L-Canceling, WDing, quick-jumping...alot of black smoke?

[xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx]

I hear alot about how everyone needs to L-cancel, and that if you want to win you gotta WD, or that quick-jumping is the key to survival. Well, I'm wondering if all this stuff really makes you better, or its just a bunch of "black smoke" that just makes you look fancy.

Now, before I explain, let me tell you that I L-Cancel, CC, and quick jump with almost all of my characters, so I have nothing against them at all. WDing on the other hand...I'll get to that later.

I've been playing alot of my buddies, and alot of outside competition, and I've noticed a deepening trend...those who WD and/or L-Cancel...don't really have that much of an advantage. One of my friends is real good, but knows NONE of these so-called "advanced" techniques, and gets beat-down on my buddies (and soemtiems even me) just as easily. He doesn't do anything fancy, he just gets the job done. And it seems, that if maybe he DID learn all that fancy mumbo-jumbo, he would lose more often. Its not because WDing, or CCing isn't helpful, its just he doesn't seem to need it and is fine on his own.

The message I'm getting across here is...do you really need to know these things to be good? Can you be just as successful without them?

On Wave Dashing IMO WDing is the biggest waste of skill on the planet. Sure it looks nice, and it makes ya seem real good but in the end its nothing more than eye-candy. The ONLY character I could see a use for it, is maybe Luigi. Other than that, the WD isn't needed.


EDIT=spelling

 

[M3D]

*Hands goat a flame-shield and runs for cover*

 

[BrandedRage]

L-Canceling, CCing, and teching REALLY helps me out.

Wavedashing.....no

 

[xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx]

MMMD, I'm used to it

**takes flameshield just in case**

 

[NCAAKirby]

L-Cancelling is an absolute must. I mean, it makes some characters, Like Ganondorf, competitive, and it allows you to combo at lightning speeds. The short hop is great for executing certain moves for certain characters (Falco's blaster, Marth's slash), and is an integral part of their strategies. As, for WD'ing. For some characters, it is faster than running, and thus an advantage, and therefore should be capitalized upon.

 

[Impmacaque]

I've been playing alot of my buddies, and alot of outside competition, and I've noticed a deepening trend...those who WD and/or L-Cancel...don't really have that much of an advantage. One of my friends is real good, but knows NONE of these so-called "advanced" techniques, and gets beat-down on my buddies (and soemtiems even me) just as easily. He doesn't do anything fancy, he just gets the job done. And it seems, that if maybe he DID learn all that fancy mumbo-jumbo, he would lose more often. Its not because WDing, or CCing isn't helpful, its just he doesn't seem to need it and is fine on his own.

Ok. The thing about L-cancelling and CCing, is that either way you look at it, they provide an advantage to the player. Even though the advantage is small, it's still signifcant. In tournament play, every advantage counts. L-cancelling completely speeds up your game by reducing landing recovery from whatever move it is by half. Either way you look at it, it's helpful. CCing can reduce the knockback of several attacks in half. Is there any downside to this process? No. Again, this improves your game a bit, and every bit counts.

Wavedashing is just as usefull as some of the above techniques. My favorite being wavedashing backwards to catch in edge, just as my opponent is recovering. It gains me slight invincibility from the opponent's recovery move, thus causing them to fall to their doom. Other uses are moving faster. Some characters (Luigi, Marth) move faster using WD. Not only this, but you can fake opponent's out easily by wavedashing/dashing forward and then quickly wavedashing backwards. Your opponent foolishly attacks as he sees you approach, and ends up in a perfect position to hurt them with any attack of yours. Are these benifits completely necessary? No. The point is, that the advanced players push the game every bit they can. They try and take advantage of every little thing that can help them. That's why they're good....

 

[Masque]

Goat, you have guts...

...But I agree. I do L-Cancel/Float Cancel, don't CC all the time, and never WD. I'll do some short jumps if I think they would help me strike the opponent. I also agree that WDing isn't all that important. It's only really helpful for characters with low traction. L-Canceling is something I find helpful, but some of the other techniques aren't really anything I use.

 

[Nic64]

And I was starting to think that Goat had gotten smarter....

L-cancelling is *very* useful, it cuts the recovery of air attacks in half...air attacks that already recovered quickly become unpunishable and gain huge combo potential. It helps whether you miss or hit the attack, how is that not good? It also helps slow recovering moves like Link's sword plant become safer, where as normally they would be subject to being charge smashed.

Wavedashing is a bit less useful but it can still be good for many characters. It allows you to move and attack easily.

CCing allows you to stop combo's before they begin, CCC, and even allows better survival.

Quick jumping, or short hopping as most know it as...when used in conjunction with L-cancelling can make some crazy strats. It also gives Falco his short hop blaster strat which can be just nasty.

These skills won't help if you do not know how to put them to use, so I guess I can see why you made this topic.

 

[Emacee]

So far I haven't found a practical use for wavedashing but teching is necessary because it reduces lag. And short jumping is VERY necessary for it allows one to perform aerial attacks without leaving the ground too much.

 

[Area365]

Wavedashing is useful both fpr quick retreats, approaches, and surprise attacks.

1. Wavedashing is a ducking approach, which avoids several tilt attacks and even smash attacks on a few characters.

2. Wavedashing back and forth creates no lag time, whereas dashing back and forth (not dash-dancing) creates lag time where your character pivots after a certain distance.

3. Wavedashing into grabs is very useful. Many characters dash grabs come with twice the cooldown time of their normal grabs.

4. Wavedashing enables you to approach and retreat with a smash attack or tilt. Very effective.

5. Finally, as mentioned before, wavedashing for some characters is actually faster than their regular dash.

That's all I can come up with off the top of my head.

 

[Evil Sacrafice]

OUt of every advance technique, wavedashing....i find useless unlees playing with somecharacters and it usually screws you up. L cancelling is a must with many characters and short hopping is a must with some characters (well, i do play with ness and ganondorf)

 

[MrSilver]

Yes, they do help, especially L-cancels and short jumps. And to be one of the best you definitly need them. But what people don't seem to get is that it's not all you need. If you can do all this stuff it doesn't make you good. You also need basic knowledge of the game (mainly what move beats what move and where it sends people), good reflexes and timing, and a good graspe on mind games. You'll find that people that win tournaments usually have at least a large shair of all these things. So if you L-cancel and short jump but still lose to people that don't do these things I suggest you try and improve the other aspects of your game. However, if you've got all these other things down but don't L-cancel and short jump and you come across someone who also has it down as good as you but does L-cancel and short jump you'll probably lose. You basicly need it all to be good. Just look at a tournament like TG 5. The top 4 all had a very rounded out game. And they all L-canceled.

Now wavedashing is different. It's very character and play-style specific. For some people it doesn't fit in while for others it works out great. I still don't really see it as something you definitly need but it does have it's uses.

 

[Yeroc]

I like your analogy for the wavedash. Black smoke. It depends, like most everything, on the situation tho. I've played games as Sheik where I didn't need to use a single WD, save for edgehogging. And there were times where I was having trouble evading attacks and getting my counterattack in at the right time to hit my opponent, and the only way I could manage that was to WD backwards out of range then run back in and attack. So you see, it's all relative, but I think you do have a bit of a point with the black smoke analogy.

The reason I see the WD as such an important move is because of it's fakeout potential, your "black smoke." The movement is not wholly regular, so it's harder on the eye to track, and if you start doing things fast enough you can lose some people entirely. The higher up you go in this game, you have to make more and more out of every advantage you can, or the disadvantages in your position can pull you down for a nasty fall. The ability to cloud over your characters actions and fuzz recognition is an extremely important advantage, and if you find yourself in need of an edge over your opponent, it's also a relatively quick one to obtain as well. Those're my thoughts on wavedashing, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions on the matter.

 

[Jill Valentine]

L-Cancelling, is probably one of the most useful advanced tactics in the game.

Plain and simple. It gives someone an extreme edge over the non-L-Canceller.

It totally shuts down any combos and even some attacks (If you abuse L-Cancelling just right, it can become the most annoying technique in a heated battle)

 

[Fox 2k3]

I think L-Cancel is the most helpfull move specially if you are a link or youg link user, I don't CC a lot but those techniques really helped me out sometimes

 

[Sub_Scorpion7]

Wavedashing-A step into the future.

Sheik, in my opinion, is the character simplest to use at wavedashing.

Nevertheless, we all know by now that L-canceling is very important and useful. As in it helps you execute moves at lighting speeds with little or no lagg time at all.

Wavedashing is very useful. A good combination with wavedashing is the ability to play mind games as Mr.Silver stated.
You can trick your opponents into doing any sort of move you wanted them to do so you are able to retaliate. Changing patterns also keeps your opponent at bay since he cannot make out pattern of your attacks. Running at your oponent and washdaving backwards is pretty useful and wavedashing right after you execute a move is also useful. Make sure not to use wavedashing a lot since your opponent will catch on. Most likely.

 

[Impmacaque]

I like your analogy for the wavedash. Black smoke. It depends, like most everything, on the situation tho. I've played games as Sheik where I didn't need to use a single WD, save for edgehogging. And there were times where I was having trouble evading attacks and getting my counterattack in at the right time to hit my opponent, and the only way I could manage that was to WD backwards out of range then run back in and attack. So you see, it's all relative, but I think you do have a bit of a point with the black smoke analogy.

Well, after reading this, I decided to look back at my original post. I've been thinking, WDing really isn't that useful at all. Seriously, for something that gives such little advantage, and takes such a long time to master, it isn't really worth it. I've watched plenty of pro videos, and the re-occuring fact is that WDing is extremely rare. It does however give the player using it a little extra edge, so I suppose my practice wasn't all for nothing....

 

[Kubuu]

Hmm, as for mysely, I use Link, so the L-Cancel is a godsend for me. Without that one technique, I'd be risking life and limb anytime I used his up or down thrust. Short hopping is also used as much as the L-cancel in my game, since it really cuts down on the time I am in the air (as I like to keep fights on the ground). But to be honest, I really don't wave dash at all. I may use it to back out of situations, or for the occasional wavedash grab, but even then, I don't make it a part of my game really. That's not to say it isn't a worthy technique. I think that with the right character and play style, it does up your skill level.

 

[xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx]

And I was starting to think that Goat had gotten smarter....

hey man, I never said i didn't use any of this stuff (I actually say I do) so I'm not bashing this stuff. I'm just trying to get everyones outlook on it. There is more than one way to "read" a book, if you know what I mean.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

L-cancelling/short hop is a must.. and if you are getting 'beat down' by your buddies even when using advanced techniques.. it means:

1. You haven't practiced them enough
2. You don't use them at the right time
3. You haven't practiced basic fighting enough
4. All of the above

Most of the things on wavedashing has been mention.. but need I remind you that you can wave dash out of a normal jump instead of just staying on the ground... or when you're hit into the air and you're coming down instead of doing the oh_so_predictable attacking while you're coming out of the air you could wave dash left or right and then smash when they try to come at you.. or jump forward, then wavedash backwards when you're coming down.. as it's been said, there's so many different situations where it could be used.. you don't just wavedash while you're friends across the screen and say 'oh what a waste'.. it's not just the techniques that make you better, it's knowing when to use them

 

[xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx]

L-cancelling/short hop is a must.. and if you are getting 'beat down' by your buddies even when using advanced techniques.. it means:

baaah...you guys are completly missing the point...this isn't a question of how good I am, this is a question of what you think. No where in my post did I ever say that I was good with anything, and the fact that 99% of you have not played me, adds that nothing should be judged.

I go by an old saying, "Talk is cheap". So I stray away from running my mouth over the internet.

pfft, if these are the kind of responses I get for asking a question out of the ordinary, than this bored is gonna keep getting the same old "Marth v.s Falco", "Tier list", and "Bowser Bashing" threads. c'mon guys, take the unbeaten path...this isn't a freakin communist bored.

 

[paperboy]

Well, if you're a pro, you can find a use for everything. Everything has been mentioned, but I'm not going into that. Just WDing. It's really more of mind trick thing than offensive. Like DDing. It's really usefull for Marth players though, because it sets them up for a tipper fwd+smash. An example for defensiveness, run towards the opponent, WD backwards, fwd+smash, ownage. But it can also be used for combos too, since most characters have to recover after running. But that's just me. CORY can probably elaborate on it more...

 

[filly555]

I personally don't wavedash during fights. I know how to do it partially but if I was to do it during a match it would distract me from what I'm really trying to do; hit the other guy off the stage.

As for techinques, I find them very helpful. As a Ganon user, CC comes in handy very often because his down tilt has so much range. L-cancelling out of his aerial down is also useful. It gives me a better chance to combo longer. I also tech all the time. It's in my blood.

I know what you're about Goat, though. One of my friend's, known as G~Pryme, doesn't even have the game and dosen't do any of the techniques but still kicks my *** 75% of the time.

 

[OldSkoolMar831]

That's exactly what my friend (a.k.a. Dr. Bone) is like. He doesn't even own the game (well, he will by the end of the week, because he finally got his hands on a cube) and doesn't do ANY advanced techniques (not even tilts. Yes, you heard right folks, NOT EVEN TILTS) but he can still hold his own extremely well and wins his fair share of matches. I'm starting to fear him since he will have the game soon and will be practicing a lot more...

 

[footnbaseball]

wavedashing is the most useless thing i have ever heard of. i heard about wavedashing a little while ago and thought it was interesting, so i tried it, and it was an f-ing waste of time. it takes way to much time to get decent at it, for not nearly enough payoff.

ccing is more useful, but still i dont like that either. I prefer a simple dodge followed by a smash attack rather then getting pushed back to where i have to approach the person again, risking getting hit

l-canceling...thats good. that is necessary

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

you use marth and you don't wavedash? LMAO.. i'd sure as **** like to see you play

 

[footnbaseball]

see this is what im saying! you guys are so caught up in your fancy little move that you think people cant be good without it. Theres more then one way to skin a cat. i prefer marths bigass sword

The uses ive heard people talking about for wavedashing is be fast and fake people out. first, i have no idea how you can fake someone out with that, and being fast isnt always necessary when youve got skill.

 

[Sintenal]

All those techniques are good. Its just you need to know when to use them. Short jumps I think are very useful as well as l-canceling and Wding doesnt hurt to do a little bit. I think it depends on the user wether these techniques are affective or not.

 

[FlowinWater]

Oh, anybody I have played in the Miami tournaments know I wavedash all the time. Its a must for me, I even Wavedash with Falco to do quick dodges to retaliate, it also allows me to do the reflector combo on the ground. I know some people can't find uses for it but when you see it in action is pure gold. I used to think all this strats were "gay" and useless, but now I know how they can be used in battle. I use every aspect of this game to my advantage, you just got to know when, and how to use it effectively.

 

[StudStyle]

I am sorta new to these techniques and stuff and I wanted to know what is CC (I believe its called) and quick-jump.

And if you want my opinion on this, all these fancy moves MAY be useful. I really don't use them much, wavedashing is good but the worse part is pulling it off. I use more dodging and then the side-step I believe its called (where you press L or R in mid air) in mid air. I use these when necessary and they are only good then, most of them time I forget they exist because I focus myself on taking out the opponent, the shield to me is a waste of time and something I can't be bothered with

 

[CORY]

Originally posted by paperboy
CORY can probably elaborate on it more...

wtf? WTF? are you alluding that i use marth? i don't use marth anymore. i haven't used marth for a good three or four months. i SUCK with marth. if you're going by my old fugly *** marth guide, i've stated this fact repeatedly in there.

now, as for cancelling and hopping, those are pretty integral for high level play. if you can't hop, most of the time you're going to be very very open as you decend (even with fast fall) towards your opponent, regardless of who you are. hopping pretty much sets your air moves (and their priority) at ground level and allows you to play a quicker, much more combo-able game.

cancelling is the same. if you can't cancel, you won't be able to combo as well and you're going to get shield grabbed a lot more than if you didn't.

now, i'll agree with wding. you don't need to know wding to be good at all. it is HIGHLY character/player specific. i use it alot because i just like to. it's fun and making doc do a daffy duck impression is just too good. but i do have wd as a part of my game. if i've been playing a rush game on someone for a while, they're going to expect me to run up and attack so they'll either try to hit me out of my dash or otherwise punish me for a dashing/run hopped aerial. you condition them to expect a rush down, make them try to hit you back first, wd back, then run/wd back in on their lag. obviously, this won't work much, but the fact that you've done it once means that you CAN possibly do it again, as well as just flat out rush so your opponent has to think about your possibilities and decide to either counter a possible rush move or wait out your false rush.

and ccing is character specific as well. heavier characters can do it much better (and longer.) and most anyone can cc weak a attacks to counter them as they try to follow them up or during the lag between the second and third hits. you obviously shouldn't be trying to cc smashes above 60 or so, but at 0 percent almost no smash will send you so far that a c-sticked counter smash won't connect. i know i can cc up to about 100 with doc and if i get the chance to, i cc weak hits and feed them dsmash in return, even aerial attacks can be cced and countered. unless your opponent is PERFECT at cancelling they can't completely dodge the cced counter.

so, yeah, there's my say on this...

 

[FlowinWater]

CC is crouch Canceling, where you crouch to not reduced the knockback of an Attack.

 

[StudStyle]

So all I do is hold down and press shield or what?

 

[strawberrylover]

wavedashing is the most useless thing i have ever heard of.

first off, let me say that i don't think that wavedashing is the most important technique in the game, and it is not necessary to use it in order to be good. however, all of the best players i know use wavedashing in addition to all other techniques available to them, in order to be as unpredictable and versatile as possible.

you said that wd is useless... there have already been posts with examples as to why wd'ing is useful. first, i'll start with this statement:

The uses ive heard people talking about for wavedashing is be fast and fake people out. first, i have no idea how you can fake someone out with that, and being fast isnt always necessary when youve got skill.

as for faking someone out: say you have someone who tends to attack you when you dash at them; simply wd back as a feint to get them to attack, then forward smash. another example: someone is shield grabbing your aerials; wd back as you hit the ground, then forward smash as they grab the air. there are other examples, but i admit that at least i dont use wavedashing so much for faking out, but it has more uses than just that. (edit: sorry, i took to long to write this, and CORY must have posted about this already while i was writing.)

as for "being fast isnt always necessary when youve got skill." speed is an advantage, and one i dont think anyone would mind having, even if you do have skill. consider this example: the best samus player i know of is wes from nyc; he placed 5th in singles at the last major tournament, tg5. he wavedashes constantly, rather than rolling, because rolling is simpy too slow. for samus, wd'ing has the undeniable advantage over rolling that it is faster. wes is already a skillful player, and yet he uses wd'ing for that extra bit of speed that would otherwise not be possible with rolling.

there are other ways that wd'ing is useful. i use link, so his wd doesnt go far, but i still use it for edgehogging. this has been mentioned, but i'd like to say it again. wavedashing backwards off a ledge in order to grab it is one of the most useful edgeguarding techniques, especially against characters who cannot hit you off the ledge, such as ganondorf, c. falcon, and sheik. wavedashing backwards is the quickest, most effective way to do this. edgehogging is useful, so how can wd'ing be useless?

probably the best use for wd'ing, though, is for specific characters. luigi can dodge, charge a forward smash, charge an up-smash, shield, and grab out of his wd. sure, he can grab, but he cannot do any of those other things while running. other characters with long wavedashes can do those things, albeit not as well as luigi.

i agree with you that wd'ing is difficult to learn, and the amount of time you put into it may not payoff as much as you would want, especially if you dont use a character with a good wd. the usefullness of wavedashing does depend a lot on who you use. however, look at these examples... if wavedashing can be used for all these things, how can it be useless?

edit: as for cc'ing, i think thats even better than wd. another example: youre facing fox, and youre playing as link. he keeps on dash attacking you, and you shield but he crosses over everytime and ends up behind you. you cant shield grab him, but if you ccc (crouch cancel c-stick), you'll hit him with the second hit of your downsmash, popping him up in the air for a possible combo.

to cc, just crouch. when you take the hit, you hopefully wont go too far, and you'll recover right away. if you have a good downsmash, try pressing c-stick down (you'll still be crouching). your opponent will probably be lagging from their last attack, so the smash'll hit em.

 

[footnbaseball]

ah right ah right...

im just gonna say this:

admittadly, i have never actually seen a skilled player who wavedashes do his thang, so there may be more to it then i know.

So i am going to take back what i said about the wavedashing being useless, it is not necessarly true, and im going to go ahead and repeat what CORY said, its all character/player specific, and i dont do dat

i was just trying to stir things up cause of all these guys who are posting who freakin look at pictures of people wavedashing late at night. Theres more then one way too be good, and some people need to realize that

i think wavedashing is just flashy and unecessary, ccing too, but thats just my humble opinion

 

[Badboy Bighead]

They're all just tactics, and they're all based off opinion. They can help you out, but aren't necessary. If you're the button masher kinda person, then you probably won't need to do that kinda stuff, but if you're involved with precision and timing and all that fancy stuff, teching and L-cancelling should help you out.

I've never actually put the wavedash into good use, so I don't really recommend it.

Dunno bout short hop, doesn't matter much to me, and It doesn't really pop into my head to short hop, unless it's homerun contest. Play SSBM following your instincts, and playing the tactics you know how to.

 

[x_3_9]

I'll just say that short-hopping and CCing are essential to nearly every character's game. Short-hopping into an aerial move while flying forward is like having another set of ground moves for your char, and CCing while giant or at low percentages is just plain stupid not to do (correctly, that is).

 

[Kyari]

*EDIT* check a few below this one for the actual message.

 

[FlowinWater]

OMG, I need to play you to show you the uses of these techniques.

 

[xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx]

ok, "Ruler" of Melee, I don't need advice on how to do this crap. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL! Did you even read my post? or did you just read the title, then jump down and blab your mouth? in-fuking-credible...not once did I ask for help or a reason why I (as in ME) should do them. all I asked was if you REALLY need these to be good. and, by the looks of idiots like you posting responses, that arn't even asked for, I'm not going to get anywhere.

and wtf is up with you italics anyways? its not cool, and you're not unique for it.