Let's talk about Phantom: Week 2 - New WINDBOX OP? How can we ultilize?

[Katy Parry]

WEEK 2 OF PHANTOM DISCUSSION: NEW WINDBOX OP!





Hi there guys, I'm sure this is already discovered, but not sure if it's been talked about or considered in competitive play. We all know what B Reversing is, so why not B reverse Phantom?

As you know, Zelda hired a Phantom so people would stop taking her lunch money, but not very many people are using the Phantom. In almost ALL competitive play I watch (including top players like Nario) NO ONE uses Phantom.

Why?

Well, obvious. Phantom, while neat in theory and on paper (and in that trailer in April of last year, hype as ****) can easily be figured out quickly. Just jump over it. Or run away. Zelda can't follow with it. If we're lucky, we'll get off the second hit of the fully charged Phantom because people forget in the heat of battle, or you catch someone out of an air dodge.

It always feels great to get off a kill with Phantom. Because it's hard against a good player. Or Kirby.

So why not use it differently?


Turns out, you can easily B turn the Phantom on the ground, even while running.

Just run, down B, and immediately tap the opposite direction while holding B. Zelda will INSTANTLY face the other direction and start charging. pretty nice in certain situations.

Let's try one more thing. Let's use it in the AIR.

If Zelda runs away, jumps, and then starts Phantom and snaps the other direction, she will Phantom Bounce in the opposite direction, using the momentum of her jump to throw her towards her opponent (or away, whichever you're wanting, you did the input, not me)

I will get a video of this later, and again, I'm sure people know about it. But we should really talk about how this could really catch people off guard. Phantom is another kill move in Zelda's arsenal and it does ******** damage. (28%) like....

I've had several scenarios with using this tool to effectively get kills. It's effective on Smashville as well, with the moving platform. When your opponent has no option but to land on the platform when it's on the same side they're recovering from on Smashville, a fully charged Phantom will cover where they're needing to land.

FURTHERMORE, REGARDING CUSTOMS

This could allow you to be able to get off Breaker more often than usual, but Phantom Bouncing IMO is MUCH more useful with Phantom Strike. Since it charges fully the fastest, Zelda has a safe 'jump away from an attack or approach and come back in with a gimp or solid 28% damage"

This gives Zelda a great defensive option. She can come back towards people in interesting ways with a ranged attack.

Here's a video (NOT ONE I MADE, I WILL MAKE MY OWN GUIDE LATER)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrfWkU5vhrg

This video at least shows the idea. DO NOT follow his weird description of how to use it. He's wrong.

I placed 7th with Zelda at SHUFFL last year in 3DS. If I had known about this I think I could have done a lot better.

 

[r_greening1]

Honestly I've thinking about bringing this up, but I've been trying to make it find ways to make it work effectively for default phantom. Usually with the default, I'll run away so the opponent can initiate a chase then I'll jump and wavebounce the phantom, but more often than not they're too close and it'll whiff because Sakurai. I was also trying to get the retreating phantom jump to work consistantely, any tips? Like you mentioned, I personally think that the retreating phantom is more useful for the default than the wavebounce, but I think the phantom customs would be great for it. I'm interested to see what else you can find about it.

 

[evmaxy54]

It's called a B-reverse. She can do this with NL & DF as well (though the former is p much useless outside running off ledges). There are characters who can use this technique much better than what Zelda can so it isn't particularly necessary for her (unlike for ROB for example).

Considering how incredibly laggy Phantom is it should only be used as a mix up or going underneath stages like BF or something. Also the guy's description is right you can roll the the control stick in a circle quarter movement (makes it much easier to do imo).

You would do much better if you find a way to practice getting Elevator OoS all the time (& getting the right direction if they DI'd properly)

 

[DoctorDub]

This video was uploaded a few days ago and explores this technique. It's called B-reversing and every character can do it.
The vid explains how it's done and how it can be used in general.

 

[Katy Parry]

*sigh* I knew this would happen.

I know what B reversing is, I don't think I discovered a new technique. I'm saying we need to use Phantom mainly in this manner because it makes the move usable.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

honestly I thought about this, but phantom is so situational I feel like outside of a few spacing antics against swords, butit wont add too much to Zelda in the long run. But since I like phantom and Sakurai took my wavebounce dins away I might work on exploring this anyway.

 

[evmaxy54]

honestly I thought about this, but phantom is so situational I feel like outside of a few spacing antics against swords, butit wont add too much to Zelda in the long run. But since I like phantom and Sakurai took my wavebounce dins away I might work on exploring this anyway.

You can still do wavebounce Dins

 

[JigglyZelda003]

You can still do wavebounce Dins

well not the way i could do wavebounce Dins, Sakurai stole that from me :v

 

[Zylach]

I had actually been experimenting with this as a landing option since Zelda doesn't have any and a momentum reverse can be just as helpful as landing with an attack but it's so laggy that, even if I avoid a Mario usmash for example, I'll get usmashed while in endlag anyway. I've tried with Nayru's Love as well with the same results. Haven't tried Wavebouncing Din's. I'll have to experiment with that as well. Actually, I just need to work on wavebouncing period. Seems like it could be more useful for Zelda than just plain b-reversing her specials.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

in brawl wavebounced Dins was really just a gimmicky attempt to camp because you flew back as Dins went forward giving you extra space but since Dins causes freefall it really had little practical use lol

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

I use wavebounce Din's a lot actually and have been doing so for a long time, but never after jumping off a platform. That's suicide. Only a short hop from the middle of the stage, or from the ledge inward. It's good to keep distance so you can stay safe, but isn't always too useful because of how laggy Din's is. I'll mainly use it just for landing traps.

As for the Phantom.... No... Just no. They need to do something to this move, I don't know what though. It's a great concept, but how it was executed wasn't great. Like Zylach said above, chances are that you'll get hit when the attack is coming out, and it's extremely easy to dodge, making it useless. I haven't quite experimented with a reversed Phantom though, so if I find any clear uses I'll report back.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i did an accidental reverse wavebounce Phantom yesterday. Zelda shifts really far if she does it in the air like almost a roll distance behind her opponent so it could potentially have some nitch uses as an approach mixup on shielding opponents because you'll land behind them with Phantom in front of you. will need to test this

 

[evmaxy54]

i did an accidental reverse wavebounce Phantom yesterday. Zelda shifts really far if she does it in the air like almost a roll distance behind her opponent so it could potentially have some nitch uses as an approach mixup on shielding opponents because you'll land behind them with Phantom in front of you. will need to test this

Can you post a recording of this please I need to see this? =3

 

[Katy Parry]

i did an accidental reverse wavebounce Phantom yesterday. Zelda shifts really far if she does it in the air like almost a roll distance behind her opponent so it could potentially have some nitch uses as an approach mixup on shielding opponents because you'll land behind them with Phantom in front of you. will need to test this

I told you guys, it has such weird movement properties, using it in the air was my point entirely. You jump away or you use it RIGHT as you jump and you can avoid attacks and punish with the phantom.

I actually like running, reverse jump, b turn phantom. It's a way to still charge in front of you, but be more precise.

B turning the move allows you to be more precise. You can b-turn while running.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

First video is regular phantom, excuse shaky quality of video and BTS sounds lol

second is Phantom strike(?) phantom 3. i think is overall the better choice

 

[Zylach]

First video is regular phantom, excuse shaky quality of video and BTS sounds lol

second is Phantom strike(?) phantom 3. i think is overall the better choice

The background noises make it sound like I'm in Rapture (Bioshock 1 and 2 if you're not familiar) playing smash. I approve. Also, these just look like they're B-reversed. Is that right?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

The background noises make it sound like I'm in Rapture (Bioshock 1 and 2 if you're not familiar) playing smash. I approve. Also, these just look like they're B-reversed. Is that right?

yes that's right. i can see some nitch use but the blindspot on regular phantom makes me wonder how useful this could be as a whole. it should be looked into some more

 

[Zylach]

I know I had only used B-reversed phantom as a momentum shift and, when people figured out that they could punish me for that, I basically stopped using phantom altogether save for rare mixups and rare edgeguards.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

I know I had only used B-reversed phantom as a momentum shift and, when people figured out that they could punish me for that, I basically stopped using phantom altogether save for rare mixups and rare edgeguards.

I've found that a reverse phantom is actually good in the Sonic matchup for guarding the ledge. When they do that crazy spin dash jump that propels them really far to recover, chances are they'll go over the ledge. If you jump back and start charging and fire out a phantom right before they get to you, you'll knock them back away. I was using this against an actually skilled Sonic (that got a 74% lead on me when he had 0%) and it worked really well. I ended up winning because he couldn't adapt to it. Of course it's still very situational, but hey, that's another use for the move.

 

[Katy Parry]

First video is regular phantom, excuse shaky quality of video and BTS sounds lol

second is Phantom strike(?) phantom 3. i think is overall the better choice

Thank you so much for the videos. I'm going to try to make a highlight somehow (with a capture card) of when reverse Phantoms are effective.


Battlefield is very good for reverse Phantom use. The platforms allow you to edgeguard in interesting ways, and the phantom pokes the ledge at full charge.

You can knock someone off the stage, run to the middle and jump away, start to charge the phantom and turn it so you land on the top platform to throw the Phantom.

 

[Agecaf]

I didn't see this posted already, so I'd like to mention it; There's another way to b-reverse the phantom;

1) Run away from enemy,
2) Jump backwards (towards enemy),
3) Down B
4) quickly move pad towards enemy (just like when B-reversing)

That should leave you with the phantom charging towards the enemy, but your momentum is reversed, away from your enemy. This leaves you with some much desired distance, and the b-reversing will make the enemy think you'll go towards them, which means you probably won't have anyone rushing towards you..

It's a bit complicated / confusing to use, and to be honest I haven't done it outside of training mode, but it could potentially be useful..

 

[Katy Parry]

I didn't see this posted already, so I'd like to mention it; There's another way to b-reverse the phantom;

1) Run away from enemy,
2) Jump backwards (towards enemy),
3) Down B
4) quickly move pad towards enemy (just like when B-reversing)

That should leave you with the phantom charging towards the enemy, but your momentum is reversed, away from your enemy. This leaves you with some much desired distance, and the b-reversing will make the enemy think you'll go towards them, which means you probably won't have anyone rushing towards you..

It's a bit complicated / confusing to use, and to be honest I haven't done it outside of training mode, but it could potentially be useful..

I hear what you're saying, never thought to use it like that.

 

[Zylach]

I didn't see this posted already, so I'd like to mention it; There's another way to b-reverse the phantom;

1) Run away from enemy,
2) Jump backwards (towards enemy),
3) Down B
4) quickly move pad towards enemy (just like when B-reversing)

That should leave you with the phantom charging towards the enemy, but your momentum is reversed, away from your enemy. This leaves you with some much desired distance, and the b-reversing will make the enemy think you'll go towards them, which means you probably won't have anyone rushing towards you..

It's a bit complicated / confusing to use, and to be honest I haven't done it outside of training mode, but it could potentially be useful..

This is actually the most useful way I could imagine this being used though I'm not quite sure how much more useful it is compared to simply running away, jumping in the same direction you're running, and charging phantom in the direction the opponent is. I'll try it out. I really want these tricks to work because phantom is basically unused in my arsenal right now.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Nevermind me

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Okay, so, almost every time I use the Phantom now it's being reversed. It's the most useful way to use it, as opposed to being a sitting duck. It's still situational, but it helps a lot when you can't use your other options for guarding the ledge reliably. Some of those characters' recoveries just aren't worth going offstage or doing something else unsafe. At least this gives us a bit of breathing room and space between us and our opponent. I've gotten several KO's (then again it's For Glory) by hitting people that recover high with this tactic.

 

[Zylach]

Yeah, I can utilize it more on FG but FG is nothing compared to offline tournament settings. I guess it's a good place to experiment though and it sounds like it can be successful, especially as an edgeguarding tool in particular. There are so many characters that we just can't challenge offstage and I find myself sitting on stage just waiting to punish their ledge getups instead of being aggressive like I usually am against other characters. I've also been curious if it works well with phantom breaker since it covers mid range fairly well as is though the endlag still hurts it. Maybe with these strats, it'll be a good choice alongside strike which is currently the only viable phantom custom?

 

[Katy Parry]

So with this recent "buff" per sey, and the fact I don't have access to my Wii U currently due to moving recently, can anyone explain and discuss how we can use this new tech? I have truly tried to pioneer Phantom tech, so I'm dying inside.

Can anyone post a video or gif as well? I'd be eternally grateful.

 

[Zylach]

Some gifs are in the Zelda Social right now of the new phantom silliness. I believe @D3RK has those. Basically, it's not a windbox. It's a 0% hitbox that pushes opponents into the hitboxes that actually hurt. It's not perfect but it's significantly better than it was. It'll even push opponents offstage with the phantom and launch them from offstage. I've seen it work behind Zelda as well. Since it has a travelling hitbox, she can use it to control space now despite her massive endlag on it since it has good range and tremendous hitboxes plus the walling properties keep people from approaching from the ground. Some problems I've had so far: Opponents can still roll dodge towards us as phantom rushes towards them and punish us because endlag is a *****. Furthermore, opponents that jump are still fairly safe although the new 0% hitbox is pretty big. I've been SH retreating while charging to keep opponents away from me while having a shot at doing 25% to them at the same time.

 

[Katy Parry]

Some gifs are in the Zelda Social right now of the new phantom silliness. I believe @D3RK has those. Basically, it's not a windbox. It's a 0% hitbox that pushes opponents into the hitboxes that actually hurt. It's not perfect but it's significantly better than it was. It'll even push opponents offstage with the phantom and launch them from offstage. I've seen it work behind Zelda as well. Since it has a travelling hitbox, she can use it to control space now despite her massive endlag on it since it has good range and tremendous hitboxes plus the walling properties keep people from approaching from the ground. Some problems I've had so far: Opponents can still roll dodge towards us as phantom rushes towards them and punish us because endlag is a *****. Furthermore, opponents that jump are still fairly safe although the new 0% hitbox is pretty big. I've been SH retreating while charging to keep opponents away from me while having a shot at doing 25% to them at the same time.

Dude, we met at Smash n Splash. I'm Justy. Haha. I KNEW I met you.

Okay now reading. >_>

 

[Zylach]

Lol, that's right. You told me you were Ethan Rodgers. Should've known this phantom advocate was also that phantom advocate

Looks like Sakurai has heard you.

 

[Katy Parry]

Lol, that's right. You told me you were Ethan Rodgers. Should've known this phantom advocate was also that phantom advocate

Looks like Sakurai has heard you.

I AM FANGIRLING RIGHT NOW

Gathering as much data as I can!

 

[Zylach]

I AM FANGIRLING RIGHT NOW

Gathering as much data as I can!

Holy hell your fangirling is flashy! lol. So many seizures!

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

I'll try to test out how well the new hitbox can ruin recoveries soon. From what I've experienced online, it wrecks Ike's recovery even harder. I've also noticed that when someone behind you rolls in front of you as you fire your Phantom, they delightfully slide away (and hopefully into the actual hitbox, but just traveling away is good too). Perhaps we can use this as a roll punish in some way? I'm wondering how well this could be used if released in the air as well to cancel out aerial approaches (as I pulled it off a couple times earlier).

I've always tried to incorporate the Phantom into my playstyle (mostly as a baiting tool), and I can really feel how much more effective it is now. It's still situational and shouldn't be used too much, but now when you can use it, it's much more rewarding... I wonder how much worse a reflected Phantom is now...

 

[Zylach]

I've been getting phantom kills consistently on cpu's when they roll from ledges because phantom covers them so well now.

 

[Katy Parry]

Anyone else trying anything new or finding effective?

 

[MOI-ARI]

Hmm I haven't tried this out but, Since Phantom pulls in people behind her and drags them in front of them into its slash.

I wonder if you can do Phantom towards the stage if they are recovering low, and would it suck them into the wall or slash and StageHit/Spike? Like on smashvile, i can see Phantom pulling people under it, and slashing them. In result, spike them if they fail to tech?

Idunno something my brain just farted out.

 

[Rickster]

Phantom pretty much destroys Ike's Aether, and possibly Kirby's too. They either get pushed away from the ledge (to which they'll continue the move and die) or they'll get hit, taking damage and possibly being gimped or outright KO'd. We should test what other recoveries we can mess with.

Also this was in before but we should try blocking Lucas's and Ness's recovery with it. The distance they travel is much shorter if they hit something, so throwing it out in front of them might actually gimp them.

With the removal of blindspots this move can now cover getup options quite well. It can cover ledge roll and ledge getup (make sure to roll to the very edge so you'll be behind them). On an opponent who didn't tech, it can cover regular getup, getup attack, back roll (if you're close enough) and forward roll (if they can't roll far enough to get behind you).

I feel like this move could become very good now that it's major problems have been fixed.

 

[Katy Parry]

What about jumping offstage and reversing phantom to charge and start a position to hit certain recoveries...as your falling? you know, so you can level out when to throw it?

Like, Zelda jumps over marth as he gets closer to the edge, she b turns and starts charging phantom

So she basically has a punish ready to his recovery

In fact, I know this works because I did this during a friendly against a Marth


I released phantom as he used Dolphin Slash and it hit him at just the right time to stage spike him

Phantom is good for when your opponent is forced into an option I feel, that's how we should use it to edge guard.

 

[Zylach]

What about jumping offstage and reversing phantom to charge and start a position to hit certain recoveries...as your falling? you know, so you can level out when to throw it?

Like, Zelda jumps over marth as he gets closer to the edge, she b turns and starts charging phantom

So she basically has a punish ready to his recovery

In fact, I know this works because I did this during a friendly against a Marth


I released phantom as he used Dolphin Slash and it hit him at just the right time to stage spike him

Phantom is good for when your opponent is forced into an option I feel, that's how we should use it to edge guard.

I've been thinking of doing this myself especially against characters that are difficult to gimp like anyone with a teleport or invulnerable recovery so the multiple hitboxes of phantom have a chance to catch them during the 1 frame ledge snap vulnerability and stage spiking them.

 

[Macchiato]

Phantom pretty much destroys Ike's Aether, and possibly Kirby's too. They either get pushed away from the ledge (to which they'll continue the move and die) or they'll get hit, taking damage and possibly being gimped or outright KO'd. We should test what other recoveries we can mess with.

Also this was in before but we should try blocking Lucas's and Ness's recovery with it. The distance they travel is much shorter if they hit something, so throwing it out in front of them might actually gimp them.

With the removal of blindspots this move can now cover getup options quite well. It can cover ledge roll and ledge getup (make sure to roll to the very edge so you'll be behind them). On an opponent who didn't tech, it can cover regular getup, getup attack, back roll (if you're close enough) and forward roll (if they can't roll far enough to get behind you).

I feel like this move could become very good now that it's major problems have been fixed.

For lucas and ness' recovery, I feel like din's fire is good. You can either hit them or the thunder to gimp them.