Let's talk about stages & camping in For Glory...

[topspin1617]

I'm no pro, and I'll admit I'm biased towards wanting more legal stages, but I actually feel like the 3DS has a number of viable stages. I'm not going to try to separate into Starter/Counterpick, but I think these stages could be competitively viable:

Tortimer Island
Find Mii
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Rainbow Road
PictoChat 2
Prism Tower
Boxing Ring
F-Zero SNES
Spirit Train
Tomodachi Collection
Gaur Plain
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
All Omega Versions

A lot of these may be controversial, but judging from what I've seen, I believe it is perfectly possible to have a fair fight on pretty much all these stages, unless there's something gamebreaking I'm missing about any of them.

And to prevent oversaturation of FD, the way I'd do stage selection after a first match would be that the loser of the previous match would be able to choose that he wants an Omega stage, and then the other player has the opportunity to pick which Omega stage. That way, they're more or less treated as a single stage.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm no pro, and I'll admit I'm biased towards wanting more legal stages, but I actually feel like the 3DS has a number of viable stages. I'm not going to try to separate into Starter/Counterpick, but I think these stages could be competitively viable:

Tortimer Island
Find Mii
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Rainbow Road
PictoChat 2
Prism Tower
Boxing Ring
F-Zero SNES
Spirit Train
Tomodachi Collection
Gaur Plain
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
All Omega Versions

A lot of these may be controversial, but judging from what I've seen, I believe it is perfectly possible to have a fair fight on pretty much all these stages, unless there's something gamebreaking I'm missing about any of them.

And to prevent oversaturation of FD, the way I'd do stage selection after a first match would be that the loser of the previous match would be able to choose that he wants an Omega stage, and then the other player has the opportunity to pick which Omega stage. That way, they're more or less treated as a single stage.

I'm going to copy your list and put the pros/cons I perceive for each. I generally agree across the list, but I can see some valid reasons.

Tortimer Island
Pros - Variable layout, water non-swimmable, no walkoff, no circlecamp, one very obvious and offstage hazard
Cons - Items from trees may be considered a con by some players, though I find it just opens item play to more characters than those who make their own. Boat can carry people off the side. Hazard exists.

Find Mii
Pros - Distinct platforms, unique layout
Cons - Large and powerful roaming hazard which can remove terrain for a long period of time. Floating solid cage. Narrow recovery tube biased towards wallkicks and against Ness. Unclear stat bonus properties.

Arena Ferox
Pros - Neutral form. Variable platform configurations encouraging shifting playstyles. Fire Emblem stage (personal bias)
Cons - Statues arguably block projectiles and attack hitboxes. Solid walls can cause fightclubs and camping like Pokemon Stadium 1

Reset Bomb Forest
Pros - Standard platform configuration in mode 1. Predictable hazard
Cons - Breakable platforms in mode 2. Hazard. Maybe largeish in mode 2 (don't have JP copy to test myself)

Rainbow Road
Pros - Versatile platform configurations
Cons - Occasional walkoffs. Shy Guy hazards. Some stops lack a clear main platform

PictoChat 2
Pros - Versatile platform configuration. Simple base form
Cons - Lots of damaging or physics-altering hazards.

Prism Tower
Pros - Versatile platform configuration.
Cons - Temporary walkoff. Induces motion sickness (personal issue)

Boxing Ring
Pros - Unique terrain layout. Ropes introduce a new means of aerial approach
Cons - Permanent walkoffs. Light hazard. Ceiling KO potential from lights. Ability to camp lights away from some characters entirely.

Mute City
Pros - Unique and nonstatic platform layout.
Cons - No bottom blast zone. Cars MIGHT be randomly timed (haven't seen enough to know).

Spirit Train
Pros - Variable platform layout
Cons - Shifting platform position relative to blast lines. Explosive hazards. No bottom blast line.

Tomodachi Life
Pros - Flat and Plat.
Cons - High chances of ceiling KO at high platforms. Some concerns of circle camping.

Gaur Plain
Pros - Unique platform configuration.
Cons - Few large platforms. Permanent walkoffs.

Battlefield
Pros - Flat and plat.
Cons - Platforms can interfere with vertical projectiles.

Final Destination
Pros - Flat.
Cons - Very long

Yoshi's Island
Pros - Slightly not-flat. Single predictable platform.
Cons - Random ghost platforms. Shyguys block projectiles.

All Omega Versions
Pros - Flat. Variable stage undersides.
Cons - Long (but is it variable compared to the default FD or are they all the same?)

 

[smashmachine]

I'm no pro, and I'll admit I'm biased towards wanting more legal stages, but I actually feel like the 3DS has a number of viable stages. I'm not going to try to separate into Starter/Counterpick, but I think these stages could be competitively viable:

Tortimer Island
Find Mii
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Rainbow Road
PictoChat 2
Prism Tower
Boxing Ring
F-Zero SNES
Spirit Train
Tomodachi Collection
Gaur Plain
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
All Omega Versions

A lot of these may be controversial, but judging from what I've seen, I believe it is perfectly possible to have a fair fight on pretty much all these stages, unless there's something gamebreaking I'm missing about any of them.

And to prevent oversaturation of FD, the way I'd do stage selection after a first match would be that the loser of the previous match would be able to choose that he wants an Omega stage, and then the other player has the opportunity to pick which Omega stage. That way, they're more or less treated as a single stage.

bold=ones I definitely think should be legal, italics are pretty borderline (also I would add Japes to the 2nd category, even if its been banned before)

 

[Unicorn Choke-Slam]

I have met countless toon links that do nothing but spam projectiles and then spam smash attacks when you get close, then occasionally they would use the Up-B. These people, i have given a derogatory term for, and that term is called "Boyscout". Smash bros 4 Boyscouts are people who do as described above, Camp at the end of the stage then spam arrows liek they are trying to get an archery merit badge. Nothing against actual boyscouts, but everything agains these players, given that i look at this tactic as uninteresting and annoying as hell to fight.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

All Omega Versions
Pros - Flat. Variable stage undersides.
Cons - Long (but is it variable compared to the default FD or are they all the same?)

All Omega forms seem to be the same length, as measured by # of side rolls to move from one side to the other. (Not my research, just paraphrasing.) I would assume they're the same length as FD itself too.

 

[Raijinken]

I have met countless toon links that do nothing but spam projectiles and then spam smash attacks when you get close, then occasionally they would use the Up-B. These people, i have given a derogatory term for, and that term is called "Boyscout". Smash bros 4 Boyscouts are people who do as described above, Camp at the end of the stage then spam arrows liek they are trying to get an archery merit badge. Nothing against actual boyscouts, but everything agains these players, given that i look at this tactic as uninteresting and annoying as hell to fight.

Wouldn't "Sniper" be an equally suitable term, from a video game sense?

But yeah, those sort of players are like button mashers in standard fighters. It works until you learn the drawbacks of the attacks, and then it utterly fails.

 

[Unicorn Choke-Slam]

Wouldn't "Sniper" be an equally suitable term, from a video game sense?

But yeah, those sort of players are like button mashers in standard fighters. It works until you learn the drawbacks of the attacks, and then it utterly fails.

I have only met ONE good user that plays this way, and i could tell because he would camp and spam, but he knew how to punish and punish hard, it seems that most users of this look at this tactic as an easy way to score wins without much effort, but it ultimately ends up with them getting styled on.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Mute City
Pros - Unique and nonstatic platform layout.
Cons - No bottom blast zone. Cars MIGHT be randomly timed (haven't seen enough to know).

Spirit Train
Pros - Variable platform layout
Cons - Shifting platform position relative to blast lines. Explosive hazards. No bottom blast line.

If you don't want to hit the bottom anyways (Mute City's I seem to recall having really high knockback and I've heard Spirit Train's is like Big Blue), is it really a con that there's no blast zone down there? What's the difference between me meteor smashing you to the depths and me meteor smashing you into a road that blasts you through the top blast zone?

 

[Raijinken]

If you don't want to hit the bottom anyways (Mute City's I seem to recall having really high knockback and I've heard Spirit Train's is like Big Blue), is it really a con that there's no blast zone down there? What's the difference between me meteor smashing you to the depths and me meteor smashing you into a road that blasts you through the top blast zone?

I don't see it as a real drawback, I just seem to recall a lot of conservative-stage-list people considering it a major issue. I personally love the look of the stage and think it would be great.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I have only met ONE good user that plays this way, and i could tell because he would camp and spam, but he knew how to punish and punish hard, it seems that most users of this look at this tactic as an easy way to score wins without much effort, but it ultimately ends up with them getting styled on.

Now imagine you fight several of these types of players in a row...imagine after months of training there are an endless number of folks who've mastered the same tactic. The kind of players you can't just simply "style on".

For Glory not soundin' so fun, yeah?

Everyone keeps acting like I'm talking about newbies or something. Like once you finally close in on the player they just fall apart and die, it just doesn't work like that with skilled players.

 

[Unicorn Choke-Slam]

Now imagine you fight several of these types of players in a row...imagine after months of training there are an endless number of folks who've mastered the same tactic. The kind of players you can't just simply "style on".

For Glory not soundin' so fun, yeah?

Dear God no. Please stop giving me nightmare fuel.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Dear God no. Please stop giving me nightmare fuel.

That right there is what I'm talking about. I've begun to notice signs of said nightmare fuel...which is why I'm looking forward to and hoping for the potential variety in the 3DS stage list for solace.

As it stands I plan to train mostly on Yoshis Island with my friends to avoid the matches that make me want to pull my hair out (win or lose).

 

[kataridragon]

Let me end this discussion.

It's just like Street Fighter. If your playing against a fireball/projectile character and don't have tools to deal with it you better make something up and deal with it. #NotAB***h

 

[topspin1617]

Now imagine you fight several of these types of players in a row...imagine after months of training there are an endless number of folks who've mastered the same tactic. The kind of players you can't just simply "style on".

For Glory not soundin' so fun, yeah?

Everyone keeps acting like I'm talking about newbies or something. Like once you finally close in on the player they just fall apart and die, it just doesn't work like that with skilled players.

The thing is, I think defensive, walling camping isn't going to be nearly as effective in Smash 4 as it was in Brawl. It just feels like the Smash 4 engine is more favorable for an attacking player to be able to get through, if he's good enough to take advantage of the openings.

Of course you could be completely right, but I just think at the very least we don't see much reason to be pessimistic on this issue (yet).

 

[Deleted member 245254]

The thing is, I think defensive, walling camping isn't going to be nearly as effective in Smash 4 as it was in Brawl. It just feels like the Smash 4 engine is more favorable for an attacking player to be able to get through, if he's good enough to take advantage of the openings.

Of course you could be completely right, but I just think at the very least we don't see much reason to be pessimistic on this issue (yet).

I'm not worried about camping being the absolute best tactic for every circumstance in Smash 3DS but it is certainly a somewhat favorable one in For Glory.

 

[guedes the brawler]

uh, guys? As much as i like this discussion, isn't there another topic or two about what stages will be legal and similar results?

this is about FOR GLORY, specifically about camping, isn't it?

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

Ok now that the wii u version is out and for glory is still the same I can say my input and that is its just a stage issue characters that do really good on FD are gonna be good in a game mode where FD is the only stage played to be honest I wouldn't worry to much about it as its not a true test of skill or tournament rule set where counter pick and bans are important factors

 

[dahuterschuter]

I switched to leading with Fox for exactly this reason.

In For Glory you're going in blind and I'd say with the amount of just Links and Toon Links you're already sitting at a positive probability any given match is going to be a spamper. So basically, they're welcome to start charging that arrow, because it just means I put up my reflector and they're already locked into a full charge and have to fire. Then they sit back and try to get me to approach, an offer which I refuse and instead just fire lasers at them to force an approach. Then we play the close game for a while until they try to start spamming again because they apparently think something has changed, and I just shut it down again.

I swear, I've had Links quit when they realized their garbage wasn't going to work. Another time I'd shield through all this one guy's projectiles and once I reached him he started rolling to the other side of the stage, so I started rolling with him. For upwards of forty seconds, the match became some sort of comedy routine of this guy rolling back and forth across the stage trying to get away from me while I rolled exactly with him.

I wish Sakurai hadn't decided to make a joke of the competitive players and implement the FD only meme as a Sm4sh institution. For Glory needs at least Battlefield to even out the current stage bias towards certain characters. All they have to do is implement a random mix of Omega Stages, Battlefield, and maybe Big Battlefield. But they ain't gonna do that, and FG will just be this way forever.