Just how much have we twisted Sakurai's original words?

[PrettyGoodYear]

Also, since you brought up Tom Nook - I guess you forgot about the fact that Falco is technically both a playable character AND a background character in Melee. Three words: Fox's secret taunt.

You can't compare a silly easter egg, meant to not be discovered easily, to standing in the crowd during the entire match, in all kinds of different outfits.

 

[EPX2]

You can't compare a silly easter egg, meant to not be discovered easily, to standing in the crowd during the entire match, in all kinds of different outfits.

I most certainly can. The fact that it's an easter egg is irrelevant - Falco still appears as both a playable and non-playable character. Simply put, Tom Nook being a background character, in no way, affects his chances. Do I necessarily want him in the game? No. Do I think he'll be playable? No, not at all. But I recognize that he still has a chance.

 

[Shuma]

This is silly and stupid, why would Sakurai add lucas if ness is still in the game? and Sakurai said so himself that he whanted to replace ness with Lucas.

 

[vesperview]

Another thread poisoned by the denial of the Ness fanboys, just wait til the 15th to not see Ness in the roster, kthxbai!

 

[EPX2]

This is silly and stupid, why would Sakurai add lucas if ness is still in the game? and Sakurai said so himself that he whanted to replace ness with Lucas.

That's one of the stupidest questions I've ever seen asked on this board. You might as well be asking why is Sakurai adding ANY newcomer to a series that has already been represented by another character in previous installments.

Secondly, he said he wanted to replace Ness in Melee. In Melee. Not in Brawl. In Melee. Regardless, that's nice and all, but we're straying away from the original issue, which is why it's idiotic to look at the "Up until now" quote as proof of Ness not appearing. I don't care to discuss whether or not Ness will return, so please stop asking me questions related to that issue.

Another thread poisoned by the denial of the Ness fanboys, just wait til the 15th to not see Ness in the roster, kthxbai!

Denial? It's denial to prove that "Up until now" means absolutely nothing and it's ridiculous to use that as proof that Ness will not return? No - that's called being logical.

 

[Corax The Cold]

Lucas can't get Ness' old moveset, since he's already been shown to have one of his very own. Ness would return with his own moveset. But that's missing the point.

All those updates were about change, but the 'until now' part of all those updates was just used to mention that the subject appeared in past smash bros games. It made sense to mention them that way because, well, things had changed. It's hard to describe change if you don't at least mention the way things were before, so it makes sense that Sakurai would use the phrase 'until now'.
So why would Sakurai use that phrase to refer to Ness? It's possible that he meant Ness was cut. But it's also possible that he wanted to refer to Ness' past appearances ONLY, which makes sense if you consider Ness as a character who has yet to be confirmed.

well only one of Lucas' moves is different from Ness's and thats because Ness's neutral b move sucked in SSBM

 

[Shuma]

"No - that's called being logical."

You're not doing a good work then.

 

[EPX2]

"No - that's called being logical."

You're not doing a good work then.

Great rebuttal. I especially like the part where you've not been able to counter any of the points I made regarding that quote and keep trying to shift the discussion into a "Will Ness return?" debate to try and draw attention away from the fact that you've done a horrible job arguing here. Since you've obviously run out of anything worthwhile to say, you can stop participating in this discussion. Pleasure talking to ya. :D

 

[vesperview]

keep trying to shift the discussion into a "Will Ness return?"

Isn't that what this whole argument is all about?

 

[Shuma]

" Since you've obviously run out of anything worthwhile to say, you can stop participating in this discussion."

No, you're in denial and will never accept that Ness is gone. You, like all the ness fans out there are in Denial.

Also:

"That's one of the stupidest questions I've ever seen asked on this board. You might as well be asking why is Sakurai adding ANY newcomer to a series that has already been represented by another character in previous installments."

Yeah, the only diference is that Ness and Lucas have the exact same moves, And Sakurai said there were going to be no clones this time, and it would be comletly ilogical to give ness a new moveset instead of giving the new one to Lucas. Thus Ness is gone, capich?

 

[EPX2]

" Since you've obviously run out of anything worthwhile to say, you can stop participating in this discussion."

No, you're in denial and will never accept that Ness is gone. You, like all the ness fans out there are in Denial.

Can you read? If so, re-read my posts and you'll see that I was never arguing that Ness was in the game, I was focusing SOLELY on a quote. At least know what you're talking about before jumping into an argument, thanks.

Also:

"That's one of the stupidest questions I've ever seen asked on this board. You might as well be asking why is Sakurai adding ANY newcomer to a series that has already been represented by another character in previous installments."

Yeah, the only diference is that Ness and Lucas have the exact same moves, And Sakurai said there were going to be no clones this time, and it would be comletly ilogical to give ness a new moveset instead of giving the new one to Lucas. Thus Ness is gone, capich?

First of all, Lucas shares three special moves with Ness. That's it. His normal moveset and his standard B are all different. First mistake.

Secondly, Sakurai never said there were not going to be any clones. Did he address the issue of clones? Yes. But he never once said that clones wouldn't be in Brawl. As a GameFAQs user recently put it, that's just "people playing telephone" (i.e. people passing off a rumor as fact).

Thirdly, would it not be just as illogical to make a mostly new moveset for Lucas when Sakurai could've easily just given him the exact same moves as Ness? After all, he's supposedly Ness' replacement, right? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone if Lucas were just Ness with a new appearance? Ness fans still get their character (in essence), and Sakurai finally gets to add a character that he always wanted in the series.

Regardless, that's not at all relevant to the topic at hand. Once again, I'm not arguing if Ness is returning, so please refrain from asking me about this. Your question was simply, "Why would he add Lucas if Ness is already in the game?", which is a stupid question. Do they share similar abilties in the Mother franchise? Yes. Do they necessarily need to have the exact same moves in the SSB franchise? Not at all - and we've already seen that isn't the case.

It's just as silly a question as asking, "Why would he add King Dedede if we already have Meta Knight?" Answer: Because he wants to. They're two different characters who have the potential to have pretty different movesets. Use some common sense.

Isn't that what this whole argument is all about?

No, the issue was originally about the Sakurai quote. I never mentioned anything regarding whether or not Ness would return, I simply said that quote doesn't confirm anything.

 

[Shuma]

Ok... you're arguing about a quote?

Fine.

There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar. They are from the same family of PK users.

But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves.

That's the whole update, it still means Ness is out.

Regardless, that's not at all relevant to the topic at hand. Once again, I'm not arguing if Ness is returning, so please refrain from asking me about this. Your question was simply, "Why would he add Lucas if Ness is already in the game?", which is a stupid question.

It was rethorical question.

It's just as silly a question as asking, "Why would he add King Dedede if we already have Meta Knight?" Answer: Because he wants to. They're two different characters who have the potential to have pretty different movesets. Use some common sense.

This argument is incredibly stupid, Dedede and MEtaknight have nothing in common, while Ness and Lucas are bassically the same ****ing character.

Secondly, Sakurai never said there were not going to be any clones. Did he address the issue of clones? Yes. But he never once said that clones wouldn't be in Brawl.

Actually, he did, in his blog before the Dojo was put up, he said that he didn't whant to make the same "mistake" again.

 

[EPX2]

Ok... you're arguing about a quote?

Fine.

That's the whole update, it still means Ness is out.

That's nice, but I don't care. I don't see why you're so intent on proving to me that Ness is out, since that's not an issue I've expressed any interest in whatsoever in this topic. If you feel that the update means Ness is out, that's fine - that doesn't change the fact that "Up until now" doesn't, however.

It was rethorical question.

How does that make it any less of a stupid question?

This argument is incredibly stupid, Dedede and MEtaknight have nothing in common, while Ness and Lucas are bassically the same ****ing character.

Except they're not. Two completely different people from two completely different games from the same series. They share some of the same moves and look alike. Looking alike and having the same moves =/= being the same character. As I've said, there's enough material to draw on from their games to give each of them somewhat unique (at the very least) movesets. But that's an issue for another topic.

Actually, he did, in his blog before the Dojo was put up, he said that he didn't whant to make the same "mistake" again.

Re-read the original post of this topic.

 

[Shuma]

That's not where he originaly said about the clones.

"Actually, he did, in his blog before the Dojo was put up"

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok... you're arguing about a quote?

Fine.



That's the whole update, it still means Ness is out.

Obviously, you didn't read or don't care what the rest of the thread said. The entire point is that that there is a significant linguistic difference between the Japanese update and the English one. This was highlighted by the handicap system that in the English update was "deconfirmed" by the same wording as Ness, returned.

Then people looked at the Japanese update and realize, "the word used here that was translated as "until" has no connotations of ending in Japanese, it's just a statement that it was the way things have been occurring". Of course, this same Japanese wording was used for the Handicap system when it was "deconfirmed".

Bottom line: Ness's "deconfirmation" is actually a translation issue, not a mistake mind you, English lacks an equivalent to the wording used in Japanese, and "until" is the closest that we have.


If it were that simple, why the heck would be arguing about it? Obviously something came up that pointed out it wasn't that simple.

Which doesn't mean he'll be in of course, it just means he's not deconfirmed.

Actually, he did, in his blog before the Dojo was put up, he said that he didn't whant to make the same "mistake" again.

His blog is also at issue here, people were checking the translation, and it didn't equal a deconfirmation of clones (either the characters that were clones, or a character being a clone in general). He never actually said that.

In conclusion, READ THE THREAD!

Isn't that what this whole argument is all about?

No, the possibility of Ness returning is an implication, but his status is not being argued about. Whether there is substantiative translation issues are what's being argued about.

 

[HollabackRyu]

I love how you argue about a quote idiots

 

[DeuceBlade]

I remember when people thought there was only going to be 1 smash ball per round. I guess until they saw proof that it wasn't that way it was truly unknown.

Sorta like with Ness... hmm..

 

[Big-Cat]

I remember when people thought there was only going to be 1 smash ball per round. I guess until they saw proof that it wasn't that way it was truly unknown.

Sorta like with Ness... hmm..

I doubt it.

 

[EPX2]

I love how you argue about a quote idiots

I love how you can't contribute anything constructive to this topic. What I love even more so about that post is that you exhibit a lack of basic grammar skills while having the audacity to insult US as "idiots." It's like.... delicious ironing. You can crawl back under whatever rock you came from, now.

 

[EPX2]

whoamg, double post

 

[EPX2]

whoamg, triple post

(We really need a delete post feature...)

 

[Koji Syntax]

Hey guys. Stop arguing about something that at this point is impossible to prove. Has Ness been confirmed? no. Has Ness been SPECIFICALLY deconfirmed (and I'm not talking about your 'up until now' crap, I'm talking about 'Ness will not be returning'). So cut the crap and shut up.

P.S. - This thread turned into what it was originally supposed to be against. Thank you. Good day.

 

[Big-Cat]

P.S. - This thread turned into what it was originally supposed to be against. Thank you. Good day.

How ironic, indeed. Can anyone show me where Sakurai expressed an interest in more villains?

 

[Black/Light]

I remember when people thought there was only going to be 1 smash ball per round. I guess until they saw proof that it wasn't that way it was truly unknown.

Sorta like with Ness... hmm..

Nope, heres what it said. . .

"The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once…and only after obtaining an item called the Smash Ball, which is a precious item, indeed."

You can only do your FS once after getting the Smash Ball. . . .no where did it say theres only one Smash ball per round.

And will the Ness fan boys get over it!? He is gone like the wind. . . you can main Lucas now if you want. Theres a thread to talk about Ness so I would hope you all would take it over there so that we can get back to topic.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Nope, heres what it said. . .

"The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once…and only after obtaining an item called the Smash Ball, which is a precious item, indeed."

You can only do your FS once after getting the Smash Ball. . . .no where did it say theres only one Smash ball per round.

And will the Ness fan boys get over it!? He is gone like the wind. . . you can main Lucas now if you want. Theres a thread to talk about Ness so I would hope you all would take it over there so that we can get back to topic.

I never said thats what it was.. I said thats what people thought..

Ness is gone? really.. I had no idea you were Sakurai.. cause only Sakurai could make that decision.. and theres no evidence that says hes absolutely gone.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

First of all, Lucas shares three special moves with Ness. That's it. His normal moveset and his standard B are all different. First mistake.

PK Freeze is essentially PK Flash with freezing effects.

Regardless, that's not at all relevant to the topic at hand. Once again, I'm not arguing if Ness is returning, so please refrain from asking me about this. Your question was simply, "Why would he add Lucas if Ness is already in the game?", which is a stupid question. Do they share similar abilties in the Mother franchise? Yes. Do they necessarily need to have the exact same moves in the SSB franchise? Not at all - and we've already seen that isn't the case.

They do share similar abilities in the Mother franchise, but they also have many different ones.

It's just as silly a question as asking, "Why would he add King Dedede if we already have Meta Knight?" Answer: Because he wants to. They're two different characters who have the potential to have pretty different movesets. Use some common sense.

MetaKnight and Dedede are different characters with different roles. Lucas and Ness are 2 different characters with the same role.

Except they're not. Two completely different people from two completely different games from the same series. They share some of the same moves and look alike. Looking alike and having the same moves =/= being the same character. As I've said, there's enough material to draw on from their games to give each of them somewhat unique (at the very least) movesets. But that's an issue for another topic.

They still fill the same role, even if they're different characters.

Obviously, you didn't read or don't care what the rest of the thread said. The entire point is that that there is a significant linguistic difference between the Japanese update and the English one. This was highlighted by the handicap system that in the English update was "deconfirmed" by the same wording as Ness, returned.

First of all, the handicap update deconfirmed the old handicap system and introduced a new one. Second of all, Lucas SMs: In English, it had un until now. In Japanese it had Ima(now) and Made (until).

Then people looked at the Japanese update and realize, "the word used here that was translated as "until" has no connotations of ending in Japanese, it's just a statement that it was the way things have been occurring". Of course, this same Japanese wording was used for the Handicap system when it was "deconfirmed".

Literally, it translates to up until now. And yes, the old handicap system is deconfirmed. We have a new one, yay. And made = until.

Bottom line: Ness's "deconfirmation" is actually a translation issue, not a mistake mind you, English lacks an equivalent to the wording used in Japanese, and "until" is the closest that we have.

Even then, it's pretty darn close.

I remember when people thought there was only going to be 1 smash ball per round. I guess until they saw proof that it wasn't that way it was truly unknown.

Sorta like with Ness... hmm..

I always thought people were stupid for thinking that. It wasn't very clear, but you could figure it out. And the japanese update for that was clearer than the English one, in this case.

 

[DeuceBlade]

No one has played Lucas.. so really we don't fully know how he works... but from what we have seen.. I guess people will jump to conclusions.

 

[OysterMeister]

But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves.

Sakurai makes it pretty clear that Lucas and Ness don't share standard moves. Since standard moves make up the vast majority of any given moveset, this means that Lucas and Ness can't be considered clones. Even if their special moves were EXACTLY the same (and we can't tell from the pictures that they are not) Lucas and Ness would still not be clones.

This widespread belief that Lucas and Ness are clones isn't really an example of people twisting Sakurai's words so much as ignoring them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

First of all, the handicap update deconfirmed the old handicap system and introduced a new one. Second of all, Lucas SMs: In English, it had un until now. In Japanese it had Ima(now) and Made (until).

Made is close to "until", but lacks the "it's over" element, which as we have endlessly noted, is the CRITICAL difference between what was said in Japanese and what was said in English that spawned this.

Hell, you could search it on an online dictionary and you'll additionally get results that give exactly this.

But I'm gonna trust my native Japanese professor with a PhD in Linguistics. She made a special note about "imamade" being best translated as "until now", but lacking the connotation that it will not occur again.

Even then, it's pretty darn close.

Not close enough since it differs in the critical way. Imamade, does not include the connotation of something not occurring anymore, it just states that something has been occuring previously.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

"Until" is not what deconfirms something, it's the past tense included too.

"Up Until Now, I've been here" (present tense)
I was here here in the past, and I'm still here.

"Up Until Now, I was here" (past tense)
I was here in the past, but I'm not here anymore.

 

[Llumys]

Hmm, you're right. We hear what we want to hear.

 

[adumbrodeus]

"Until" is not what deconfirms something, it's the past tense included too.

"Up Until Now, I've been here" (present tense)
I was here here in the past, and I'm still here.

"Up Until Now, I was here" (past tense)
I was here in the past, but I'm not here anymore.

No, present tense means, "I just left", not "I'm still here". Up until now is imperfect tense (which is the real difference between it and the Japanese), which always terminated before the present.

Past tense is an action that occurred and then stopped (though the action can occurring multiple discreet times as long as they were individual), imperfect deals with what occurred over a period of time. The past tense would not deconfirm, only the imperfect.

Compare "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, "

to, "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series"

Only the latter (with the addition of the imperfect) says that the action has stopped being repeated, the latter just says that the action occurred and gives no idea about what the future may bring.



Until now is what makes it imperfect, and the Japanese version did not have "until now", they had something close, but not this tense.



So yeah, watch out for the imperfect.

 

[Black/Light]

I never said thats what it was.. I said thats what people thought..

Ness is gone? really.. I had no idea you were Sakurai.. cause only Sakurai could make that decision.. and theres no evidence that says hes absolutely gone.

I never said you said that, just that there was no reason for other people to think that which aint the case here.

And no, Im not Sakurai but I do read what he says. Seems clear to me that he did the old " Im not going to use this whole update to "deconfirm" Ness so Im going to touch on it just hard enuff for people to know" trick of hand. If you don't want to accept what was said on the site than thats you, I go by what Sakurai said and he made it as clear as day that Lucas is replacing him.

 

[EPX2]

PK Freeze is essentially PK Flash with freezing effects.

... which makes it a different move, does it not? It doesn't have to be performed differently, be used for a different purpose, or even have a different effect to be considered a separate move. Even so, that doesn't change the fact that Lucas' similarities in moveset end with his special moves.

They do share similar abilities in the Mother franchise, but they also have many different ones.

Yes, that was my point. I'm guessing you were saying that to support me?

MetaKnight and Dedede are different characters with different roles. Lucas and Ness are 2 different characters with the same role.

In two different games. Marth and Ike are two characters with virtually the same role (main characters of their respective games), yet I don't believe anyone (anyone with any common sense, at least) thinks Marth won't be returning for that reason. They're still two separate and distinct characters. But as I said, my intention is not to discuss whether or not Ness will return.

They still fill the same role, even if they're different characters.

See above.

First of all, the handicap update deconfirmed the old handicap system and introduced a new one.

... you're bringing up the handicap update as if I've ever denied that. Notice how I never said anything about the update confirming anything; all of my posts have been focused specifically on that "Up until now" statement - which doesn't confirm nor deny anything - so I don't know why you're bringing up the update when that has nothing to do with anything.

Second of all, Lucas SMs: In English, it had un until now. In Japanese it had Ima(now) and Made (until). Literally, it translates to up until now. And yes, the old handicap system is deconfirmed. We have a new one, yay. And made = until.

The update confirms that the handicap system has been changed. Not the quote. If the quote said, "Up until now, handicaps have worked like this," then you would be correct, but it doesn't. It simply notes that a handicap system has been included in the series thus far.

 

[Intercept]

Sakurai was blunt about assist trophies. Sakurai was blunt about secret characters being spoiled by online play. Sakurai was blunt about possible lag in online matches. Sakurai was blunt about the release date being pushed back.

Point is, Sakurai is blunt about things that might disappoint people.
Yet he was not blunt about Ness possibly being cut. He doesn't need to be cryptic if Ness is cut. He does need to be if Ness is still in the game.

I've typed in all my posts on smashboards up until now. Now I'm continuing that tradition.