said anything about not allowing it as a separate format, I said it would be small and if done wrong it could split parts of the community. There won't even be as many new players this time due to poor Wii U sales, and the 3DS isn't doing anywhere near Wii numbers either.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Brawl wasn't taken seriously because it wasn't Melee, plain and simple, these people will never move on...they even de-evolved Brawl into something hideous with horrible, uninspired stages and terrible, unimportant clone characters like Roy.

How many times do we have to explain to you that Brawl receiving so much hate had NOTHING to do with not being Melee?? People dislike the game because it's SLOW, RANDOM (tripping), and overall was built with an ANTI COMPETITIVE mindset. Literally none of those points have anything to do with being Melee whatsoever. Also new =/= better. I'm guessing you also hate on people who still choose to play Street Fighter ll? MVC2? Counter Strike?

In terms of the subject at hand I'll never be able to support the addition of items unless if we were somehow able to give items fixed spawn points and times.

 

[Zonderion]

Also even though I have great respect for Zonderion and Capps I need to say something that might sound a bit jerkish.

Same for you, and it didn't sound jerkish at all. =)

Zonderion posted a hypothetical scenario which I'd like to answer.

At least in my personal experience (and even though I can't claim to speak for anyone I know of many, many people who also share this opinion), people just don't like items as an external factor.

Sure randomness is a huge No-No in this type of competitive game, but even if randomness was taken away and even if items were balanced in such a way that none of the items (or at least a good amount of them) gave an unfair advantage, and even if we could all agree on a certain list of items with a certain timer with certain locations, each different for every stage (we can't even agree on a stage list, agreeing on a item list, setting, timer and location per stage will be chaotic) many would still dislike items as a concept.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that this is the concept of items that Capps is wanting to change. People tend to go with the flow, or go with the crowd because they don't want conflict. Everyone wants to be liked and if there are people around saying items are bad, then they tend to agree to avoid strife. So while many do dislike items, it could be for the wrong reasons.

I myself am the kind of person who doesn't like "pets" in MMO's. I don't like secondary characters either (which is ironic because I play the only duo in Brawl) and as such item play has never been my type of thing.

But you are not an advocate against pets are you?

Now that isn't to say item tournaments shouldn't happen, that isn't what I am saying. I am just saying that sometimes people make commentaries about how the "pro" community only make excuses for items to be off. But I invite you to think this way: Why is items on the correct way?

The reason we are saying this, is because the current situation is that people do not allow items.

If it were the other way around, all tournaments had items, do you believe there would be a group of people advocating for no items? Of course there would be.

In my opinion? There is no correct way, they (items or no items) are both preference (although randomness does detract a lot from the overall competitive experience). And unfortunately for item lovers, No items is preferred by the great majority of this community and as such the rules imposed by this community for people in this community are No items based.

I agree that there is no "correct" way to play as fun is subjective. However, to automatically restrict fun for players who enjoy items on because of misinformation, I feel is wrong.

As such I invite anyone to try and grow a community around something like item play however they want, I am not against that I am actually very supportive of it as it could grow the community as a whole and from time to time I could give it a try to make things different.

Ditto.

But I will fight anyone who wants to replace No items demographic because thats the way I like to play and it's the way I would like to keep playing.

I don't think anyone is trying to replace the current regime of no items, but trying to increase the importance that items can have in tournaments. Obviously, you wouldn't opt to going to a tournament that only had items and therefore the support for those types of tournaments will be less.

My biggest fear is creating a bigger split in the community of having items and not having items. The last thing I feel Smash needs is more division. However, I am an advocate for fun, and if there are people who enjoy having items on and wants to see that come to fruition in a tournament setting, then I support that.