S-Critical
Smash Cadet
Project no.12: Optimising Forward throw at mid percentage range
Provided by the Fox Discord Lab Team
Provided by the Fox Discord Lab Team
IMPORTANT NOTE: In case you guys didn’t know, each combo mentioned includes a gfycat demonstration. They are hyperlinked with the title for each combo!
Introduction:
I was watching one of my good friends’ set against a Sonic player on Youtube, and he did an interesting thing at some point during the first match. I was actually quite interested to see what else Fox can pull off, and what I am talking about is combos starting with Fthrow at mid percent range. What I will be going through are the most optimum combos you can go for when using Fthrow.
Now before I begin, I need to address something. Your opponent must miss the tech in order for those combos to work.
General information about Forward throw
At mid percent range (≈40-70%), an Fthrow from Fox can send opponents into tumble animation, forcing them to tech. If they miss these techs, Fox has enough time to follow up with combos. Let me show you what I mean, and using Mario as an example.
Excluding the hitlag frames, it takes 35 frames for Mario to land onto the platform when taking an Fthrow from Fox at 40% (minimum percentage for Mario to go into tumble animation due to Fthrow) with no DI. It also takes Mario 26 frames to be able to buffer a getup option. Therefore, it took a total of 61 frames for Mario to be able to escape from any harm. But with that information, we know that, due to the missed tech, Mario was vulnerable for over 1 second, and this gives us plenty of time for Fox to punish the missed tech. Let’s see what combos we can pull off.
(yes, DI does in fact affect this, and I talk about it later on)
Also, rage does in fact change the percentage in which the character would go into tumble animation.
between 35-59% rage its -5% on tumble
60-79% its -10%
80-109% its -15%
110-134% its -20%
135%+ its -25%
So for example, Mario would go into tumble at 30% instead of 40% if Fox was at 60-79% rage.
Key:
FTHC- Forward Tilt Hip Check (AKA Butt ftilt to some). Don’t know what it is? Check this video
Shadowing- The ability to constantly be underneath your opponent, no matter what direction they opt to go for at any given moment.
List of true combos with Fthrow
Fthrow>FTHC>Utilt>Nair
This combo is very straightforward to do, and will be the simplest extended combo that you can do. It deals about 31%, which is quite good for a combo that is very easy to do. This combo also has different variations to it, such as Fthrow>FTHC>Utilt>Dair, Fthrow>FTHC>Utilt>Fair and Fthrow>FTHC>Utilt>Uair (it is possible to get a second uair in there which will be big damage!). Fthrow>FTHC>Utilt>Bair is NOT a true combo, so do not go for it, as the opponent does have time to attack you or escape easily (if they don’t airdodge. If they do airdodge, then feel free to follow up with another utilt).
Fthrow>FTHC>Utilt>Nair is very good if you want to push your opponent towards the edge of the stage, in which you can do more effective shield pressure and potentially get them offstage. If you end the combo with Dair instead of Nair, you can followup with more aerials, depending on what option your opponent goes for. Try to chase them with Uairs and Nairs so you can keep them in the air or offstage, which can allow you to apply more pressure in those situations and potentially close out the stock. Ending the combo with Fair has similar benefits, but the Fair launches the opponent higher than Dair, so you may want to focus more on juggling, rather than putting them offstage (if they do not opt to go to the ledge).
Fthrow>FTHC>Grab
This is another simple combo for you to do, and gives you quite a bit of freedom of what you can do with it. After the turnaround grab, I would recommend doing roughly 4-5 pummels to get some small damage before you throw your opponent. With each throw doing between roughly 7-8%, the damage output should be roughly the same. Ending the combo with Fthrow can be a good option to go for if you are near the ledge and want to gain stage control and apply pressure at the ledge when the opponent attempts to come come back onto the stage. Dthrow can create opportunities for you to juggle if you read your opponent well enough. Try to read airdodges, double jumps or attacks if the opponent decides to fade back onto the stage, and start applying pressure at the ledge if your opponent decides to fade back offstage to grab the ledge. Uthrow can also create situations like these, and you may want to do this if you are at the centre, as you have plenty of room to shadow your opponent and apply pressure in the air by purposely going for uairs that you know will miss to get a panic reaction from them, potentially conditioning them so you can punish hard later on in the match. Bthrow isn’t necessarily useful in this combo, as you would basically be throwing the opponent to the other side of the stage, where they can land safely, and allow them to reset neutral unless they jump offstage. I would stay away from using this throw, since FTHC>Pivot grab is not true.
Fthrow>FTHC>Ftilt
Another combo that can be used to get you stage control and corner your opponent. Although there aren’t any clear followups after this, you should aim to limit your opponent’s options by walling out with aerials (nair, bair and dair can do that pretty well, as well as spaced ftilts and using movement to keep your opponent guessing on what you will be doing next). Fthrow>FTHC>Dsmash is similar, but you have a greater chance of getting your opponent offstage, which can set up ledge pressure and edgeguarding. Since you have your back towards the opponent, you can perfect pivot your way to the ledge so you keep your back towards your opponent, so if you do get a utilt, you get the strong hitbox that can easily combo into uair.
Fthrow>Foxtrot>PP Utilt>Uair>Uair
This is the combo that has the highest damage output compared to the other optimum combos that we have been able to discover. This combo can easily take an opponent to high percent, and even usmash kill percent range, depending on their weight (want to find out the usmash kill percents for every character on all legal stages? Click here). This combo sends the opponent very high up in the air, giving you plenty of time to shadow their movement and juggle them with even more uairs and possibly condition them, and you can pull off a firefox to kill if you catch them airdodging.
Fthrow>Foxtrot>Dtilt>Footstool>FF Nair>AC Dair>Uair
This is another cool combo we managed to find out, and can be creative with the jab lock, and do other combos if you wish. For example, you could go for FTHC>Uair>Uair instead, which would actually do more damage, or you could opt for firefox. You can also end the combo with RAR bair, if you with to do so. The only disadvantage of this combo is that Dtilt>Footstool is NOT a true combo. If the opponent buffers an attack, they can hit you while you try to footstool them. However, if they airdodge, you can come back down with a nair and do other combos.
Setups for Fthrow combos
AC Dair combos at 0%
At 0%, you can true combo your way to mid percent range where fthrow can put opponents into tumble animation. By doing AC Dair>Footstool>Nair>Ftilt x2>AC Dair>RAR Bair>Pivot grab>fthrow, you can successfully get your opponent from 0-40% in a true combo style. From my experience in doing this combo, the AC Dair>RAR Bair can be kinda hard to pull off, and you may end up doing a dash dance>RAR Bair, which will either end in 2 ways:
- You will still hit your opponent, but the space between you two is too big, so you can no longer do any true followups
- Your bair will end up wiffing, dropping the combo
- You may end up dashing for too long, and end up in front of your opponent
However, getting this combo down correctly means that you can potentially get your opponent from 0-90% using 2 different combos that link up nicely. TIP: against fastfallers, I would recommend doing this combo above 10%, since doing AC Dair on them at 0 will not allow you to do the footstool>nair jab lock combo, as they immediately land in a matter of frames.
Furthermore, if you end up doing this combo with not much room to do it with, try to land with nair behind the opponent, so the opponent moves towards the bigger space, so you can use the rest of the stage to do the combo, like so.
Dair (landing hitbox)
The landing hitbox of dair true combos into a grab. You can use this easy combo to set up for the fthrow combos above. A good thing about this is that you can do it practically anywhere, as it does not require as much space, and if you know what you’re doing, you can easily land a dair in your game. I would recommend doing a few pummels if your opponent is below 40%, like in the example in the title.
Bair
Bair is a very good move to use when setting up the fthrow situation. Because Bair can actually put opponents into tumble below 40% (We have made a chart on how early Fox’s moves can put opponents into tumble animation. Click here to view it. Credits to v23 for collecting this info!). This move also gives them even less time to tech it, as they are in the air for a lot less time compared to fthrow, so their chances of missing the tech may even increase if they do not expect it.
Fthrow and how DI affects it
Now, I mentioned before on how DI can affect fthrow combos actually happening. Depending on DI, the chances of you being able to land any combos can range from very possible to impossible (unless your opponent doesn’t know how to jump lol). I tested what fthrow is like on two different characters with different properties, which are Mario and Greninja. Mario being a middleweight with average properties in just about everything, and Greninja being a lightweight fast faller. I tested what percentages the characters are forced to tech with various DI. Here is what we found:
Mario
- DI in: Can jump out at 40%
- DI away: 40-85%
- DI up: 40-41%
- No DI: 40-42%
Greninja
- DI in: Can jump out at 40%
- DI away: 40-115%
- DI up: 40-42%
- No DI: 40-69%
So from this conclusion, If the opponent DIs in or up, they can pretty much escape this combo, however, DI’ing away will pretty much make this inescapable unless they tech (if you guys know about the spinning reel animation being untechable, it basically means that fthrow>usmash is a true combo! Don’t know about it? Click here), and no DI is based on the character’s weight and fall speed, which is why i would not recommend doing this combo on floaty characters, since they have a much smaller range in which the fthrow situation can happen. So what about DI down? How does that affect it?
DI down
As expected, when DI’ing down, the opponent will reach the ground earlier than with no DI. With the image I had above, Mario lands on frame 35 with no DI, but….
There is an 8 frame difference when Mario DIs down, and when he has no DI. Luckily, you still have some frames to get a FTHC before he is able to buffer a getup option. I was able to get FTHC as early as frame 50, and with 53 frames of not being able to do anything, you still have time. However, it starts to become troublesome with fast fallers
Greninja is able to buffer an option on frame 49, meaning that we may not be able to get a FTHC in there. In this case, it may just be better to go for dash attack, which also has some followups, but none of which are true, unfortunately.
What if they actually tech it?
Luckily, there are some options we can go for in case they do actually tech it. For example, Foxtrot>PP Utilt can cover a normal tech getup, but FTHC will not be able to cover it, and the opponent can shield any other option after that. If they do a tech roll away from you, you can cover it with a FTHC>Utlt, and the utilt will catch them. There isn’t much you can do to cover a tech roll towards you, but if you do see it coming, feel free to punish with anything you want! Tipper dtilt can hit them at that range, so you can set up combos that way, or you can use turnaround utilt or dsmash or whatever!
That’s all that we’ve been able to find out about fthrow at mid percent! Hope this helps you guys out when trying to get your opponent from early mid percent to high percent :D. We’ve worked on this for some time, so it would be nice if you could share this with other Foxes!
-Fox discord Lab team.
Come and join the discord!
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