Lame Falco players

[FrankDaTank]

I went to a tournament yesterday where I played a mixture of Marth and Sheik, and I ended up placing relatively well, but I would have gotten a better placing if i;t wasn't for this one really, really stupid Falco player.

I almost never have trouble with most characters at my level of play, which I'd say is mid-highish level.

Anyway, this guy I lost to just played really lame. He would absolutely refuse to approach you and would just short hop laser over and over and over and try to bait a dumb approach from me. If he forced me into shield, he would always get these insanely lucky shieldstabs that people rarely ever get on me at all and I'd just have to take the hits.

Then, if he whiffed an aerial on shield or just in general, he would almost always spot dodge. I was so damn close to beating him because it went to game three, but I just couldn't bait out enough of his spot dodges to win, though I did bait out maybe 75% of them and his dumb laser camping was just really, really annoying. Maybe I got impatient, but **** Falco players who just laser in place over and over.

God, that pissed me off because I know I'm better than that and I shouldn't lose to such a lame playstyle.

How do you play against really lame Falcos like this guy as Marth or even Sheik? I didn't try Sheik against him but maybe someone here can give me advice on that too.

 

[JoJoe]

Well first of all, you're not gonna get anywhere if you disregard your losses as your opponent being a ******

 

[FrankDaTank]

Well first of all, you're not gonna get anywhere if you disregard your losses as your opponent being a ******

I never said he was, it's just that I really feel like that kind of playstyle shouldn't work. Seriously, spotdodging after whiffing an aerial almost every time and just standing in place shooting lasers? Come on. Would you want to play against someone like that?

 

[Miyuki]

I never said he was, it's just that I really feel like that kind of playstyle shouldn't work. Seriously, spotdodging after whiffing an aerial almost every time and just standing in place shooting lasers? Come on. Would you want to play against someone like that?

If it shouldn't work, you wouldn't lose.

 

[Kirodin]

I would say try to stay closer to the falco. Pros seem to be really good at never offering falco enough space to begin a laser camp. Once you do this, you might bait out unsafe lasers and be able to punish. But when you inevitably are separated and you're getting laser camped, then shield the lasers and WD in until you're just outside his dair range. If you can get a read on when falco will try to stuff you with dair, try to bait it out and punish with dash dance grab, fair (be careful, this is likely to trade), or WD back. If you get the read that he'll SH laser again, swat him with fair or dash attack. If you're expecting to get hit by the laser in the air, you might still be able to throw out an aerial before you land. Also work on power shielding the lasers, they definitely screw with falco's timing. Using the platforms can be useful too, but don't let falco get directly under you.

As far as punishing spot dodges, that's pretty tricky. If you're baiting out 75% of them, you're doing a pretty good job. Spot dodges like that work so well because they prey on bad habits, like immediately shield grabbing when your opponent whiffs an aerial. You could improve this by mixing up your OOS options. For example, throwing out a fair out of shield, if spaced well, could leave you enough time to punish a spot dodge. WD OOS is usually safe and could give you enough time to punish a spot dodge if you're expecting it.

None of these things are easy or guaranteed, so make sure to practice them in friendlies before expecting them to help in tournament. It's good that you're asking for advice, but trash talking someone's playstyle is pretty ****ty and will just put you on tilt. The reason his playstyle works is because it punishes faulty approaches. The lasers themselves don't rack up much percent. If you want to stop losing that matchup, you'll have to figure out what mistakes you're being punished for and control the lame parts of your own game plan

 

[FE_Hector]

Also, if he really just wants to laser in place, you can almost definitely gain a ton of space just by using platforms to your advantage. Get near where he is and fall through the platform with a well-spaced fair to get yourself a grab. On top of that, a lot of Falco's aren't too good at mixing up their laser heights, so especially if he's shooting lasers too high, crouch/dash underneath them and take the space that's yours. Dashing underneath lasers works pretty well for both Marth and Sheik, and having good platform movement and a solid understanding of what you've gotta do vs a low % Falco (especially for Sheik) is extremely important. Also remember that each laser is only gonna deal you 2-3%, so taking a few of them isn't really gonna hurt you, especially if you're used to acting out of laser stun.

Alternatively, you could just be Ken and hop in with a counter that's gonna work cuz they're gonna laser, but that's probably gonna be more of a one-time trick vs most people.

 

[FrankDaTank]

I would say try to stay closer to the falco. Pros seem to be really good at never offering falco enough space to begin a laser camp. Once you do this, you might bait out unsafe lasers and be able to punish. But when you inevitably are separated and you're getting laser camped, then shield the lasers and WD in until you're just outside his dair range. If you can get a read on when falco will try to stuff you with dair, try to bait it out and punish with dash dance grab, fair (be careful, this is likely to trade), or WD back. If you get the read that he'll SH laser again, swat him with fair or dash attack. If you're expecting to get hit by the laser in the air, you might still be able to throw out an aerial before you land. Also work on power shielding the lasers, they definitely screw with falco's timing. Using the platforms can be useful too, but don't let falco get directly under you.

As far as punishing spot dodges, that's pretty tricky. If you're baiting out 75% of them, you're doing a pretty good job. Spot dodges like that work so well because they prey on bad habits, like immediately shield grabbing when your opponent whiffs an aerial. You could improve this by mixing up your OOS options. For example, throwing out a fair out of shield, if spaced well, could leave you enough time to punish a spot dodge. WD OOS is usually safe and could give you enough time to punish a spot dodge if you're expecting it.

None of these things are easy or guaranteed, so make sure to practice them in friendlies before expecting them to help in tournament. It's good that you're asking for advice, but trash talking someone's playstyle is pretty ****ty and will just put you on tilt. The reason his playstyle works is because it punishes faulty approaches. The lasers themselves don't rack up much percent. If you want to stop losing that matchup, you'll have to figure out what mistakes you're being punished for and control the lame parts of your own game plan

Sorry if I came across as that kind of person, but I was just seriously pissed about losing to what seems like such a simple playstyle to counter. I used to struggle with Falco so much because of the lasers, but it was mostly against Falcos who would actually approach and not just sit there and do nothing but shoot lasers.

I'll have to rematch this guy sometime and figure out how to win because I hate losing to super campy and non approaching playstyles. It just makes me feel like I'm insanely bad at the game to lose to that.

 

[FrankDaTank]

Also, if he really just wants to laser in place, you can almost definitely gain a ton of space just by using platforms to your advantage. Get near where he is and fall through the platform with a well-spaced fair to get yourself a grab. On top of that, a lot of Falco's aren't too good at mixing up their laser heights, so especially if he's shooting lasers too high, crouch/dash underneath them and take the space that's yours. Dashing underneath lasers works pretty well for both Marth and Sheik, and having good platform movement and a solid understanding of what you've gotta do vs a low % Falco (especially for Sheik) is extremely important. Also remember that each laser is only gonna deal you 2-3%, so taking a few of them isn't really gonna hurt you, especially if you're used to acting out of laser stun.

Alternatively, you could just be Ken and hop in with a counter that's gonna work cuz they're gonna laser, but that's probably gonna be more of a one-time trick vs most people.

See, my main problem I think is acting out of laser stun. How do I know when to act? Because I usually just try to shield the lasers and if I know they're gonna throw out an aerial or something after I physically get hit with a laser, then I'll always just shield. Is that bad? If it is, what should I do alternatively?

 

[FE_Hector]

In my opinion, there isn't too much of a reason to shield lasers if they're not gonna approach/ can't feasibly approach and you can act out of laser stun. AFAIK, lasers have 12 frames of stun, or 1/5 of a second. If you have 20XX, I'm pretty sure you can set 3.02 AIs to just spam SHL. Try just DDing or jumping out of laser stun and get it down so you're not even bothered by it.

Most of the time a Falco does laser -> aerial, it's not really a true combo and instead sets up for shield pressure. The further they are from you and the more they delay putting out their hitbox, the further from true it is. I'm pretty sure there are some situations where shielding laser -> WD back -> grab whiffed aerial isn't too tough, it's just a matter of getting a feel for it (generally if they can't dash -> instant aerial, you should be able to do this).

Another trick I'll use on occasion to get out of pressure is shield laser -> buffered full hop -> WL on plat to avoid whatever their followup is. Playing the ditto, this means that I can slide off and shoot another laser, but Marth could use this to get around their approach and possibly come down with a fair or a quick grab, because sometimes Falco's will panic in that situation and either shield or laser. Lasers have a fair amount of startup, so a confident grab in closer quarters wins. I suppose this isn't super duper useful against a Falco that doesn't approach, but it should be helpful overall.

 

[thf24]

Not trying to be a ****, but in addition to taking the great advice given here, lose the idea that you're "mid highish level" if you're losing to what you described. You'll improve faster and have a better mental outlook if you avoid deluding yourself into believing you're better than you really are.

 

[FrankDaTank]

Not trying to be a ****, but in addition to taking the great advice given here, lose the idea that you're "mid highish level" if you're losing to what you described. You'll improve faster and have a better mental outlook if you avoid deluding yourself into believing you're better than you really are.

Yeah, sorry about that. Like I said, I was just really pissed about losing to that. It makes me feels so bad by losing to something that I feel shouldn't be all that hard to deal with, if you get my drift. Sorry for the tone I came across with.

 

[FrankDaTank]

In my opinion, there isn't too much of a reason to shield lasers if they're not gonna approach/ can't feasibly approach and you can act out of laser stun. AFAIK, lasers have 12 frames of stun, or 1/5 of a second. If you have 20XX, I'm pretty sure you can set 3.02 AIs to just spam SHL. Try just DDing or jumping out of laser stun and get it down so you're not even bothered by it.

Most of the time a Falco does laser -> aerial, it's not really a true combo and instead sets up for shield pressure. The further they are from you and the more they delay putting out their hitbox, the further from true it is. I'm pretty sure there are some situations where shielding laser -> WD back -> grab whiffed aerial isn't too tough, it's just a matter of getting a feel for it (generally if they can't dash -> instant aerial, you should be able to do this).

Another trick I'll use on occasion to get out of pressure is shield laser -> buffered full hop -> WL on plat to avoid whatever their followup is. Playing the ditto, this means that I can slide off and shoot another laser, but Marth could use this to get around their approach and possibly come down with a fair or a quick grab, because sometimes Falco's will panic in that situation and either shield or laser. Lasers have a fair amount of startup, so a confident grab in closer quarters wins. I suppose this isn't super duper useful against a Falco that doesn't approach, but it should be helpful overall.

Huh. Definitely some interesting advice I'll have to try out there, thanks a lot. Very helpful!

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Heh, this was what happened to me at my first tournament. The guy went to FD and just spammed lasers. And there aren't any platforms so I couldn't escape. I just had to know how to deal with it, and I didn't at the time. I ended 1 stock away from making it out of pools. I was mad but then I found out I was going to fight Hanky Panky if I made it to bracket after winning that set, so I said "ok good, i'm glad I lost then. Let that Falco guy be the one getting rekt instead". lol

As someone else mentioned, you can step up this exact situation on 20XX, so you can practice this that way. Here's the best and easiest way to deal with this, to my knowledge, and that is to powershield the lasers back at him. Powershielding is important to learn anyways, so if you just get powershielding down, that'll help a lot. If you were powershielding, and he was still beating you.....then that's interesting. But it's also good to mix up your options, so use the other advice you've gotten as well.

With all the tools at your disposal, you can send a message to that guy when you rematch him that he actually needs to learn how to play Falco

 

[FE_Hector]

Heh, this was what happened to me at my first tournament. The guy went to FD and just spammed lasers. And there aren't any platforms so I couldn't escape. I just had to know how to deal with it, and I didn't at the time. I ended 1 stock away from making it out of pools. I was mad but then I found out I was going to fight Hanky Panky if I made it to bracket after winning that set, so I said "ok good, i'm glad I lost then. Let that Falco guy be the one getting rekt instead". lol

As someone else mentioned, you can step up this exact situation on 20XX, so you can practice this that way. Here's the best and easiest way to deal with this, to my knowledge, and that is to powershield the lasers back at him. Powershielding is important to learn anyways, so if you just get powershielding down, that'll help a lot. If you were powershielding, and he was still beating you.....then that's interesting. But it's also good to mix up your options, so use the other advice you've gotten as well.

With all the tools at your disposal, you can send a message to that guy when you rematch him that he actually needs to learn how to play Falco

This gets really fun on the Falco's end as soon as we learn anti-PS stuff or know to expect powershields and all that.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

This gets really fun on the Falco's end as soon as we learn anti-PS stuff or know to expect powershields and all that.

So Falcos can learn to expect and punish powershields but they can't learn to expect and punish an opponent jumping out of laser stun or the other things you listed? I find that hard to believe. Besides, we're talking about incompetent "lame Falco players", like the guys me and FrankDaTank played. Any of these strategies, including powershielding, will work against them.

 

[FE_Hector]

So Falcos can learn to expect and punish powershields but they can't learn to expect and punish an opponent jumping out of laser stun or the other things you listed? I find that hard to believe. Besides, we're talking about incompetent "lame Falco players", like the guys me and FrankDaTank played. Any of these strategies, including powershielding, will work against them.

You're right, I completely jumped ahead of myself in terms of this MU. Anti-powershielding stuff is applied by very few players, none of which afaik are anywhere near the level of a Falco that sits there trying to laser camp.