Legal Custom Stages?

[krakkenchaos]

It is highly unlikely that custom stages will ever become a common thing in competitive play, but I think it is possible, especially considering the recent update adding sharing. Considering how creative people have already gotten with the stage builder, I can see some really interesting practical stages emerging. Either sharing the stage itself or images including the grid for people to recreate exactly could allow these stages to become standard. I find the legal stage pool for Smash 4 to be disappointingly small (I still don't understand why Pilotwings, Skyloft, and Wuhu Island aren't legal when Castle Siege is) and I would welcome any new stages.

 

[Alhobbies440]

It is highly unlikely that custom stages will ever become a common thing in competitive play, but I think it is possible, especially considering the recent update adding sharing. Considering how creative people have already gotten with the stage builder, I can see some really interesting practical stages emerging. Either sharing the stage itself or images including the grid for people to recreate exactly could allow these stages to become standard. I find the legal stage pool for Smash 4 to be disappointingly small (I still don't understand why Pilotwings, Skyloft, and Wuhu Island aren't legal when Castle Siege is) and I would welcome any new stages.

If it really is easy share or replicate custom stages then I don't see why we shouldn't explore the option. I honestly think that custom stages likely won't become a mainstream thing for a few reasons though:

1. A lot of people are secretly waiting for Nintendo to distribute enough DLC competitive stages before they go to such drastic measures to create their own stages for the sake of variety.
2. People are kinda stuck in their ways when it comes to smash and they would rather play the game without all the hassle of deciding on a custom stage. This would take some major convincing to get the whole competitive community to agree on what stages are legal and what aren't.
3. They aren't as pretty as the default stages.
4. They are satisfied with what they already have.

I know some of these are silly but these are realistic reasons why some people would be adverse to the idea of allowing custom stages. Personally I don't really have much of an opinion on the matter other than it sounds interesting and worth trying out if logistics aren't a problem. The game is new so it should be explored.

Here's a link to some cool looking tournament minded custom stages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxHHg5rXNIc

 

[webbedspace]

Get some people to make 90% accurate reproductions of various Project M flat+plat stages. That almost solves point 2.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not inherently opposed to the idea. But I can see a few things getting in the way.

First, and most obviously, it basically can't happen until stage sharing is a thing. Otherwise there's the risk of imperfect recreation in the stage editor.

Second, there would need to be something resembling consensus on which stages are worth playing on in the first place. Even now there's still a lot of debate on which of the regular stages we should be using (although that seems to be dying down a bit), imagine what it'll be like with custom stages.

Third, there's the risk of running into what I'll unimaginatively call "PM Syndrome" where everyone tries to adhere to a basic flat + plat model and glut the "market" as it were with a bunch of stages that may look and play marginally differently but all boil down to "here's a solid main platform and a few regular platforms overhead, have fun." If custom stages are to be a thing I'd want them to have fresh, interesting ideas, not just a stationary version of PS2's base form.

Last, it almost seems like a solution in search of a problem. AFAIK PM has some stages banned literally because there are too many quality stages. Even though that reasoning seems quite silly to me (assuming it's true), it's apparently a thing that happens anyway and I wouldn't want custom stages to overshadow the "real" ones, for lack of a better term.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The only real way to get people to agree to this is to recreate old competitive stages from previous games.

And even then, it's still probably unlikely/people will complain. But if there was any feasible way to go about this, it would be looking into recreating competitive stages from previous Smash games.

 

[webbedspace]

Last, it almost seems like a solution in search of a problem. AFAIK PM has some stages banned literally because there are too many quality stages. Even though that reasoning seems quite silly to me (assuming it's true), it's apparently a thing that happens anyway and I wouldn't want custom stages to overshadow the "real" ones, for lack of a better term.

Mmm, I think the odds of people deciding to replace well-liked stages like Duck Hunt or Town & City with a bunch of static customs is a bit unlikely. And the likes of Delfino and Castle Siege, which offer temporary walk-offs, projectile interference, etc. can't be matched in the builder.

The only real way to get people to agree to this is to recreate old competitive stages from previous games.

Why just previous games? There are several stages that people have said "should be legal, except...". Why not a recreated Kongo 64 minus the problematic barrel (and with simpler moving platforms, of course)? Why not a remake of Meringue Clouds from Mushroom Kingdom U (minus the moving parts, of course) or a less obstructive Tomodachi Life? Even a vacant Magicant would be nice (if the platform edges were made solid).

 

[hey_there]

Why just previous games? There are several stages that people have said "should be legal, except...". Why not a recreated Kongo 64 minus the problematic barrel (and with simpler moving platforms, of course)? Why not a remake of Meringue Clouds from Mushroom Kingdom U (minus the moving parts, of course) or a less obstructive Tomodachi Life? Even a vacant Magicant would be nice (if the platform edges were made solid).

Reset Bomb Forest, Jungle Hijinx, and Find Mii get my votes. Maybe Garden of Hope?

 

[<Green>]

I was thinking that if custom stage sharing is added, the community could make custom stages that could be used in tournaments. People have already started re-creating old stages, so i see no reason this wouldn't work.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[ATH_]

If we make easy to recreate versions of past stages or stages that exist then I see no issues with having 2-3 custom stages to replace some other stages on the stage list.
For example, recreating Duck Hunt but with a longer plat for the bush and making the bush on both sides? That would be incredibly easy to make and it would make a much better version of Duck Hunt. As it gets rid of the damn bushes you can hide behind, the tree of uncertainty, and the Dog sprouting up. Also the Ducks potentially getting in the way of hits.

 

[webbedspace]

I think a "replacement Duck Hunt", if this was really a good idea that would get traction (which I doubt) should more strongly emphasise Duck Hunt's desirable traits.

Why do people switch to Duck Hunt? A) super wide stage, rewarding stage control and attacking from the correct direction, B) blast lines are close to the ledges, making horizontal recovery easier, C) tree's high platform makes vertical and high horizontal recovery easier - but isn't wide enough to be a pivotal part of the neutral game.

All three of these should not just be preserved, but emphasised strongly - make the "tree" more uniform in design and easier to ascend (a perfectly aligned stack of very narrow platforms, maybe), make the blast lines even closer (potentially Smashville-moving-platform close) by making the stage wider (but within limits, so that it isn't quite impossible to KO from one ledge to the opposite blast line). This way, the benefits and tradeoffs that this stage offers are much clearer and more distinct compared to Smashville and FD.

(FWIW I'm aware that the Stage Builder has some harsh limits about where the blast lines can be, such that making "close" blast lines may actually be impossible. Still, the methodology of this post should be applied to other proposed "fixes", like (shudder) a Lylat Cruise fix.)

 

[Rhubarbo]

How abuseable are walls in Smash 4? I wounder how a small, L shaped stage (think Project M training stage) would play out.

 

[popsofctown]

How abuseable are walls in Smash 4? I wounder how a small, L shaped stage (think Project M training stage) would play out.

Smash 4 has a special mechanic where if an attacker deals damage and doesn't actually push the defender backwards at all, instead the attacker is pushed backwards. This makes wall infinites impossible/undiscovered.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Smash 4 has a special mechanic where if an attacker deals damage and doesn't actually push the defender backwards at all, instead the attacker is pushed backwards. This makes wall infinites impossible/undiscovered.

Interesting. There's been a lot of talk about changing the timer or adding custom moves to jump start Smash 4's meta. I think custom stages deserve a spot in the discussion since they can directly affect kill times - Smash 4's biggest problem.

 

[webbedspace]

Interesting. There's been a lot of talk about changing the timer or adding custom moves to jump start Smash 4's meta. I think custom stages deserve a spot in the discussion since they can directly affect kill times - Smash 4's biggest problem.

One problem with that is that, as mentioned, the stage builder's smallest blast lines option is still significantly larger than the standard stages like Smashville and Battlefield, and is more comparable to Kongo 64. This can be compensated vertically by moving the entire stage upward, but horizontally it'll still be advantageous to wide recovery characters.

I also hesitate to say that kill times are really Smash 4's "biggest" problem, as it assumes it's even possible to decide its biggest problem while the meta is still in flux.

Also, an addendum: I've been informed that Duck Hunt actually does not have closer horizontal blast lines, and I am a nitwit in that respect.

 

[Chapter Serf]

I think it would be fun to have custom stages in competitive play, but how would you go about balancing them/judging them for competitive play? What would determine if Stage A by So-and-So is fair compared to Stage B by What's-his-face?

Are people going to be willing to play through the potentially thousands of stages that are going to be out there once stage sharing comes out to determine if fair/not fair?

OK, I give you that there are going to be some ******** stages (like one that's one long (or not so long) platform that's 10% solid ground and the rest lava), or the stage that's as tiny of a platform as can legally be by the system.

But what about the ones that people really put some time and effort into to make cool/fun? There's going to be lots of those as well.

 

[Rhubarbo]

One problem with that is that, as mentioned, the stage builder's smallest blast lines option is still significantly larger than the standard stages like Smashville and Battlefield, and is more comparable to Kongo 64. This can be compensated vertically by moving the entire stage upward, but horizontally it'll still be advantageous to wide recovery characters.

Aw crap, I figured as much. Maybe, if walls aren't completely jank in Smash 4, an L shaped stage could be shifted towards one or the other horizontal blast lines. Fighting against a wall, if it doesn't add infinites, adds a whole layer of strategy.

 

[webbedspace]

Are people going to be willing to play through the potentially thousands of stages that are going to be out there once stage sharing comes out to determine if fair/not fair?

Obvious answer is to establish some kind of Back Room here or in some other forum, and crown them the worldwide authority on stages. Of course, their authority would only be respected by TOs if they were very conservative with stage designs, sticking to just flat+plat or conversions of other stages for at least the first year or so.

Alternative, more interesting answer is to set up a website/subforum specifically for trialling/rating/advocating custom stages, with individual stages getting voted up/down and such.

 

[Donkeybutter]

Smash 4 has a special mechanic where if an attacker deals damage and doesn't actually push the defender backwards at all, instead the attacker is pushed backwards. This makes wall infinites impossible/undiscovered.

I actually like that mechanic...I always thought wall infinites were pretty cheap and annoying.

I think it would be hard for players to accept just any custom stage in the widespread competitive community. Even if the stage looks great, people would view it as a random choice, and be pissed that they chose Stage A over Stage B or whatever. It would just seem like a very arbitrary decision that maybe some TO's would love and others wouldn't.

It would be much easier to get ppl on board if someone can make an close replicas of already existing stages like others have suggested in this thread. It would allow for use to bring back almost any stage in the past 4 games, and even make it smaller or remove hazards that made it unplayable in the past on a competitive level.

It would be awesome if the bigger organizations like VGBC, Clash Tournaments, Tourney Locator, Hitbox Arena, etc. could come together and hold a "Recreate a Stage!" contest with prizes for the winner or runners up. I think it would only work if VGBC and CT especially were onboard though, as they are the most influential and relevant organizers for events. If someone else held a custom contest and neither of those organizations recognized the new stage, it would likely never gain any traction.

If anyone from CT or VGBC is reading....hey you should consider how cool something like this might be.