Let's Talk About Big Battlefield

[clydeaker]

Please read the thread before you vote.

Let's talk about Big Battlefield.

According to the [Meta] Stage Legality Discussion Thread: as of Thursday, June 8th, 2015 the stage Big Battlefield is listed in the banned section. I noticed there wasn't a discussion thread listed on the subject of Big Battlefield so I decided to make one.

According to @ Ulevo , the author of the Stage Legality Discussion Thread:, quote: "The stages listed under banned are usually not controversial, and are generally accepted as uncompetitive stages for tournaments." I may be missing something here, but to me Big Battlefield is by far one of the most "competitive" stages In Super Smash Bros. for Wii U for both singles and doubles alike.

There aren't any hazard, bosses, caves of life, walk-off blast lines or walls, moving platforms, Grass increasing friction, non wall jump-able walls, Walled in underside of the stage, abnormal blast lines. stupid ledges, or stage transitions. Heck! It's basically an amplified version of on of the most "competitive" stages in all of Smash!. That stage is Smashville Battlefield. It deserves to be at least under the suspect category (Ha ha, I guess we're doing that right now by discussing it )

There are three major things holding Big Battlefield back from being a legal stage.
1 - It's "too big" for competitive play.
2 - Matches will take too long. Tournament's won't be as efficient.
3 - We already have a better and smaller version of the stage, Battlefield.


1 - The only reason I know of for why Big Battlefield is widely banned (except sometimes in doubles) is because it's supposedly "too big." for "competitive" play. Although Big Battlefield was specifically designed for 8-Player Smash, it's just as functional in normal Smash. Kongo Jungle (80+% consider it legal) is arguably just as big as Big Battlefield and has more controversial issues such as barrel camping. Battlefield hardly has any issues and is considered one of the best stages in the game, Big Battlefield is the exact same on a slightly larger scale. It's also around the same size as the stage Town and City.

2 - Most people are worried about the match taking too long. Time constraints seem to be the biggest thing holding this stage back from being legal. People use a similar argument when arguing for 2 stock over 3. Although 2 stock is less accurate it's less time consuming making tournaments more efficient. The same goes for adding a new stage like Big Battlefield.
Although it adds to the stage options, and a larger stage making deaths harder to get means more accuracy (and time) the match. The thing is just like battlefield characters can get killed at lower percents from the edges or upper platforms. Much lower percents than on Final Destination where there are no platforms. Surprisingly the matches on Big Battlefield don't take much longer than on Battlefield. around one maybe two more at most in single.

Mario dies from Bowser's fully charged forward smash at 36% on the top platform as judged by the appearance of black lightning. On Big Battlefield, a Mario on the top platform dies from the same attack at 42%.

3 - The final reason people don't want to legalize Big Battlefield is because we already have Battlefield legal. Why would we need a larger more obnoxious variation of the same stage. This is kind of like the omega stage and Final Destination debate but to less of an extent. Some people would rather play on Final Destination only and ban or counter pick the omega stages so you don't have to deal with them. other would rather treat each omega stage as it's own. I would say by adding Big Battlefield your adding to the stage variation, even if it's not a starter it would be a good counter pick. There aren't any stage gimmicks like most counter picks and it's still

Here are the results from The Ultimate Smash 4 Ruleset Poll regarding Big Battlefield as of Thursday, June 8th, 2015:

Spoiler

- 17.6% say it should be banned altogether.
- 1.1% Don't know.
- 20.2% think it deserves to be tested before calling its legality.
- 47.8% of people think Big Battlefield should only be allowed in doubles.
- 13.4% think it should be legal in both singles and doubles.

- 81.4% (4/5) are willing to test or agree that Big Battlefield should at least be legal in doubles.
- 33.6% (1/3) are willing to test or agree that Big Battlefield should be legal in both singles and doubles.

- 31.9% think it should be out right banned altogether.
- 3% don't know.
- 14.8% think it deserves some testing before calling it's legality.
- 12.3% think it should be a doubles only counter pick.
- 27.7% think it should be a doubles only starter.
- 6.9% think it should be a singles and doubles counter pick.
- 3.4% think it should be a singles and doubles starter.

According to the Banned stage article the following are common reasons for why a stage is banned:

Spoiler

- Especially poor match-up balance by providing a rather extreme advantage for certain characters.

Battlefield is by far one of the most even match-up stage in the game. Big Battlefield is the exact same on a slightly bigger scale.​

- Allowing players to abuse glitches in the game.

No abusable stage glitches are publicly known at the moment and if there are, they would probably be fixed in future patches.​

- Possessing one or more "caves of life."

N/A​

- Possessing permanent walk-off blast-lines and walls.

N/A​

- Drastically altering game play and the strategies needed to win.

Big Battlefield does alter the game play a bit from Battlefield, however it's not drastic enough to be banned.​

- Possessing elements that causes the stage to be too strenuous on the system's CPU and thus being capable of reducing the game's frame rate mid-match.

None that I know of.​

None of these reasons apply to Big Battlefield being banned meaning the only reason it's banned is because of an obscure or silly reason.

Sources:
- [Meta] Stage Legality Discussion Thread:: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-discussion-thread.401784/.
- [Data] Big Battlefield: Stage Research: http://smashboards.com/threads/big-battlefield-stage-research.385980/.
- [Data] Battlefield: Stage Research: http://smashboards.com/threads/battlefield-stage-research.385975/.
- Banned Stage: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Banned_stage.
- Big Battlefield: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Big_Battlefield.

What do you think?

 

[Ulevo]

My first argument against this stage is that it is too large. Comparing it to KJ64 seems inappropriate; I am quite sure Big Battlefield is larger overall. The horizontal blast zones from the ledges might not be, but the entirety of the stage, yes.

For those of you who think 'too large' is not an actual thing, my second argument would be that circle camping would be a genuine concern here. I know as Meta Knight I could run away from certain characters here for days, but I am sure there are plenty of abuse cases.

I also want to point out that the poll should be a "Yes" and "No" option, otherwise you're going to distort poll results.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

At first blush it seems appropriate for a doubles-only stage. That said, any doubles match ever will eventually devolve into either 1v1 or 2v1 situations, which sort of puts us right back at square one of "is the stage too big?" (Arguably less of an issue in 2v1 where the 2 can pincer the 1 and block off his routes if he tries to be campy?)

 

[PUK]

On one hand the risk of being camped by faster characters is real.
On the other hand doubles lack a really big stage in his stage list.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also, for the sake of information, the main (only?) reason Fountain of Dreams was banned for doubles in Melee is because 4 players reflecting in the water could cause lag. Especially if the Ice Climbers were involved.

Needless to say I don't think that's an issue in 4 for various reasons.

 

[RayNoire]

I actually don't see a problem with this stage at all. Circle camping maybe, but I'd need to see it in action.

 

[clydeaker]

I don't get how someone can circle camp on Big Battlefield. I though you had to move around a solid object between you and your opponent.cant they just go strait for you? And if there is camping wouldn't there be camping on battlefield as well?

 

[Kai_64]

I mean I sometimes circle camp with wario on Regular battlefield... Big Battlefield would be crazy. It should definitely stay banned...

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I think there's a problem with this bit of logic here:

Battlefield is by far one of the most even match-up stage in the game. Big Battlefield is the exact same on a slightly bigger scale.

Big Battlefield inherently has different features from Battlefield, despite apparently just being a bigger version of Battlefield. I think many of the match-up specific stuff that are bad for characters on Battlefield become, as you said, amplified on this stage. Characters that don't like getting caught on platforms have even more to maneuver around, speedy characters can naturally outpace slower ones and have even more room to work with here...what's stopping say, Sonic from gaining the percent lead on Charizard and then running away the whole match? True, it won't be as drastic as it is on other stages but I do think it's a very real concern with the stage.

I think it's that ability to run away that makes it a problem in the first place. At least in doubles, even when the game goes down to a 2v1 situation, the 2 players can coordinate a way to cut off the lone player. 1v1 is still a small issue but at that point you're down to a last stock situation anyways and the majority of the match has played out.

Personally I think it should be legal for doubles unless it's proven somehow unhealthy for that, but as far as singles goes I just don't think it's a necessary stage, or one that's particularly fair. I'd be open to some testing but that's about it.

 

[Gawain]

Characters with really high aerial mobility could camp this pretty easily in a pinch with little risk. Characters with poor aerial mobility have literally no chance of catching them. The stage is just too big as well. It is extremely anti-hype to have people living to ridiculous percentages where they get sent flying by every hit but just don't die. On the side this also makes characters that have ways to confirm into really strong moves MUCH better on the stage. Stuff like Thunder Wave would become even more ridiculously useful to confirm into strong moves like heavy skull bash.

This all circles back to the main point that we really have no reason to expand the stage list at all. Why? What benefit do we gain by continually adding more and more stages? Especially when we're going to be using a Full List Stage Strike format.

 

[Dapplegonger]

First of all, your argument that it doesn't take much longer is inherently false. You say that it could take up to two minutes longer. That is a whole hell of a lot longer in a two stock six minute match.

Second of all, it isn't as simple as "Big Battlefield is bigger Battlefield, Battlefield is good, therefore Big Battlefield is good". Corneria was legal for a long time in Melee, but I don't think there would have ever been discussion of letting it be legal if it was Sector Z size. And in referring to matchups, Dreamland favors a different set of characters and in different ways than Battlefield did in Melee, and it's basically a "bigger Battlefield". In particular, increased size promotes camping, which is something we certainly do not need more of in this game.

Finally, you are ignoring the fact that not all good stages need to be legal. For example, Final Destination is a legal stage. Therefore, all the Omega stages should be legal as well, right? We should just add them all to the stage striking list right? It's completely silly, yet it proves an important point. Stage lists have to have a certain dynamic. We've got a stage that transforms a lot into a lot of questionable areas, we've got a stage that transforms a few times into some questionable areas, we've got a stage that transforms once into one questionable area. And the transformations are all unique from one another. We've got a stage that shifts between FD and various moving platform areas. We've got a stage with a simple moving platform. We've got a stage with only one layer of platforms that are stable, yet the stage moves a little bit. We've got a stage with a really unique platform layout. We've got a flat stage. We've got a stage with stable platforms. How would adding another stage with stable platforms and a stable base affect the competitive balance of this diverse stage list? It means the stage list favors those characters who thrive on Battlefield platforms.

 

[Raijinken]

Circle camping is the only reason I don't think it's suitable for singles. I'm all for it in doubles.

How would adding another stage with stable platforms and a stable base affect the competitive balance of this diverse stage list? It means the stage list favors those characters who thrive on Battlefield platforms.

Any existing stagelist has that result. An oft-ignored impact of stagelists is that regardless of how large or small they are, they impact the metagame. Even in a 3-stage setup you favor characters who prefer Smashville, since with the exceptions of Sheik and Ness and perhaps some others, it's generally not as polar as Battlefield or Final Destination.

It's not a matter of "avoiding bias towards certain characters," because that will happen regardless and is utterly unavoidable. It's a matter of either distributing that bias as fairly as possible, or acknowledging that no one actually cares if the most popular stage is also the best stage for who is widely perceived to be the best character.

As for match length, two minutes is a third of a 2/6 ruleset, but it's only a quarter of the subjectively superior 3/8 ruleset.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Finally, you are ignoring the fact that not all good stages need to be legal. For example, Final Destination is a legal stage. Therefore, all the Omega stages should be legal as well, right? We should just add them all to the stage striking list right? It's completely silly, yet it proves an important point. Stage lists have to have a certain dynamic. We've got a stage that transforms a lot into a lot of questionable areas, we've got a stage that transforms a few times into some questionable areas, we've got a stage that transforms once into one questionable area. And the transformations are all unique from one another. We've got a stage that shifts between FD and various moving platform areas. We've got a stage with a simple moving platform. We've got a stage with only one layer of platforms that are stable, yet the stage moves a little bit. We've got a stage with a really unique platform layout. We've got a flat stage. We've got a stage with stable platforms. How would adding another stage with stable platforms and a stable base affect the competitive balance of this diverse stage list? It means the stage list favors those characters who thrive on Battlefield platforms.

Uh, why not? To use your Omega example, they generally are legal at basically every tournament except EVO (where they're literally only banned to avoid possible music copyright issues on stream). The one weirdness to them is that they're so similar to FD that they're all lumped together, but it's completely normal to substitute FD with an Omega of your choice when selecting the former.

Lastly, just look at the first sentence of that paragraph by itself. "Finally, you are ignoring the fact that not all good stages need to be legal." Um, WTF? Why on earth would you admit a stage is perfectly fine and still ban it?

 

[Pazx]

Lastly, just look at the first sentence of that paragraph by itself. "Finally, you are ignoring the fact that not all good stages need to be legal." Um, WTF? Why on earth would you admit a stage is perfectly fine and still ban it?

Devil's advocate but there is nothing wrong with banning stages if they are completely redundant and detract from the stagelist in any way (including affecting balance). An oversimplified example would be if we had 4 stages worthy of competitive play in the game: Battlefield, Miiverse, Smashville and Town and City. If you don't remove either BF or Miiverse you create a stagelist that is biased towards characters that get the most out of platforms.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Devil's advocate but there is nothing wrong with banning stages if they are completely redundant and detract from the stagelist in any way (including affecting balance). An oversimplified example would be if we had 4 stages worthy of competitive play in the game: Battlefield, Miiverse, Smashville and Town and City. If you don't remove either BF or Miiverse you create a stagelist that is biased towards characters that get the most out of platforms.

If it were up to me I'd pull an Omega and lump them together (assuming they were in fact basically identical like Omegas are, minus under-stage geometry). One would probably be used as the "default" for game 1 striking purposes but none would be banned outright.

 

[clydeaker]

First of all, your argument that it doesn't take much longer is inherently false. You say that it could take up to two minutes longer. That is a whole hell of a lot longer in a two stock six minute match.

Second of all, it isn't as simple as "Big Battlefield is bigger Battlefield, Battlefield is good, therefore Big Battlefield is good". Corneria was legal for a long time in Melee, but I don't think there would have ever been discussion of letting it be legal if it was Sector Z size. And in referring to matchups, Dreamland favors a different set of characters and in different ways than Battlefield did in Melee, and it's basically a "bigger Battlefield". In particular, increased size promotes camping, which is something we certainly do not need more of in this game.

Finally, you are ignoring the fact that not all good stages need to be legal. For example, Final Destination is a legal stage. Therefore, all the Omega stages should be legal as well, right? We should just add them all to the stage striking list right? It's completely silly, yet it proves an important point. Stage lists have to have a certain dynamic. We've got a stage that transforms a lot into a lot of questionable areas, we've got a stage that transforms a few times into some questionable areas, we've got a stage that transforms once into one questionable area. And the transformations are all unique from one another. We've got a stage that shifts between FD and various moving platform areas. We've got a stage with a simple moving platform. We've got a stage with only one layer of platforms that are stable, yet the stage moves a little bit. We've got a stage with a really unique platform layout. We've got a flat stage. We've got a stage with stable platforms. How would adding another stage with stable platforms and a stable base affect the competitive balance of this diverse stage list? It means the stage list favors those characters who thrive on Battlefield platforms.

Opps sorry, I meant it takes 2 more minuets at most with 3 stock. most matches on battlefield take 4 minuets on average with 3 stock, on big battlefield matches will take on average 5 minuets (from my experience), I said 2 minuets more at most just to be safe. just keep in mind i didn't test it with someone who runs round in circles (circle camping), even though this doesn't seep to be as much of an issue as ledge camping. or under stage ledge camping witch can be preformed on just about every single "legal" stage.. but on big battlefield its harder to do so.

If it were up to me I'd pull an Omega and lump them together (assuming they were in fact basically identical like Omegas are, minus under-stage geometry). One would probably be used as the "default" for game 1 striking purposes but none would be banned outright.

Good point. Maybe Battlefield should be a legal starter stage, but Big Battlefield's a counter pick. Kind of like like how Final Destination and omega stages are treated. I would like to point out, disregarding under stage geometry, that grass omega stages decrease pivot distance and increase friction. (regarding under stage geometry) whether the under stage walls can be cling-able, wall jump-able, indented, strait, the under side is open or not, how much room there is underneath, etc. affect the matches quite a bit.

I like the idea of Final Destination being the default starter stage because it is arguably the the most well rounded and even in all omega stage attributes, the underside walls are wall jump able, you can go under the stage, its indented, the walls are lower than open stages, there isn't any grass (like most omega stages), etc.

Here's something to think about: What if the 8-Player Smash amplified omega stages were allowed in doubles as well? Probably not in singles because of circle camping, but it could work in doubles.

 

[Dapplegonger]

Opps sorry, I meant it takes 2 more minuets at most with 3 stock. most matches on battlefield take 4 minuets on average with 3 stock, on big battlefield matches will take on average 5 minuets (from my experience), I said 2 minuets more at most just to be safe. just keep in mind i didn't test it with someone who runs round in circles (circle camping), even though this doesn't seep to be as much of an issue as ledge camping. or under stage ledge camping witch can be preformed on just about every single "legal" stage.. but on big battlefield its harder to do so.

Good point. Maybe Battlefield should be a legal starter stage, but Big Battlefield's a counter pick. Kind of like like how Final Destination and omega stages are treated. I would like to point out, disregarding under stage geometry, that grass omega stages decrease pivot distance and increase friction. (regarding under stage geometry) whether the under stage walls can be cling-able, wall jump-able, indented, strait, the under side is open or not, how much room there is underneath, etc. affect the matches quite a bit.

I like the idea of Final Destination being the default starter stage because it is arguably the the most well rounded and even in all omega stage attributes, the underside walls are wall jump able, you can go under the stage, its indented, the walls are lower than open stages, there isn't any grass (like most omega stages), etc.

Here's something to think about: What if the 8-Player Smash amplified omega stages were allowed in doubles as well? Probably not in singles because of circle camping, but it could work in doubles.

For the first paragraph: I know from experience that it is really easy to run around and avoid other players. The platform layout as well as the size lends itself to circle camping, and running away is really easy to do. It is not hard to successfully circle camp, and fast characters have a significant advantage on this stage, more so than in other stages.

Second paragraph: Big Battlefield is not similar enough to Battlefield to be lumped into the same stage like that. They are similar, but that's like saying Dreamland 64 and Battlefield are similar enough to be treated as one and the same, or Corneria and Sector Z. The idea that you can do that just shows that you don't understand how important of a factor size is in a stage.

No qualms about your third paragraph, it's a little irrelevant to the discussion.

Fourth paragraph: You clearly don't know what circle camping is. Camping can take several different forms: projectile camping, air camping, platform camping, circle camping. FD is susceptible to projectile camping and to a lesser extent air camping. You can stay at the edge, throw projectiles or whatever, and then roll/run away when somebody approaches. These are really prominent on big stages, where it takes your opponent a long time to get to the other side of the stage. This wouldn't be circle camping because you have to figure out how to get around your opponent, which isn't an issue in circle camping. Circle camping requires a "circle" or a ring which you can maneuver around. Spear Pillar, Temple. Big Battlefield might not have walls preventing other players to chase you, but there is definitely a path you can take around the stage that prevents less mobile characters from approaching you. This stage is susceptible to every type of camping there is. You say that going under the stage is not an issue, but with the new ledge mechanics in Smash 4, it's really not an issue anywhere else either. Except for maybe with sharking on Delfino and Halberd, but even then it's not as difficult to counter as Brawl Meta Knight's similar camping. On Big Battlefield, you can a)easily run away by utilizing the platforms and b)easily stay on the top platforms until somebody approaches you, at which point it is not difficult to get down. It is a problem stage that should not be considered for singles.

 

[LightLV]

Not reading much, my initial thought would be that speedy characters would be nearly uncatchable and thus give a completely unfair advantage for stalling.

 

[clydeaker]

For the first paragraph: I know from experience that it is really easy to run around and avoid other players. The platform layout as well as the size lends itself to circle camping, and running away is really easy to do. It is not hard to successfully circle camp, and fast characters have a significant advantage on this stage, more so than in other stages.

Second paragraph: Big Battlefield is not similar enough to Battlefield to be lumped into the same stage like that. They are similar, but that's like saying Dreamland 64 and Battlefield are similar enough to be treated as one and the same, or Corneria and Sector Z. The idea that you can do that just shows that you don't understand how important of a factor size is in a stage.

No qualms about your third paragraph, it's a little irrelevant to the discussion.

Fourth paragraph: You clearly don't know what circle camping is. Camping can take several different forms: projectile camping, air camping, platform camping, circle camping. FD is susceptible to projectile camping and to a lesser extent air camping. You can stay at the edge, throw projectiles or whatever, and then roll/run away when somebody approaches. These are really prominent on big stages, where it takes your opponent a long time to get to the other side of the stage. This wouldn't be circle camping because you have to figure out how to get around your opponent, which isn't an issue in circle camping. Circle camping requires a "circle" or a ring which you can maneuver around. Spear Pillar, Temple. Big Battlefield might not have walls preventing other players to chase you, but there is definitely a path you can take around the stage that prevents less mobile characters from approaching you. This stage is susceptible to every type of camping there is. You say that going under the stage is not an issue, but with the new ledge mechanics in Smash 4, it's really not an issue anywhere else either. Except for maybe with sharking on Delfino and Halberd, but even then it's not as difficult to counter as Brawl Meta Knight's similar camping. On Big Battlefield, you can a)easily run away by utilizing the platforms and b)easily stay on the top platforms until somebody approaches you, at which point it is not difficult to get down. It is a problem stage that should not be considered for singles.

In my fourth paragraph I said they could be banned because of camping as a joke. On just about every stage in smash you can camp on in one way or another.

 

[warriorman222]

In my fourth paragraph I said they could be banned because of camping as a joke. On just about every stage in smash you can camp on in one way or another.

Yes, and the point is: You can camp better on some stages than others. Try ledge/circle camping in Suzaku or platform/circle camping in Pilotwings, and see how Ganon beats you. Now, try projectile/air camping in FD, and see how Ganon beats you. Which is easier to pull off?

Yeah. Severity is put into consideration. Circle camping is not ban criteria, rather nearly unbeatable or invalidating circle camping is. Maybe this stage should be given a chance, but the biggest strike against it is indisputably the circle camping.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

True circle camping doesn't really work here but you can run for a long time. If either player sets out to camp, every match here will end to time. This stage is not one that helps the game for us using it. It's a great stage for quads, but that's about it.

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

For the Omega stages: It was my understanding that they are banned because otherwise FD couldn't be effectively bannes as the player would always still have a FD stage to pick instead. Am I wrong in that assumption?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

For the Omega stages: It was my understanding that they are banned because otherwise FD couldn't be effectively bannes as the player would always still have a FD stage to pick instead. Am I wrong in that assumption?

EVO bans them because of music licensing issues. Pretty much every other ruleset uses the rule that omegas = Final Destination for striking purposes.