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Killing heavy characters with Metaknight

Mars-

Smash Champion
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Jun 15, 2006
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I've been working on my metaknight, having fun with the character and after playing a decent Metaknight online and studying how he played I have solved one of my problems which was racking up damage. However one of the current problems I am having is killing heavier characters, I find lighter characters die at maybe 80-100% with shuttle loop and other moves but heavy characters live long after this and at those percents I don't know any combos into shuttle loop, and it seems if I go for a heymaker attack I end up either not killing or I get punished hard and die myself. Even when I pop them up it seems they have so many moves that out prioritize shuttle loop or simply air dodge below me.

So my question for all you metaknight players is how do you set up for kills on characters, particularly heavy characters like DDD, Bowser, DK, ect.

Also we could discuss killing setups in general, but I'm more interested in heavy characters.
 

busken

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Nov 28, 2014
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Most heavy characters have bad or exploitable recovery options so you should definitely capitalize on that. Since their hurtboxes are so big, getting a combo should be quite easy. You should combo until you get them near the ledge or off-stage. From their, you can pressure their ledge recovery options or start to edge guard. From my experience, meta knight destroys most heavies in the game, the exception being wario and dedede.
 

Mars-

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Thanks for the reply, but do you think you could be more specific, like move options, like if ddd up b's onto the stage X will punish. saying combo more and exploit recoveries is really vague. Perhaps you have some video references?
 
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busken

Smash Ace
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Nov 28, 2014
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677
You asked a vague question, I gave a vague answer. King DeDeDe Up special on stage is punish like any other punish. Shield, and punish respectively. You should always convert your advantage into an edge guard situation, regardless of the character. Move options for DeDeDe say the same for most heavy weights as their hurtboxes and fall speeds are similar. If somebody does something unsafe just punish normally fsmash, grab, etc. If you want to know more about the Matchup vote in the general discussion thread.
 

Mars-

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I asked for killing options and kiling setups vs heavy characters. That is very specific, in fact, I specifically listed three characters as well. You saying combo more and convert edgeguards is essentially like saying "don't get hit."

I politely asked you to be more specific, I even asked if perhaps you had a video of these things so I could study it, and instead you get defensive when your nonconstructive feedback is questioned. If you can't do that then maybe you should just not reply.
 
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busken

Smash Ace
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Nov 28, 2014
Messages
677
I asked for killing options and kiling setups vs heavy characters. That is very specific, in fact, I specifically listed three characters as well. You saying combo more and convert edgeguards is essentially like saying "don't get hit."

I politely asked you to be more specific, I even asked if perhaps you had a video of these things so I could study it, and instead you get defensive when your nonconstructive feedback is questioned. If you can't do that then maybe you should just not reply.
Sorry, didn't mean to come off as such :/ maybe others users can help? Im just trying to help.
 

Katakiri

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As for KO setups, I dumped a big list of the ones I use:
That actually reminds me that I created a little cheat sheet for MK's combos a while back but never posted it. Granted, most are not true combos due to DI but they works for most of the cast if you add or subtract percent based on character weight (Sheik was the test dummy here):

0% Combos:
D-Throw > SH N-Air 17%
D-Throw > Dash Attack > Up-Smash 17-22% (Character specific)
D-Throw > Mach Tornado (Character specific)
Dash Attack > Up-Smash 15%
Dash Attack > SH Nado? 26% (Character specific)

0% to 90+% (AKA Bread & Butter AKA MK's Diddy Kong D-Throw>Up-Air)
F-Throw > Aerial Shuttle Loop 21% (KOs at later %s)
*F-Throw comes out on frame 4 after a grab so, unlike D-Throw, DIing the throw is very unlikely!*
**F-Throw while it has less knockback (good for combos) and more damage, it has less hitstun than D-Throw. So make those inputs quick**


35~% (KO Percent)
F-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 36%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 34%
F-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Air Dodge > Mach Tornado 44+%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Wait > Air Dodge > Mach Tornado 42+%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 32%

40~%
F-Throw > SH Mach Tornado 28~%

50~%
SH D-Air > Mach Tornado 26~%

84~% (KO Percent)
Dash Attack > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)

90~% (KO Percent)
F-Throw > Incorrect/No DI > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > Incorrect/No DI > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)

101% to 130% (KO Percent)
D-Tilt > Missed Tech > Dimensional Cape Slash (KO Combo)
D-Tilt > Grounded Up-B (KO Combo)
D-Tilt > Tech-in-place > Mach Tornado

Single Move KO% (Off-top, no Rage required):
Grounded Shuttle Loop KO Percent: 98%
Forward Dimensional Cape Slash KO Percent: 107%
Up-Smash: 108%
Up-Throw KO Percent: 156%

Red = A likely opponent input
Obviously anything with red isn't a real combo but I listed them because, unless the opponent is experienced with MK, they're very likely to make the input or lack-thereof required to make the combo happen.

I'll go more in-depth on all of those combos in a guide I'm writing soon.
Again, add percent to those combos based on weight (try them in training mode) and they work on most of the cast. You do have to keep rage in mind tho as some combos stop working with high rage but some also KO earlier.

As for just dealing with heavy characters and heavy-hitters overall, I bait attacks by playing aggressively and punish with F-Smash for a KO. I'm always just out of reach but applying enough pressure that big characters can't quite get their footing properly. And like Busken said, Bowser, D3, Ganon, and Bowser Jr. have exploitable recoveries and can be N-Air'd or F-Air'd out of their Up-B's pretty easily. The worst they could do is bat you back on-stage unless they recover low in which case they could stage spike you. Donkey Kong is a bit nastier since he can spike you with F-Air if he's coming from above but if he's forced to Up-B it's safe to chase after him. Mega Man's difficult but possible to gimp with a well-place N-Air but if you miss and he grabs the ledge, always use Dimensional Cape's intangibility to get back to ledge to avoid the Hard Knuckle punish.

I tend to get KOs from F-Smash and comboes off of throws or dash attack more than off-stage gimping them though. It's also good to remember that F-Smash has only 8 frames of ending lag so you can throw it out to bait reactions and punish accordingly.

I quickly threw together a video for you from a random FG replay that shows off spacing and punishing against Bowser. It's not the best but it's the only replay I have of a heavy character atm.
 

busken

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Wow, you uploaded a video just for a user in the community. It really shows your care and commitment. Thank you Katakiri it's great we have somebody like you with the tools and kindness to grow this forum.
 

TheLippyLapras

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I've been working on my metaknight, having fun with the character and after playing a decent Metaknight online and studying how he played I have solved one of my problems which was racking up damage. However one of the current problems I am having is killing heavier characters, I find lighter characters die at maybe 80-100% with shuttle loop and other moves but heavy characters live long after this and at those percents I don't know any combos into shuttle loop, and it seems if I go for a heymaker attack I end up either not killing or I get punished hard and die myself. Even when I pop them up it seems they have so many moves that out prioritize shuttle loop or simply air dodge below me.

So my question for all you metaknight players is how do you set up for kills on characters, particularly heavy characters like DDD, Bowser, DK, ect.

Also we could discuss killing setups in general, but I'm more interested in heavy characters.

Meta Knight has two true combos that end in a shuttle loop.

D-throw -> Shuttle Loop

Dash Attack -> Shuttle Loop.

Killed Charizard weight characters at 90% no rage.
 

srn347

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
108
I find that as early as 80% MK is capable of getting the opponent into the upper half of the screen with an up throw to setup for an up B kill. Not only does it work against heavies, but it's actually easier against them because of their large hurtboxes. Wall of pain also works quite well, as evidenced in the above video.
 

Ulevo

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The match ups versus heavies just last longer. Essentially you play the match ups much in the way Sheik would where you try to dominate the neutral game and get persistent damage off until they're at such a high % it does not matter. Heavies are also very susceptible to Mach Tornado, which makes this even easier.
 

Dream Cancel

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My favorite method of killing heavies is the Dimensional Cape. (Down B) The best example I like to use is against Bowser's Down B and King Dedede's recovery. Simply initiate Dimensional Cape before they hit you (if you're standing under them) and they'll miss their attack, then you'll come out of the abyss and banish them to the shadow realm.

There are plenty of style points with this move too, if you're interested.
 

Kyzael

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So what would be the best approach for MK and stacking damage? As from the above video, using D-throw is helpful. Though landing a Mach tornado isn't as always as easy for me as I have to hope I don't use the Drill rush.

I have a lot of problems with Shuttle Loop as most cases I will miss it or it'll hit and won't kill. Even at 110%. This problem occured the most against my friend's Captain Falcon. (I was losing 60 - 70% of the matches, so at that point I was getting really salty but kept quiet.)

I liked MK but there are problems with his techniques that i've yet to master.
 
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