Ledge Guarding and Aerial Finishers.

[Starphoenix]

Cannoli, your tone can easily be misinterpreted based on some past responses, and has been. All I'm suggesting is taking a look at the way you're framing your argument and see if there is room for improvement.

 

[Senario]

And!!!! Close thread! Probably, it is entertaining watching people bicker over something though generally now all that needs to be said has been said.

People weigh in, somebody attacks the competitive scene, people respond, devolves into a bunch of players slinging insults at each other. Has happened way too many times to count.

 

[Turokman5896]

Frankly, I'm a little confused at the disappointment in edge hogging going away. Isn't the main draw of melee high speed, offensive gameplay? If so, shouldn't a focus in aggressive off stage play be awesome? Also, this is not a place for casuals vs competitive! Do not bring that up here!

 

[Metallaeus]

Frankly, I'm a little confused at the disappointment in edge hogging going away. Isn't the main draw of melee high speed, offensive gameplay? If so, shouldn't a focus in aggressive off stage play be awesome? Also, this is not a place for casuals vs competitive! Do not bring that up here!

Well, we won't really know how it'll turn out yet, but offstage action does sound very exciting. Not sure if people will resort to it all the time though.

 

[Bladeviper]

Frankly, I'm a little confused at the disappointment in edge hogging going away. Isn't the main draw of melee high speed, offensive gameplay? If so, shouldn't a focus in aggressive off stage play be awesome? Also, this is not a place for casuals vs competitive! Do not bring that up here!

i need to find the vod but im sure during the treehouse they showed that by trumping a player it allows you to act instantly after grabbing the ledge, imo this opens it up even more since you dont have to wait and give them a chance to recover. This just changes how edge guarding works in that you just wait for them to take a the ledge then steal it

 

[Turokman5896]

Well, we won't really know how it'll turn out yet, but offstage action does sound very exciting. Not sure if people will resort to it all the time though.

True, but I hope players get more aggressive with their edge guarding this time around. But metas are unpredictable, no one really knows what will happen.

 

[25%Cotton]

i don't get why more people aren't pumped for this change.

edgehogging has always been around, sure, and it's definitely a legitimate tactic to getting ahead of your opponent.. but at the same time it kinda feels a bit... every character has their own color and play style but with edgehogging they don't really -- it's all the same, you just learn the timing for other characters' recoveries. it's a good strategy to exploit, but ignoring its usefulness it's not particularly interesting (GRAB THE LEDGE AT THE RADDEST MOMENT AND WATCH YOUR OPPONENT ANTICLIMACTICALLY FALL LIKE A DEAD BIRD -- wait, i've made it sound more interesting than it is)

with this new mechanic, i can see the risky aerial fights being more based around each character's individual colors.

 

[Turokman5896]

i don't get why more people aren't pumped for this change.

edgehogging has always been around, sure, and it's definitely a legitimate tactic to getting ahead of your opponent.. but at the same time it kinda feels a bit... every character has their own color and play style but with edgehogging they don't really -- it's all the same, you just learn the timing for other characters' recoveries. it's a good strategy to exploit, but ignoring its usefulness it's not particularly interesting (GRAB THE LEDGE AT THE RADDEST MOMENT AND WATCH YOUR OPPONENT ANTICLIMACTICALLY FALL LIKE A DEAD BIRD -- wait, i've made it sound more interesting than it is)

with this new mechanic, i can see the risky aerial fights being more based around each character's individual colors.

I hope this is the case, and I hope that characters that have good aerial interception options actually use them. Nothing wrong with edge hogging, but the most hype parts of any match for me are usually crazy off stage battles. Hopefully players will develop more more unique edge guarding tactics for individual characters.

 

[Metallaeus]

(GRAB THE LEDGE AT THE RADDEST MOMENT AND WATCH YOUR OPPONENT ANTICLIMACTICALLY FALL LIKE A DEAD BIRD -- wait, i've made it sound more interesting than it is)

Well, I guess that was always kind of super lame. At least now they can grab the ledge, although they'll probably get popped off and back air'd but that's at least more exciting.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I don't think it was that big an issue for game health or anything, but I'm really glad edgehogging is gone. When I played with my friends we made an agreement to actively avoid edgehogging (even accidentally) because we felt kinda pathetic when we did; it wasn't fulfilling or skillful. Even with this being a general buff to recovery, if this also means that riskier plays need to be made off-stage in order to quickly secure kills, I'm all for it. I don't get a thrill out of seeing someone take stocks by grabbing the edge.

 

[Colino]

I personally would not have minded edge hogging as much if it weren't possible to reset invincibility. This really takes a lot out of the skill and predictive nature of the tactic and just makes it that much cheesier.

Plus let's just be honest, there's almost nothing as hype as a nice off-ledge kill and recovery.

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

Just a friendly reminder that edgeguarding and edgehogging are two different (but related) things. Also, I imagine that at least the early metagame will be:
player A knock player B off the stage
player A waits for player B to snap to the ledge (assuming here that player B's character has a recovery that snaps the ledge)
During the small period of time where player B can't do anything (since the small delay after grabbing the ledge is coming back), player A then does the classic Brawl edgehog motion (since characters can still snap to the ledge while facing away from the ledge)
Player B gets trumped, and sent mostly sideways off the ledge (I remember seeing a gif where this trajectory was demonstrated)
Player A then bairs player B, or some other aerial depending on how long player A is constraint to wait on the ledge (nobody seems sure how this works after trumping)

Curious to see where it evolves from there

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Just a friendly reminder that edgeguarding and edgehogging are two different (but related) things.

Very true - I knew this, but completely mixed them up in my post. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

Very true - I knew this, but completely mixed them up in my post. Thanks for the reminder.

You actually used it correctly in your post about your friends agreeing to not edgehog, if that's the post you mean.
Edgehog = grabbing the ledge so the other player can't (obviously a simplified explanation)
Edgeguard = using attacks/mindgames/projectiles/whatever to keep the other player from grabbing the ledge in the first place

Edgehogging is a form of edgeguarding, though. Kind of like how a square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.

 

[Book Jacket]

Edgehog = grabbing the ledge so the other player can't (obviously a simplified explanation)
Edgeguard = using attacks/mindgames/projectiles/whatever to keep the other player from grabbing the ledge in the first place

Edgehogging is a form of edgeguarding, though. Kind of like how a square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.

I really like that way of describing it

Side note, with the new off stage tumble animation, edgeguards are going to look awesome

You hit the person off the stage, and you bravely run out into the abyss to finish the kill, flipping in the air on your way to a perfectly timed knee of justice. Or spike. Maybe some B moves.

And hey, maybe using counter moves on recoveries is gonna become meta. I mean, Clash Tournaments had a video proving that Marth's counter has kill power. That'll be interesting.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

You actually used it correctly in your post about your friends agreeing to not edgehog, if that's the post you mean.
Edgehog = grabbing the ledge so the other player can't (obviously a simplified explanation)
Edgeguard = using attacks/mindgames/projectiles/whatever to keep the other player from grabbing the ledge in the first place

Edgehogging is a form of edgeguarding, though. Kind of like how a square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.

Sorry for the confusion here - it originally said edgeguarding. I edited it after seeing your post.

 

[Turokman5896]

I really like that way of describing it

Side note, with the new off stage tumble animation, edgeguards are going to look awesome

You hit the person off the stage, and you bravely run out into the abyss to finish the kill, flipping in the air on your way to a perfectly timed knee of justice. Or spike. Maybe some B moves.

And hey, maybe using counter moves on recoveries is gonna become meta. I mean, Clash Tournaments had a video proving that Marth's counter has kill power. That'll be interesting.

I would be so hyped if a falcon ran off stage did the midair roll and kneed someone into oblivion! I too am interested in counters as well; they might be a significant or nonexistent part of smash 4.

 

[Metallaeus]

The real kicker here is now we don't have to watch people camp it out at the ledge anymore hopefully. (*cough Chu Dat)

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

If MK's tornado is still in (if MK is still in), I'm afraid that the post-ledge-trump state will be another situation in which it covers all options except just fastfalling to the bottom blast zone.

Edit: just found out that MK is in, shows how up-to-date I am
Edit: no he's not, I don't know what to believe anymore. All I know is that finding a full roster so far is more difficult than it should be.

 

[Turokman5896]

If MK's tornado is still in (if MK is still in), I'm afraid that the post-ledge-trump state will be another situation in which it covers all options except just fastfalling to the bottom blast zone.

Edit: just found out that MK is in, shows how up-to-date I am
Edit: no he's not, I don't know what to believe anymore. All I know is that finding a full roster so far is more difficult than it should be.

Ignore this----
Yeah hopefully no character ends up with options that are too good

 

[DaDavid]

This is definitely one of the things that has me most excited about the game. I've always hated edge-hogging. I understand why it's done, it works and even if the cooler option would be funner to watch, it doesn't promise victory. Well to me that's just the exact reason I don't like seeing endless Fox/MK ditto's at certain tourney's.

I'm gonna love seeing more matches get decided do to different types of edge-guarding.

 

[Second Power]

In Brawl you can only meteor cancel after traveling half of the distance the meteor will send you as opposed to in Melee where you can meteor cancel at any time. Meteors are powerful and useful in Brawl.

Sorry about spreading misinformation, honest mistake

 

[Zzuxon]

If MK's tornado is still in (if MK is still in), I'm afraid that the post-ledge-trump state will be another situation in which it covers all options except just fastfalling to the bottom blast zone.

Edit: just found out that MK is in, shows how up-to-date I am
Edit: no he's not, I don't know what to believe anymore. All I know is that finding a full roster so far is more difficult than it should be.

smashbros-miiverse.com
There ya go, best site for basic info. It has all known characters, stages, etc.

 

[Neoleo21]

I always found sheik gimps in brawl far more entertaining to watch than traditional edgehogging, I find that more physical contact to shove the opponent off the stage is better for the viewer, its not like this change to the ledge is going to completely stop people from trying to gimp each other any way, cause meteors exist for this opportunity, so long as the edgeguarding player gets a better ability to chase the other guy of course.