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King Dedede General Moveset Discussion

meleebrawler

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It's better in Brawl because it's faster when not fully charged and gets decent results
even completely uncharged. They also came out and ended way faster.
All Smash 4 Jet Hammer has over Brawl's is range, which is ruined by weakness and slowness,
and fully charged recovers quicker than in Brawl but it's still hideously punishable.

Edit: I can think of maybe ONE situation where the armoured jet could be useful.
Your opponent is hanging from the ledge and you've got a gordo bouncing there,
and you know that he likes to get up from the ledge with an attack (say, Villager).
The gordo gives you time to charge and the armour restricts them from attacking as
a get-up.
 
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El_Bardo

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in my opinion Jet-Hammer is a gimmick worth trying at least once or twice against the same player. if you read the player's reaction you get a free stock. My favorite ones are the people who tend to roll behind you thinking they are safe.. NOPE, you turn around faster and punish that roll . Another good one is leaving a bouncing gordo then charging jet-hammer, that leaves the oponent with few options left, if you think he will be the aggro-type which recover attacking, you can just jump while charging then punish that attack, if he stays in the ledge, the Jet-hammer hit the ledge ( or the Gordo if timed correctly ). You may think that these kind of cheap tactics won't work against good players, you would be surprised.
 

Bowserdude

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in my opinion Jet-Hammer is a gimmick worth trying at least once or twice against the same player. if you read the player's reaction you get a free stock. My favorite ones are the people who tend to roll behind you thinking they are safe.. NOPE, you turn around faster and punish that roll . Another good one is leaving a bouncing gordo then charging jet-hammer, that leaves the oponent with few options left, if you think he will be the aggro-type which recover attacking, you can just jump while charging then punish that attack, if he stays in the ledge, the Jet-hammer hit the ledge ( or the Gordo if timed correctly ). You may think that these kind of cheap tactics won't work against good players, you would be surprised.
THANK you. Finally, someone else sees its potential!
 

KeithTheGeek

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Random question on Dedede's ftilt- it has transcendent priority in this game, correct? That stops it from being able to stuff out projectiles and other such nuisances that, if I recall, he was able to in Brawl (or at least in PM). However, it also means his hammer won't clank with other attacks and allows him to poke at grounded opponents that he out-ranges without fear of his attack getting clanked out.

I'm just wondering which version of ftilt you guys tend to prefer, as they both have their uses. I'm leaning towards the current version since it's such a fantastic spacing tool, but I also see the benefits of the Brawl/PM ftilt, having mained Dedede in those games as well. This isn't for anything in particular, just something interesting I think we could discuss when transitioning between games.
 

Smooth Criminal

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in my opinion Jet-Hammer is a gimmick worth trying at least once or twice against the same player. if you read the player's reaction you get a free stock. My favorite ones are the people who tend to roll behind you thinking they are safe.. NOPE, you turn around faster and punish that roll . Another good one is leaving a bouncing gordo then charging jet-hammer, that leaves the oponent with few options left, if you think he will be the aggro-type which recover attacking, you can just jump while charging then punish that attack, if he stays in the ledge, the Jet-hammer hit the ledge ( or the Gordo if timed correctly ). You may think that these kind of cheap tactics won't work against good players, you would be surprised.
THANK you. Finally, someone else sees its potential!

No. Have fun getting the Gordo bounced back at you, or dealing with opponents that actually space their attacks with regular movement instead of rolling in those situations.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Flawed

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The only use I've had with down b is to edge guard a monkey-flip happy Diddy I didnt get it fully charge but it was about halfway there. didnt kill, but it got me in position to set up bair
Ive used it on FG a few times to land, since the smart thing to do would be to reset to ledge, i just hold it down and land... and people hold shield lol
 

MioTinto

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I've noticed D3's dash hits most characters hanging from ledges. Figured you'd like to know, as it might be useful for edgeguarding.
 

Soul Train

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I've noticed D3's dash hits most characters hanging from ledges. Figured you'd like to know, as it might be useful for edgeguarding.
Yes. Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Jab, charged DownB, and dash attack can all hit ledgegrabbers. However this is entirely character dependent - while hanging from the ledge, each character has a larger/smaller hurtbox. For example, Diddy has almost no hitbox, but Charizard's whole head pokes above the ledge and can be hit by most Fsmashes.

Personally I go for ledge trump -> Bair instead. Much safer and quicker than a dash attack.
 

Perris6

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I am getting a lot of jet hammers off by setting up an up tilted gordo and reading a shield or roll. If you space it appropriately you will land it
 

A Rogue Cop

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Do you guys know how strong the super armor on that custom Jet Hammer is? I had an idea of how you might be able to bait an unknowledgeable Jigglypuff into resting you, only for you to absorb the hit and get a free KO off of it.
 
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meleebrawler

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Do you guys know how strong the super armor on that custom Jet Hammer is? I had an idea of how you might be able to bait an unknowledgeable Jigglypuff into resting you, only for you to absorb the hit and get a free KO off of it.
As far as I know, it is completely unbreachable (except by grabs of course), however I have heard that if you
start the move in the air you get no armour until you land (but after that you can jump with it and keep the armour).

It doesn't have ridiculous power like default does, but it can still do the job at higher percents, especially
with rage.
 

A Rogue Cop

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Alright, thanks for the response. I'll keep those tips in mind, especially the one about not gaining armor till you're on the ground; I'll make sure to not try and use it to descend safely.
 
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Pazzo.

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As an approaching tool, what moves should I use? I come from the Robin school of Smash 4 attacks, so I'm well acquainted with tricky timing.
 

MioTinto

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As an approaching tool, what moves should I use? I come from the Robin school of Smash 4 attacks, so I'm well acquainted with tricky timing.
Fastfall nair does wonders for approaching. You can also throw in an u-tilted Gordo, then rush in on your opponent and do as you please.
 

toadster101

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As an approaching tool, what moves should I use? I come from the Robin school of Smash 4 attacks, so I'm well acquainted with tricky timing.
Neutral air, forward air, and dash grab. Though preferably you should wait until they approach you first.

Fastfall nair does wonders for approaching. You can also throw in an u-tilted Gordo, then rush in on your opponent and do as you please.
This too, but you can't rely on it too often.
 

Cook

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Anyone here use reverse inhale like a pivot grab? I did it a couple times on accident trying to gordo throw a while back and now I find myself doing it quite a bit. Way more range than pivot grab and seems pretty safe if they don't have a projectile because either they did chase you and came into range of inhale or they didn't chase so they're too far away to punish a lot of times.

Am I crazy?
 

Soul Train

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Anyone here use reverse inhale like a pivot grab? I did it a couple times on accident trying to gordo throw a while back and now I find myself doing it quite a bit. Way more range than pivot grab and seems pretty safe if they don't have a projectile because either they did chase you and came into range of inhale or they didn't chase so they're too far away to punish a lot of times.

Am I crazy?
Not at all. It's a fantastic D3 mixup option, one that's severely underused. It beats shield and spotdodges, is hard to punish when spaced right, and can even accidentally pull the opponent over you and disorient them. Yep.
 

Protagonist Heavy

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I actually think Jet Hammer is not nearly as useless as many people make it out to be. Against both poor and solid players, I've found the Jet Hammer to be really good in primarily edge guarding situations. I'd reckon it's one of my more solid ways of getting a kill, even, and I wouldn't call myself shabby at Dedede.

In my experience, it's all about the set-up. Obviously, it's not a great move to use in just regular combination. At low percentages, you're just not gonna get careless reactions from people that would slip them up against a Jet Hammer, and the knockock/damage isn't worth it in comparison to Dedede's other standard attacks. However, when you've limited enemy options, it can be a solid kill from anywhere in the stage. The ability to walk, turn, and jump with the darn thing is it's major highlight, and you gotta know how to use that.

The typical set-up is getting them off the edge (not very hard), using an up-tilted Gordo, and preparing the Jet Hammer. Now, all of this is obviously based on the enemy character, but you've really narrowed down their options. Trying to hit the gordo away without a projectile is usually a bad trade, since you only have a handful of air attacks to use in that situation. Waiting for the gordo to roll off risks getting hit by it when the invincibility frames wear off, and that can result in a quick death. What you've mostly got left are options not very favorable - standing back up from the ledge allows Dedede to just walk forward and kill; rolling back simply requires Dedede to turn around and, again, kill; jumping is a bit safer, but if you catch it soon enough, you can also jump and chase, getting the kill mid-air; or, if unaware of Jet Hammer's reach, you simply hold on to the ledge and stall, where Dedede will happily finish the encounter.

Overall, it provides a situation that the enemy doesn't want to be in, and forces them to act immediately - the longer they wait to make a decision, the more power that Jet Hammer will have, and Dedede usually has little to risk. Add in the shield breaking factor of this move, and it's even more nerve racking for the enemy to deal with.

I think most people dismiss Jet Hammer simply because it doesn't have a huge versatile use, but in its places where it excels, it excels big time and can decide games. Just like Gordos, you just have to get out of the habit of abusing the attack.

And of course the other big use is against people abusing recovery specials, especially teleports like Palutena and Zelda, where you can easily predict where they're gonna be in a particular area, and waddle right up to them for a powerful hit. All in all, you shouldn't write this move off so quickly.
 

dean.

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People might know that we have access to some frame data here. I did a bit of testing for some of our specials as well.
Inhale seems to be frame 17. (Taste Test is frame 14).
Gordo Throw spawns a gordo on frame 6. The gordo doesn't have a hitbox until something hits it, and Dedede hits it on frame 28.
Jet Hammer no charge hits on frame 27. Partial charge releases on frame 10. Full charge releases on frame 9.
 

Lavani

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Speaking of frame data, might be a good time to mention that this was linked elsewhere. Unsure of the accuracy but it has things like end lag, IASA, total frames, etc. as well.
 

TMJ_Jack

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Is there a trick to consistently stick Gordo to the edges FD or Ω stages? Also could someone tell me how to do a B-reversal with Inhale? I never learned how to do B-reversals...
 
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Soul Train

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Is there a trick to consistently stick Gordo to the edges FD or Ω stages? Also could someone tell me how to do a B-reversal with Inhale? I never learned how to do B-reversals...
Yep, did a whole video on it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DIU5mCt4j0. It's situational, but definitely a usable tool in D3's edgeguarding arsenal.

B-reversals are a little tight on timing, but very doable. Just hit B...then immediately tap the other direction opposite what you're facing. If you do Side B instead, you tapped the other direction too soon, if you do Neutral B, you tapped it too late. Take five minutes in Training, you'll get it. The fun part: B-reversals also reverse your momentum. So if you're floating away with D3, quickly do a B-reversal Inhale and bam, unexpected offense.
 
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shrooby

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Oh my god reverse Inhale is so fun.

Yeah, I actually think Inhale is really good. It would be so much better if the ending lag was a bit less, but still having a command grab makes it so you can actually mix up landings kinda.
 

Cook

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In addition to the b reversal, you can also reverse your inhale by very lightly holding back when you hit b. This method doesn't change your momentum, so sometimes it is the better option.
 

Jdawg26

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Also keep in mind that shorter characters can run under you while you're trying to land with inhale. It's really annoying...

Plus I've been grabbed out of it several times when I'm playing against Ness. Don't suppose anyone has any thoughts as to why that may happen? The windbox was out and everything.
 

TMJ_Jack

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Okay, so I watched all of @ Soul Train Soul Train 's videos: real great stuff. I'm impressed that you got all this figured out on 3DS. I can do the Gordo Stick now, but getting it to apply in the middle of battle is a whole new challenge. Would you consider the Jumpoff or the Ledgegrab method more practical?
 
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