Learn More About Smash 4's Neutral Game From Keitaro and False

[BareHand]

All about the spacing, even in real life.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm more of an air fighter, so this doesn't really effect me. Still though, this was a good way to break down something already known and make it simple.

 

[[NameGoesHere]]

Moral: Smash isn't just defensive

WARNING: TEXT FLOOD BELOW! IF YOU HAVEN'T THE PATIENCE, THEN JUST READ THE FIRST LINE OF THIS POST AND BE DONE, IF YOU CARE FOR AN IN DEPTH EXPLANATION, KEEP READING! (sorry for the caps barrage)
===========================================


I'm a tournament player too so i know all of this stuff, and it doesn't seem complicated to me. The moral of my post was that whenever i watch tournaments in Smash 4, people seem to over-rely on spacing and defensive play, and then since people see tournament players play defensively, they play defensively, then eventually we get Brawl all over again. Anyways, the point is that people need to stop treating this game like Brawl, and try to be more offensive. There are so many characters that are good in this game... like Game and Watch as an example (who, when played offensively can pose a threat, yet when played defensively doesn't have all of the required tools - ex: not the best spacing options + poor ranged projectiles) that are automatically considered to be bad characters.

Another example is Mario, Mario is considered to have been buffed quite a bit from Brawl, yet still a so-so character, and that's because they are playing the plumber defensively. Mario can literally combo all day in a vast percentage range - (about 20-180% with lower %s depending on timing and higher %s depending on mid-air jump timing and attack precision.) - with his up-air, yet, in tournaments, i will see Mario use maybe one up-air before returning to neutral, as opposed to comboing with up-air until the foe is off-stage and then hitting them with a forward-air to seal the game.

If people would stop spamming bananas as Diddy (which thankfully isn't that annoying anymore), and mashing and as Sheik for 1 hour at the very least, then maybe... just, maybe, you guys would know that Smash 4 is neither all defense (like how people view it) or all offense (like how i make it seem), it is both offensive and defense, and you may have heard similar before like the "Smash has no playstyle" theory, but that wasn't entirely true as certain playstyles used to outclass and overpower others.
For Example
---
OF = Offense Ratio ; DEF = Defense Ratio
Smash 64 Playstyle: Precise Button Mashing playstyle
OF = 70
DEF = 30

Melee Playstyle: Offensive, Rushdown, Relentless yet Precise, Mindgame-based playstyle
OF = 80
DEF = 20
Brawl Playstyle: Defensive, Patient, Campy, Strategy/Pressure-Based playstyle
OF = 20
DEF = 80

Smash 4's Playstyle?: Rushdown yet Patient, Relentless yet Strategic, Precise, Mindgame/Pressure-based/Calculated playstyle
OF = 50
DEF = 50.
-----
I hope in the near future that Smash 4 will regain it's offensive prowess again. Offense and Defense can co-exist

"Mashing A and B as Shiek for an hour" lol What are they supposed to attack with? The Gc adapter?

 

[RoA_Zam]

Like how the video explains neutral, just not fond of the game itself.

 

[False]

Thanks for sharing. (:

 

[Deleted member]

"Mashing A and B as Shiek for an hour" lol What are they supposed to attack with? The Gc adapter?

The sentence goes: "if people would stop spamming bananas as Diddy (which thankfully isn't that annoying anymore), and mashing and as Sheik for 1 hour at the very least, then maybe... just, maybe, you guys would know that Smash 4 is neither all defense (like how people view it) or all offense (like how i make it seem), it is both offensive and defense, and you may have heard similar before like the "Smash has no playstyle" theory, but that wasn't entirely true as certain playstyles used to outclass and overpower others."

In other words: "I am saying that if people took 1 hour out of their day to stop spamming bananas and mashing A and B as Sheik, then you could learn something"

I wasn't saying "mashing A and B as Sheik for an hour".... obviously you guys mash A and B as Sheik for much longer than that...

 

[BestNameEver]

Moral: Smash isn't just defensive

WARNING: TEXT FLOOD BELOW! IF YOU HAVEN'T THE PATIENCE, THEN JUST READ THE FIRST LINE OF THIS POST AND BE DONE, IF YOU CARE FOR AN IN DEPTH EXPLANATION, KEEP READING! (sorry for the caps barrage)
===========================================


I'm a tournament player too so i know all of this stuff, and it doesn't seem complicated to me. The moral of my post was that whenever i watch tournaments in Smash 4, people seem to over-rely on spacing and defensive play, and then since people see tournament players play defensively, they play defensively, then eventually we get Brawl all over again. Anyways, the point is that people need to stop treating this game like Brawl, and try to be more offensive. There are so many characters that are good in this game... like Game and Watch as an example (who, when played offensively can pose a threat, yet when played defensively doesn't have all of the required tools - ex: not the best spacing options + poor ranged projectiles) that are automatically considered to be bad characters.

Another example is Mario, Mario is considered to have been buffed quite a bit from Brawl, yet still a so-so character, and that's because they are playing the plumber defensively. Mario can literally combo all day in a vast percentage range - (about 20-180% with lower %s depending on timing and higher %s depending on mid-air jump timing and attack precision.) - with his up-air, yet, in tournaments, i will see Mario use maybe one up-air before returning to neutral, as opposed to comboing with up-air until the foe is off-stage and then hitting them with a forward-air to seal the game.

If people would stop spamming bananas as Diddy (which thankfully isn't that annoying anymore), and mashing and as Sheik for 1 hour at the very least, then maybe... just, maybe, you guys would know that Smash 4 is neither all defense (like how people view it) or all offense (like how i make it seem), it is both offensive and defense, and you may have heard similar before like the "Smash has no playstyle" theory, but that wasn't entirely true as certain playstyles used to outclass and overpower others.
For Example
---
OF = Offense Ratio ; DEF = Defense Ratio
Smash 64 Playstyle: Precise Button Mashing playstyle
OF = 70
DEF = 30

Melee Playstyle: Offensive, Rushdown, Relentless yet Precise, Mindgame-based playstyle
OF = 80
DEF = 20
Brawl Playstyle: Defensive, Patient, Campy, Strategy/Pressure-Based playstyle
OF = 20
DEF = 80

Smash 4's Playstyle?: Rushdown yet Patient, Relentless yet Strategic, Precise, Mindgame/Pressure-based/Calculated playstyle
OF = 50
DEF = 50.
-----
I hope in the near future that Smash 4 will regain it's offensive prowess again. Offense and Defense can co-exist

...Melee is very much in favor of defense. Spacies are more or less the only characters with reliable offensive options.

 

[R.O.B. the Red Rocket]

good job there

 

[Baby_Sneak]

...Melee is very much in favor of defense. Spacies are more or less the only characters with reliable offensive options.

Most viable characters in melee has some sort of offensive game (since it's the most rewarding), and a limited defensive game ( my use of 'limited' means situational use of such). Like, there's like no character in melee that rewards you more for defense and traditional zoning instead of offensive zoning and pressure.

 

[Deleted member]

Most viable characters in melee has some sort of offensive game (since it's the most rewarding), and a limited defensive game ( my use of 'limited' means situational use of such). Like, there's like no character in melee that rewards you more for defense and traditional zoning instead of offensive zoning and pressure.

speaking of which, after doing extensive zoning/spacing testing, Mewtwo may not be as bad people thought.

Edit: Melee Mewtwo, that is.

 

[CE_TheLord]

Excellent video! We need more of this, specially when you struggle by getting used to the new engine like me

 

[BestNameEver]

Most viable characters in melee has some sort of offensive game (since it's the most rewarding), and a limited defensive game ( my use of 'limited' means situational use of such). Like, there's like no character in melee that rewards you more for defense and traditional zoning instead of offensive zoning and pressure.

Not true, defense will always beat offence. Jumping is bad in Melee. It puts you in a very unfavorable position. The ledge is such a good position in comparison to say, the corner in traditional fighters. Many people tend to forget how broken CC is, and the fact that it's impossible to get your opponent in the air without a grab due to this. Along with this, people are getting better and better at utilizing defense in Melee. Shield drops, ledge canceling hitstun, and wiggling out of tumble are becoming more popular tactics.

Sheik lacks a proper approach. Marth has too much hang time and not enough KB for fair to be a reliable approach. We all know Falcon is bait and punish. Peach is just too slow, but being the only other character with godly shield pressure is nice. Even Falco is limited if you powersheild his laser.

With all that being said, here's the thing. Approaching is bad in Melee, but you are still very well rewarded for landing your hit. Saying "Offensive, Rushdown," is an over simplification, and the offense to defense ration presented was ridiculous.

Speaking of which, the ratio for Smash 4 was also off. Seriously, what aspects of the game make it more offensively inclined then Brawl was?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Speaking of which, the ratio for Smash 4 was also off. Seriously, what aspects of the game make it more offensively inclined then Brawl was?

Well, there is Hitstun increase and lack of air dodge during tumble (which means actual reward for hitting somebody +1), but truthfully, the game may end up like USF4 since many approaches and setups will have some lag and will be punishable on block. But, it's not a bad thing though.
Lastly, I have yet to see a melee match that show each player respecting their opponent's defense options. Wonder why (just sayin man).

 

[BestNameEver]

Lastly, I have yet to see a melee match that show each player respecting their opponent's defense options. Wonder why (just sayin man).

Have you even seen Armada vs Mango in recent years? Mango started beating Armada because he started playing patiently and respectively. Players like Armada, Hbox, and Westballz prey on players who will mindlessly rush in. Just because you aren't rolling and shielding doesn't
mean you aren't playing defensively.

There is more reward for getting a hit than in Brawl, but not much more, and only at low percents really. Damage output for each hit is lower than in past Smash games. Actually having hitstun is offset by high BKB. And considerably less moves auto cancel in 4 than Brawl, making approach somewhat worse than in Brawl. Reward for landing a hit is also offset by ridiculous recoveries that require hard reads to deal with. Gimps are non- existent against any character that isn't little mac. So having stage control doesn't mean much. People say airdodges were nerfed but they really weren't due to insane IASA on them. Along with that, the prowess of stage control is also offset by amazing rolls, as you can just roll behind your opponent when they throw out a move trying to maintain the stage.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

There is more reward for getting a hit than in Brawl, but not much more, and only at low percents really. Damage output for each hit is lower than in past Smash games. Actually having hitstun is offset by high BKB. And considerably less moves auto cancel in 4 than Brawl, making approach somewhat worse than in Brawl. Reward for landing a hit is also offset by ridiculous recoveries that require hard reads to deal with. Gimps are non- existent against any character that isn't little mac. So having stage control doesn't mean much. People say air dodges were nerfed but they really weren't due to insane IASA on them. Along with that, the prowess of stage control is also offset by amazing rolls, as you can just roll behind your opponent when they throw out a move trying to maintain the stage.

Ima use the same excuse everybody been using: the game is brand new. Like, it's like judging melee as a competitive in 2002 (melee released in 2001), it's just too early to dismiss it already.
with that out of the way, I'm going to address your points now.
1. I've seen some pretty damaging combos before, and even if combos are low percent specific, that means that at higher percents, attacks are going to affect you positionally.
2. Approaches isn't just attacking people by air, It's more than that. Also, I believe that approaches are going to be MU-specific due to all the characters in the game. But, less auto-cancel moves does affect approaches badly though.
3. recoveries aren't even hard to deal like that honestly. It's more like brawl in a sense that you punish them more in an extreme sense (extreme offstage/extreme onstage).
4. air dodges were nerfed. Badly. even in brawl, all you have to do is read the air dodge and punish. But now, It's worse since you can bait them to air dodge late and punish the mess out of them when they land. Lastly, punishing rolls is also like punishing them in brawl (brawl falco spot dodge, brawl D3 spot dodge, etc...)
5. Stage Control is still relevent here because you're near the stage and if you're predictable, it's like impossible to get out.

 

[Gamepadnews]

This helped me understand some fundamentals of the game more than anything else.

 

[IdkLmao]

this video series pushes their paradigms and ideas of how they view the game on us like facts

There is no such thing as a neutral game
What a joke

 

[Poofball:3]

That video really just made me even more confused about the neutral....

 

[DERUdesu]

Loved the guide, im the kind of guy who likes to be on the offensive. I like to try to out tech at a very fast pace and ive gotten better with these tutorials. I wonder if theres a video that better explains the off edge game

 

[Zaabrey]

Finally, it makes sense!

Now I really got something to work with in the Neutral game. Thank you!