Meta Legend of the Belmont Clan: Simon/Richter Metagame

JohnKnight416

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Reddemonknight
#1
Smash Ultimate is here and Simon and Richter have join in the fight, living up to their Belmont name as legendary vampire hunters.

Anything related to Simon and Richter's metagame shall be posted on this thread.

Combo videos, Frame data, and Techniques on Simon and Richter Belmont will be posted on this thread.

Here's a neat Richter combo that I posted on Youtube.

Here's a twitter post that I retweeted showcasing Simon/Richter's potential to carry their opponents to the top of the blast zone.
 
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Dendros

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#2
Wow, I love these! All starts from holy water. Even after all these years its still the most broken subweapon. Im going to start exploring everything about the Belmonts on friday! This should be our main competitive analysis thread
 

JohnKnight416

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#4
Does Uppercut kill at any reasonable percents? Because it seems pretty weak.
Uppercut can indeed kill. I don't exactly know what percents it kills at but so far I've seen it kill at around above 130%

Wow, I love these! All starts from holy water. Even after all these years its still the most broken subweapon. Im going to start exploring everything about the Belmonts on friday! This should be our main competitive analysis thread
Speaking, of Holy Water, it seems like it can be a potentially strong edge-guarding tool if spaced correctly. Notice where the Holy Water fire goes at the edge of the FD stage.

Belomont can cancel the landing lag of his dair by catching his Cross.
 

Beth Uriel

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#5
Please do not post multiple times in a row(or twice in a row). Edit your messages instead. :)
 

Mc.Rad

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#6
I see that nobody has talked about this yet but...

I think you can easily KO lightweights at 20% from the top platform in Battlefield if you upthrow, up air, and then up B. I haven't experimented too much with that in mind, but I tested it out on Squirtle. I do wish I got footage of it, but it's an easy combo that even a dumbass like me can do it
 

OldHickory

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#8
That's a pretty useful overview for the specials.
Stairway to Hell is a killer name for a combo.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the flask of holy water will bounce off shields, and can be nabbed out of the air like any other thrown item.
If so, I'd be interested to see the ability to "dribble" it off shielding opponents, like how Robin can with tomes.
 

JohnKnight416

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#9
That's a pretty useful overview for the specials.
Stairway to Hell is a killer name for a combo.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the flask of holy water will bounce off shields, and can be nabbed out of the air like any other thrown item.
If so, I'd be interested to see the ability to "dribble" it off shielding opponents, like how Robin can with tomes.
You're right. If the Holy Water bounces off a shield, it can be grabbed out of the air like any thrown item. However, if the Holy Water bounces off a shield and is not grabbed before it hits the ground, then the Holy Water flames will hurt both you and Belmont himself.
 

Mc.Rad

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#10
Alright so I think one of the main things that Belmont mains need to know is the axe arcs and where they are good at. So I made this dumb image to show where you would need to stand on Battlefield in order to hit the edge in most optimal way. Keep in mind that you can also use normal axe throws at the weak throw spot in order to gimp recoveries most of the time. I also believe that you can use Strong Throws at regular throwing range to hit that same area. But this should be good for people looking to experiment on Richter's edgegaurd potential and maybe look towards his Axe game. Also keep in mind that the positions marked are the most optimal spots. Axe can still hit if you are a bit off, but they won't go off the edge by that much except for a small area between regular throw and weak throw. If you want me to make one for a certain stage or a certain target just ask me.
richterkill.png
 

JohnKnight416

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#11
Alright so I think one of the main things that Belmont mains need to know is the axe arcs and where they are good at. So I made this dumb image to show where you would need to stand on Battlefield in order to hit the edge in most optimal way. Keep in mind that you can also use normal axe throws at the weak throw spot in order to gimp recoveries most of the time. I also believe that you can use Strong Throws at regular throwing range to hit that same area. But this should be good for people looking to experiment on Richter's edgegaurd potential and maybe look towards his Axe game. Also keep in mind that the positions marked are the most optimal spots. Axe can still hit if you are a bit off, but they won't go off the edge by that much except for a small area between regular throw and weak throw. If you want me to make one for a certain stage or a certain target just ask me. View attachment 182456
Do you think you can show the same image set up but on the battlefield stage in the training mode lab? I need to see a good lay on exactly how far you would have to be as well as the arc in which the Axe will go on all three throws in order to determine how much area they will cover on the side platforms of battlefield.
 

Mc.Rad

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#12
Do you think you can show the same image set up but on the battlefield stage in the training mode lab? I need to see a good lay on exactly how far you would have to be as well as the arc in which the Axe will go on all three throws in order to determine how much area they will cover on the side platforms of battlefield.
I think the battlefield in the training mode is smaller... but I can try to do it tomorrow. I'll also try my best to set up the arcs... but they'll be kinda bad looking... lol
 

Triburos

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#13
It's a little inconsistent, but Belmont's dash attack can beat out minor projectiles such as Mario's fireballs and uncharged Shadow Balls from Mewtwo. It seems like its odds are best when you're around the mid-point of the attack.

And while I'm here, have a silly combo. Training mode lists it as true, but I dunno if it can truly be escaped or not via DI

But if I land an early game flask, I know what I'm goin' for
 

Mc.Rad

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#14
Anyways, a quick update on Axe data, standing at 0 (in terms of Richters crotch) Regular Axe lands between 6 and 7 units (in more general terms it's closer to 6 as the back side graces 6 units). Strong Axe seems to hit perfectly at 8 units, Weak Axe seems to hit between 4 & 5 units, I'd say almost perfectly between them.

This is all based on measurements given to us by the training mode stage btw.
Also I’m going to give my ideals about what the Belmont meta may be like. I think that Axe could be a great gimping tool as well as a great edgegaurd tool. It has too much start up to be used on stage reliably, but it’s perfect for offstage. I do think that a reliable way to counter those who can get on stage after the axe is to throw holy water and try to combo with it. This is likely stage specific, as stages like battlefield and the sort would be horrible to land any sort of holy water combo. I think that could mean that stages like those would be picked for their ability to mess up combos like that. I think maybe investing time into combos that could be done on battlefield may prove useful in the meta
 
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LoOshKiN

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#15
Anyone know how to tether recovery with the Belmonts so we don't have to up b? I can't lab it now but when I was before I was just getting air dodges.
 

Mc.Rad

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#16
Anyone know how to tether recovery with the Belmonts so we don't have to up b? I can't lab it now but when I was before I was just getting air dodges.
You just throw out your aerials near the ledge to do it. Just practice and you'll get it right. The easiest for my tastes is forward air recovery, since its the easiest to do.
 

JohnKnight416

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#17
You just throw out your aerials near the ledge to do it. Just practice and you'll get it right. The easiest for my tastes is forward air recovery, since its the easiest to do.
Do you know whether or not you can recover with Belmont's Up Air? I don't have a switch yet so I can't exactly test it for myself
 

JohnKnight416

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#21
A new Belmont Tech has been discovered!

Apparently this Belmont combo can kill at around 30-60%
 
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Isaweth

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#22
I have a theory about Simon/Richter's held jab. Obviously, this move is horrible by itself, its too slow and has short range compared to his other attacks. But can it be used to 2 frame people? if you hang the whip over the ledge, and move it just as the 2 frame window opens, can you capitalize on it? That would be interesting to find out.
 

JohnKnight416

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#23
I have a theory about Simon/Richter's held jab. Obviously, this move is horrible by itself, its too slow and has short range compared to his other attacks. But can it be used to 2 frame people? if you hang the whip over the ledge, and move it just as the 2 frame window opens, can you capitalize on it? That would be interesting to find out.
I'm not sure if that move goes down low enough to be a 2-frame and I can't exactly test that out for myself since I don't own a Switch yet. It might possibly act 2-frame since the chain does touch the ground when you don't spin it, although I don't think it'll be a very reliable 2-frame cuz I don't think the knockback on that move is really that strong.
 
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JohnKnight416

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#24
I've been watching a couple of Belmonts in playing in Tournaments recently and I noticed happen to notice something whenever Belmonts Players recover back towards the stage.
Whenever Belmont players get knocked off stage, they will tend to buffer the Directional Airdodge first and use the momentum of they gain from the Directional Airdodge to help themselves get within range for their tether recovery. They also save their second jump in the process which also helps them in case they get knocked back even further from the stage or for when they want to recover low.
This approach towards recovering back to the stage as Belmont significantly improves their survivability offstage as I've seen sometime Belmont live at above 130% when he makes it back onstage. I also want to point out that Belmont players mostly use the Tether recovery more often than using the Belmont's UpB for recovering as it seem much more efficient and harder to punish.
 
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Muramishi

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#25
Yo! There's already a thread with this floating around, but Mc.Rad requested that I also post this in the Meta thread.
So, here's a Belmont combo video. Enjoy:
 

JohnKnight416

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#26
Yo! There's already a thread with this floating around, but Mc.Rad requested that I also post this in the Meta thread.
So, here's a Belmont combo video. Enjoy:
Is it possible to escape the Holy Water flame with SDI? Cuz a lot of these combos start off with Belmont's holy water. If the opponent can SDI out of the holy water, then that means that all of the combos that start off with holy water aren't true combos.
 
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Muramishi

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#27
Is it possible to escape the Holy Water flame with SDI? Cuz a lot of these combos start off with Belmont's holy water. If the opponent can SDI out of the holy water, then that means that all of the combos that start off with holy water aren't true combos.
Did some further testing on it and the earliest I was able to escape Holy Flame was hit 6, but that was only once out of around 50 tries. Hit 7 inconsistently, with the average being around 8 hits (this was from 0% mind you. Of course higher percents made it easier to at least reset the hit counter). Seems where the jar hits on the body of the opponent before it explodes makes a difference towards preferred SDI direction. Weight class, etc will definitely factor in. Training dummy for this exercise was Simon.
While I maximized the hits initially in the combo video, a majority of them could be sped up to improve validity. However I would suggest further testing on SDI to find a median for reliable recovery.
 

RancidLeaf

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#29
The Belmont's Up B out of shield seems to be a great tool to get opponents away from you. It isn't really a kill option until higher percents, but it gives you stage control and a chance to set up your projectiles.

I was able to use it successfully against marth/lucina's side-b. I literally mashed Up-B while their attack was on my shield, during some slashes the attack just wouldn't come out due to shield stun, but when it did it didn't trade even once (not sure if it has invincibility).

This is info from a few hours of playing with a friend. So obviously more testing is required.
 

JohnKnight416

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#30
He's a combo that you should know when playing as Simon or Richter.

Also, here's Zero's demonstration on this Belmont combo

Keep in mind that the combo doesn't work if the opponent DIs away from Belmont. Zero mentions this in the comments in his video demonstration of this combo
 
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De Wolfe

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#31
Damn it sucks you cant B reverse projectile spawning Down Specials in the air in this game. You could do it in Smash 4 iirc. Richter would be far more potent and easier to play if you could B reverse his Holy Water. Without B reverse you have to commit to your jump direction/angle and place your Holy Waters in a much more predictable way. If you could B reverse it you could make your gameplay far more unpredictable. Would that make Holy Water too strong though? I would say no, but then I'm not experienced enough with him to gauge his true strength. I feel like he would still be fair.
 

TriforceBun

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#32
I'm finally learning to hurl axes whenever the opponent sticks to the air, but now I have a new problem with Simon, and it's a big one.

For the life of me, I cannot reverse-up-B consistently when recovering. I'd estimate a whopping 1/4th to 1/3rd of my KOs are due to having a wrong-facing Knife Uppercut whiff the ledge. It's crazy. Is it really finicky and difficult to reverse the Belmonts' up-B, or am I just really bad at it? Any tips? Maybe I'll just go for the tether from now on...
 

Sauce09

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#33
The Belmont's Up B out of shield seems to be a great tool to get opponents away from you. It isn't really a kill option until higher percents, but it gives you stage control and a chance to set up your projectiles.

I was able to use it successfully against marth/lucina's side-b. I literally mashed Up-B while their attack was on my shield, during some slashes the attack just wouldn't come out due to shield stun, but when it did it didn't trade even once (not sure if it has invincibility).

This is info from a few hours of playing with a friend. So obviously more testing is required.
Yes, it has invincibility frames during frame 5-6 and the attack starts at 6.

I agree, it's one of Belmont's best moves. Can't stress enough how important it is to get good at using this as an OoS option. It massively alleviates the problem of people getting too close, to the point where you can bait them to attack your shield for a free punish. If a Belmont player isn't trying to use this, you're doing it wrong.

It has a giant hitbox, but some characters can DI out of most hits if they were far enough (roughly max range) from your first attack on ground. This is mostly remedied by you DI'ing towards them, as well. Not too important ATM, but it might be in the future.
 

JohnKnight416

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#34
Here are some Richter Belmont matches that I'm gonna use for some match analysis.
On thing that I wanna point out that I've noticed during this match is that this Richter player likes to utilizes the Belmont's Up Throw. Belmont's Up Throw doesn't lead into any true combos, and yet this Richter Player uses Belmont's Up Throw to his advantage as more a setup throw. For Instance, after he Up Throws his opponent, he immediately threatens them with Belmont's Uair which forces the opponent to directional air dodge to avoid getting juggled by Belmont's Uair. And when the opponent chooses to direction air dodge the Uair, they are left vulnerable as they are unable to act in time due to the amount of lag you receive after a direction air dodge. And since Belmont's Uair has a very long vertical range, they are in an advantage state as they have more than enough time to act before their opponent reaches the ground after directional dodging the Uair. This allows Belmont to punish them with another aerial attack or another grab and the opponent can't do nothing about it as they are now in a disadvantage state after using the direction airdodge.

One thing that I noticed about this Richter Player in this match and also in the previous match that I posted is that he uses Holy Water against the ledge of the stage as a unique ledge getup option which seems to work as the fire from the Holy Water is able to clip through the ledge.


 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#35
Dump of personal notes that I thought were worth noting. Some (or all?) of it may be known, and I wouldn't know because honestly I don't really keep on top of what everyone else it doing.

If you manage to catch HW after it has hit someone (most easily done by first using down-special, having it bounce off the opponent's shield, catching it before it lands, then z-dropping it on the opponent as you land and re-catching the HW again; still with me?) the very next time you throw HW and it hits someone it will have already exhausted its hitbox and will instead immediately burst into flame upon touching the opponent. This obviously makes it extremely useful against aerial opponents, e.g. giving you a free Dair spike off-stage, so maybe consider holding onto it using ZAC and IZAC techniques combined with specials to potentially get the opponent off-stage before you throw it away in these instances.

If you're concerned about HW being shielded and then creating a hitbox on the ground that hurts both you and the opponent, buffer it out of a FH (or higher up) and it will run out of active frames and disappear before it touches the ground, then you can proceed to ignore it (or catch it if you wish).

I found two buffered setups that allow you to consistently make the HW land on the edge of the stage, burst into flame and then slowly fall past the ledge.
1. Ledge jump buffered horizontal directional airdodge towards centre-stage, turn around, then SH buffer down-special.
2. Get to the edge of the stage facing out (e.g. Dash/Run into the edge), stop, Jump directly up and buffer a directional airdodge back towards centre-stage, then SH buffer down-special.
Being able to consistently set this up is sweet because it can 2-frame recoveries and then if the opponent is caught in the flames off-stage you can get a Dair spike kill out of it.

Diagonal-down Fair/Bair cannot be FF'd until frame 3, and unlike with other aerials the FF cannot be buffered or held before/as you A-stick an aerial to have it automatically FF. So no, it's not you screwing up.

This is just a personal preference thing, but after giving A-stick Diagonal Fair/Bair a good go, I cannot overlook the added consistency that using the joystick for diagonal aerials provides, especially for using diagonally-down Fair/Bair off-stage.

Diagonal Fair/Bair have different tether areas/ranges to normal Fair/Bair tethers. And by different I mean holy ****, you would be surprised by how far up you can be and still have Diagonal down tether the ledge, and vice versa. Speaking of which,

Have you ever tried to tether the ledge, and you swear you were in range because past experience tells you it should have tethered. but it just didn't? And no it wasn't because you had been hit recently, or because you had recently been on the ledge, and it had nothing to do with grabbing the ledge too many times. You were in range, you tethered, and got nothing.
What if I told you, that for some reason (I can offer explanations, but it doesn't matter), the area within which you can be when the tether wants to come out to grab the ledge, is different depending on whether you are falling or not. I'm talking about a difference that I have tested and demonstrated to be at least 24 tiny training room squares of vertical height (same horizontal positon) on the frame the tether tethered, or in other words that's 2 and a half of the slightly bigger squares; certainly big enough for you to feel like you've definitely tethered in that area before and had it work, only this time it didn't, and hey maybe you were FFing, and had no jump, so maybe you're dead now.
Point is, when tethering to the ledge out of a FH or DJ, you can tether while rising or at around the peak and you'll be able to tether the ledge really far beneath you with a diagonally down Fair/Bair; but when you're falling down (say if you got hit off-stage and you decide to FF then tether) just be extra careful about delaying your tether slightly so you are more in line with the ledge as the tether comes out (anything around SH height as the tether comes out is likely to fail so not worth the risk).
Note that this sort of difference (at least a notable one) doesn't seem to apply to tethering diagonally up when falling compared to out of a DJ (which there are also potential explanations for, but that's all just theory at this point and doesn't really matter).

You can hit and hold up on the joystick the frame after starting a Fair/Bair (or on frame 3 of Uair) and if the aerial tethers the ledge you will buffer a reel-in on the first possible frame, making it consistently very quick. Note that you must let go of the A-stick to allow Up on the joystick to reel you in, so flick the A-stick and then hit and hold up. (Holding the A-stick doesn't seem to affect hitting down to cancel the tether though, for 'reasons').

U-throw is now your combo throw, and you can forget D-throw unless the opponent's recovery is particularly gimpable or the opponent's character has specific defensive options which don't allow any room for missing combos. Why? Because U-throw will always give you more damage regardless of percent if you do the right thing, which isn't difficult to do at all. U-throw itself deals more damage than D-throw and then at its most basic it will lead into the same damage follow-up.
'U-throw to buffered SH Uair' (at very low percents only depending on the MU) and 'U-throw to buffered FH then timed Uair' are your new best friends. Go learn the timing of the buffered FH to immediate Uair; you can hold the jump during the U-throw and then it's the same timing every time for the Uair, and there's always a nice visual and auditory cue when U-throw's whip connects. You'll need to learn it because beyond very low percents, this is what you'll be using primarily right up until kill percents against some characters (for other characters you'll want to start doing DJ Uair or hoping you get a grab on a platform).
Unless they're at around mid percents, the FH Uair isn't going to combo, but it will cover every option that doesn't use an airdodge.
You have plenty of time to react to their DI and FH left or right to follow them, then Uair reaches so high that their DJ won't be enough to escape, and their aerials will either be out-spaced and/or out-paced.
When they do airdodge you can punish with e.g. landing Nair to re-grab (for normal airdoge), d-tilt or DA (for directional airdodges if pressed for time), or DJ aerial (if they go to a platform).

If Cross is used at the start of any jump, it will increase your vertical jump height, and if used out of a FH or DJ you can act soon enough that it increases your overall vertical potential. You must actually throw the Cross; an empty throw will not help. As for how this is supposed to help, well at first I thought it could aid vertical recovery in some cases, but that's wishful thinking as the two can't be buffered together, so I'm not sure.

One final note, let it be known that DJ Up-B gets you slightly more vertical recovery than DJ Uair-tether. (I'm only combining these options with DJ because that gives Uair tether the best possible scenario to prove itself by letting it wind-up and then be used at the peak of the DJ). In most cases you'd be using either Up-special or diagonally-up Fair/Bair (which both reach impressively high up). Considering the Belmont's poorer air-speed this will typically make Uair-tethers redundant.
 

havefun

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#36
Here are some Richter Belmont matches that I'm gonna use for some match analysis.
On thing that I wanna point out that I've noticed during this match is that this Richter player likes to utilizes the Belmont's Up Throw. Belmont's Up Throw doesn't lead into any true combos, and yet this Richter Player uses Belmont's Up Throw to his advantage as more a setup throw. For Instance, after he Up Throws his opponent, he immediately threatens them with Belmont's Uair which forces the opponent to directional air dodge to avoid getting juggled by Belmont's Uair. And when the opponent chooses to direction air dodge the Uair, they are left vulnerable as they are unable to act in time due to the amount of lag you receive after a direction air dodge. And since Belmont's Uair has a very long vertical range, they are in an advantage state as they have more than enough time to act before their opponent reaches the ground after directional dodging the Uair. This allows Belmont to punish them with another aerial attack or another grab and the opponent can't do nothing about it as they are now in a disadvantage state after using the direction airdodge.

One thing that I noticed about this Richter Player in this match and also in the previous match that I posted is that he uses Holy Water against the ledge of the stage as a unique ledge getup option which seems to work as the fire from the Holy Water is able to clip through the ledge.


Nitro is the best Simon i’ve Seen play. Sorry smoosh we have a new #1 Simon now
 

AfroGamerNinja

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#37
Yo! There's already a thread with this floating around, but Mc.Rad requested that I also post this in the Meta thread.
So, here's a Belmont combo video. Enjoy:
Either I'm not looking at the right spots or Simon/Richter is not combo-heavy. Regardless, thanks. :)
 
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