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Let's Pretend For a Minute...

Keebler

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
45
Let's say that SSB4 turns out really, really bad. Do you guys think that a big movement to mod Melee will begin? Something like adding new characters and stages, adding online functionality, basically rebuilding the game using the Melee engine.

I'm a computer science major at Texas-San Antonio, so I'm always interested when modding happens. Is there anyone in the community that would be so inclined to do such a thing?
 

DRGN

Technowizard
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
2,178
Location
Sacramento, CA
I'm interested in coding, modding, and Melee (and have more than one smash related project in front of me), but from what I understand so far, Melee itself is somewhat limited -or at least quite difficult- when it comes to this. I've been in the community for a while, but I've only very recently started getting into hacking. So the limitations/difficulties is something I've mostly been noticing in others' efforts so far. But I know that Brawl for example has much more extensive hacking (and I think it's supposed to be easier, which would explain why); it has character heavily modded, in both texture/appearance and moveset, so they're essentially brand new characters. Not yet sure why this difference between the two games is so. (Maybe engine, maybe something else in the way the games are laid out and coded?)
 

Doq

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
1,037
Location
The Lab, Sweet Home, OR
I'm interested in coding, modding, and Melee (and have more than one smash related project in front of me), but from what I understand so far, Melee itself is somewhat limited -or at least quite difficult- when it comes to this. I've been in the community for a while, but I've only very recently started getting into hacking. So the limitations/difficulties is something I've mostly been noticing in others' efforts so far. But I know that Brawl for example has much more extensive hacking (and I think it's supposed to be easier, which would explain why); it has character heavily modded, in both texture/appearance and moveset, so they're essentially brand new characters. Not yet sure why this difference between the two games is so. (Maybe engine, maybe something else in the way the games are laid out and coded?)
Brawl uses Intel's Havok engine, while Melee uses a custom-made one. While I'm pretty sure that's not the only difference between the two -- no that's a lie, that's definitely not the only difference -- that's a contributor to the ease of Brawl hacking, or the difficulty of Melee hacking.
 

DRGN

Technowizard
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
2,178
Location
Sacramento, CA
Yeah, I know it's the Havok engine. So maybe hacking Brawl is just easier because that engine has been around a while, and so, being used for multiple different games already, there are many who already have experience hacking it and are sharing how-tos. Could it be that the Havok engine was simply designed to be easily modifiable (whereas obviously the Melee engine wasn't)? Or maybe the Havok engine is simply laid out or coded in a more strait forward fashion, so it's easier to figure out and work with.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
I sometimes end up thinking about re-creating Melee – re-writing the game engine and closely examining how things work in Melee to make a perfect clone of the physics. The advantages could be much easier altering of game physics and character / stage / item properties as well as being easier on CPUs and having no lag (Dolphin always delays inputs by 2 frames afaik).

But I doubt anyone is willing to do this, it’s probably years of full-time work. Plus, all that Nintendo would likely do to honor your efforts is writing you a C&D letter, lol.

Has something like this been done before for any game? Air Dash Online is kind of similar, but they never wanted to make another SSBM, just a game inspired by it.
 

Achilles1515

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
3,211
Location
Cincinnati / Columbus OH
"Re-writing" the game would be so much work. SO MUCH work. So much that it makes my head hurt thinking about it. But we're making good progress for some little stuff at the moment.
 

4nace

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
663
Location
Bellevue, WA
I'm working on a new game inspired by both melee and brawl. I can say that rewriting the whole engine is a ludicrous amount of work, but would totally be amazing for expanding the game. So much of a smash game is about feel though and you need visuals and the engine to be working together to land that feel. Other than PM, most mods I have seen just don't feel like smash. So even with a great engine, you would need an awesome team to create new characters and attacks.

I have skirted some of those challenges by choosing a pixel art style that I can do myself. This way I don't have to go back and forth with an artist to let them know why the animations won't work in context. I can implement and then make adjustments by simply opening photoshop. No need to email the artist and explain what is wrong.

However, like my past project (Super Smash Land), I am simplifying many parts of smash to be able to handle it myself. Still I am much more focused on creating a more competitive game, so I am already at a point where I am starting to branch away from smash in certain areas in order to achieve my goals on how I want combos to function and look. But unfortunately because I am one person that means things are going slower. Also I don't plan on ever reaching as many features and depth as melee. I am more interested in injecting my own ideas and trying to innovate in the space rather than just recreating (which like I said would be amazing but a TON of work!)

-Dan
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
I'm working on a new game inspired by both melee and brawl. I can say that rewriting the whole engine is a ludicrous amount of work, but would totally be amazing for expanding the game. So much of a smash game is about feel though and you need visuals and the engine to be working together to land that feel. Other than PM, most mods I have seen just don't feel like smash. So even with a great engine, you would need an awesome team to create new characters and attacks.

I have skirted some of those challenges by choosing a pixel art style that I can do myself. This way I don't have to go back and forth with an artist to let them know why the animations won't work in context. I can implement and then make adjustments by simply opening photoshop. No need to email the artist and explain what is wrong.

However, like my past project (Super Smash Land), I am simplifying many parts of smash to be able to handle it myself. Still I am much more focused on creating a more competitive game, so I am already at a point where I am starting to branch away from smash in certain areas in order to achieve my goals on how I want combos to function and look. But unfortunately because I am one person that means things are going slower. Also I don't plan on every reaching as many features and depth as melee. I am more interested in injecting my own ideas and trying to innovate in the space rather than just recreating (which like I said would be amazing but a TON of work!)

-Dan
(This is a lot of text!)

Mind if I can jump on your project? I'm an independent programmer who has worked with code for the past eight years of my life. My most recent work was coding the Steam game 'Rush Bros.'. Over the past couple of months or so I've been wanting to do something similar to what you are wanting to do. I do not intend to drop any quality or leave something out. The mechanics of the game should be wholeheartedly inspired from Smash - This means everything you would expect in a Smash game would be there. The depth of the game should go as far as Melee did, and possibly even further. (Exactly what PM did!)

As for visuals, Instead of doing a Pixelated art style again, why not try a hand drawn art style? Think of Skullgirls or Street Fighter 2 HD Remix's art style. Instead of doing everything two-dimensional, why not we experiment with 2D characters on a 3D stages? A 2.5D fighter seems like a neat idea to try.

As much as I love competitive Smash, and I want that to be the focus if we work together to put the game into motion, I want to make sure to please both the competitive crowd and the casual crowd. I want to allow both audiences to be able to enjoy the game however they want to play it. This means taking Smash's large amount of options and customizability and furthering it -

For example, one thing I intend to do is have all of the music tracks composed for the game be loaded separately from a folder inside the game's root folder opposed to having the tracks embedded in the game's main executable file. This file system organization method makes it very easy for people to replace the music of the game on platforms such as the PC, Ouya, Android, and IOS devices with a simple file manager program.

This system also allows us to cut the file size down on the initial Android/IOS files that are installed from Google Play or the App Store so we can get past the 50mb upload limit. To make sure users have the music and assets that we can't fit in the initial APK, we can ask users to download the bigger files that take up space from a different (Non-Google Play or App Store) server.)

Following my last statements, publishing on mobile devices might not be the best route, but the Ouya is something serious to look into. The Ouya is a very inexpensive console with lots of possibilities. If we publish on this system it will be easy for competitors to pick up the game for a fraction of the price one would normally spend on a third-gen console such as the Wii U.


For the past few weeks I've come up with a relatively simple (but effective) system on how to render Hitboxes and Hurtboxes - as circular bubbles for better trajectory calculation - on a two-dimensional plane frame by frame at 60 frames per second. I wrote a lot of stuff on it here: http://thealiami.deviantart.com/journal/Active-Hitbox-Hurtbox-Rendering-450384591 (Some stuff is reiterated in this post here.)


GIF Here: http://s18.postimg.org/4ceup6x3d/Komachi_Anigif.gif
(Komachi sprites used in this above proof of concept animation are from the PC game, Touhou Hisouten - Scarlet Weather Rhapsody. Those are not my property and are property of ZUN. They are used only to show a proof of concept.)

(Small Error in the above Image: When Komachi starts swinging her melee weapon, the multiple hit bubbles (The bunch of small ones that make a circle near the start of the animation) trajectory that faces outward should be inverted from what is shown above to better trap the opponent. Take Lucas' Project: M Neutral Aerial for comparison: http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag143/BurnsyGYAB/nair_fixe_zpse5d526d0.gif)



If you would like to discuss anything or possibly work together, please contact me.
You can find me on here all the time of you can contact me with an email at TheAliami@Gmail.com

Ps - I loved Super Smash Land and you should make your signature picture a clickable link to the website.
 
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4nace

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
663
Location
Bellevue, WA
Wow really jealous of your hitbox set up. I set up pretty stupid 2D blobs for both hitboxes and hurtboxes which makes doing things like Jiggly's rest impossible. Your setup is pretty much the 2d equivalent of what Smash does.

About visuals, I would be down for a skullgirls style but that would require forming a team. Right now I am trying to establish a new IP that has gameplay that is similar to Smash. I am already 2 characters in and preparing for a reveal soon. My goal is to make a small game that is achievable and then build a team around the project to make the second incarnation a true contender to smash.

While I would love to get some more experienced programmers on board. I am not in a good position to expand. My composer is already signed up, but currently I am the only one full-time on the game. I am not ready nor able to give up development for creative direction / management.

In the current time, I could add you in an advisor role for this first project but we would have to discuss exactly what that would be. Like I said I am not really in a position to expand so it would be hard to offer more than credit / recognition for your work. (Basically saying it would be unpaid, since I am developing this game while living on savings :D)

-Dan
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Wow really jealous of your hitbox set up. I set up pretty stupid 2D blobs for both hitboxes and hurtboxes which makes doing things like Jiggly's rest impossible. Your setup is pretty much the 2d equivalent of what Smash does.

About visuals, I would be down for a skullgirls style but that would require forming a team. Right now I am trying to establish a new IP that has gameplay that is similar to Smash. I am already 2 characters in and preparing for a reveal soon. My goal is to make a small game that is achievable and then build a team around the project to make the second incarnation a true contender to smash.

While I would love to get some more experienced programmers on board. I am not in a good position to expand. My composer is already signed up, but currently I am the only one full-time on the game. I am not ready nor able to give up development for creative direction / management.

In the current time, I could add you in an advisor role for this first project but we would have to discuss exactly what that would be. Like I said I am not really in a position to expand so it would be hard to offer more than credit / recognition for your work. (Basically saying it would be unpaid, since I am developing this game while living on savings :D)

-Dan
Forming a team might be one of the best options we have. Even if we can't pay anyone at the time, we can sign a NDA promising percentages of revenue and/or kickstart the game in the future. The biggest tip I can give anyone is that when going into independent development, do not think about revenue as a goal or a barrier.

Here's what I'm thinking we do:
  • First we form a small team with no more than eight people.
  • Everyone on the team can come up with a maximum of two characters and two stages.
  • We divide up the work evenly, with us programmers coding all the characters and stages, the artists animating all the characters, and the composers making music for all the stages.
  • Have everyone form a mutual agreement that for work to get done we must all work together within deadlines.
Even if we can't form a team, I would love to help you develop the game even if I don't get pay. Fun fact for you - When I signed on to work on Rush Bros., I was only 15 and I decided it would be best to help program the game for experience instead of getting money for it. Even due to the U.S.' child labor laws not letting me embed my name into the game as much as I could have, I am listed as a major contributor to the project, and I'm more than happy with that.

Edit - Watch this, it's a video done by not only one of my co-workers, but one of my best friends in the world, Ian Boswell. He did all the art for Rush Bros.. This video might inspire you in some way. :D
 
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4nace

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
663
Location
Bellevue, WA
Online teams are tough. It becomes a ton about delegating and without having people full-time or salaried, people get busy and just stop working. If you put responsibility on other people's shoulders then the project can break down very quickly. I tend to only work with people I know IRL that I trust to stay on throughout the project.

And while revenue is not a goal, I am doing this professionally so I am invested in the success of the project and paying for the costs. It would be really hard to distribute responsibility and creative control even though investment likely would not change much.

However, if you feel you have the design chops to help out, I wouldn't mind putting you in a playtester position for now and see what kind of feedback you can come up with. Email roa.game@gmail.com about playtesting and I will send you the information about our current build.

-Dan
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Online teams are tough. It becomes a ton about delegating and without having people full-time or salaried, people get busy and just stop working. If you put responsibility on other people's shoulders then the project can break down very quickly. I tend to only work with people I know IRL that I trust to stay on throughout the project.

And while revenue is not a goal, I am doing this professionally so I am invested in the success of the project and paying for the costs. It would be really hard to distribute responsibility and creative control even though investment likely would not change much.

However, if you feel you have the design chops to help out, I wouldn't mind putting you in a playtester position for now and see what kind of feedback you can come up with. Email roa.game@gmail.com about playtesting and I will send you the information about our current build.

-Dan
I don't mean to constantly contradict you, but the opposite of a lot of your statements would be correct. Online teams are not tough at all. Rush Bros. was handled completely online, so I don't see why it couldn't work here. All you really need is a bi-weekly skype conference and a dropbox and you're good to go.

With the whole mutual work plan I discussed above in my last post, the project would be hard to break down because everyone working on the project has a solid reason to work on it. Everyone working on it would be constantly contributing to it. People contribute to each other's ideas (characters and stages) and that can really motivate people to continue working.

As for distribution of money, that shouldn't be too hard with percentages as mentioned above in my previous post on this page.

Everyone should have a bit of creative control when they are working on the game, not just one person. When only one solitary person has creative control over the entire project, it just makes people feel like their contributions don't matter at all.
 
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greenluigiman2

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
809
I have skirted some of those challenges by choosing a pixel art style that I can do myself. This way I don't have to go back and forth with an artist to let them know why the animations won't work in context. I can implement and then make adjustments by simply opening photoshop. No need to email the artist and explain what is wrong.

-Dan
I understand that you want to handle the art/sprites by yourself, but if after the initial release you happen to want to expand the game, I'd love to help with new characters. I'm a pretty talented spriter/pixel artist and perhaps my biggest strength is that I can effortlessly adapt to different styles provided they're simple enough.
 
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