here's the ISO between me and lore. While i'm not the most articulate writer, ill do my best to keep this concise cuz i know how annoying it is read EE-esque billion word posts
keep in mind while reading this that there's literally only one power role in this game.
here's Tom's first post which is the catalyst to everything. I will highlight parts of this post that should make it clear to anyone who read it in full that it wasn't about this game or at least it shoulda confused them a bit when they read it.
SOME REMINDERS FOR THE TOWN
if you rolled a power role, itd b prudent to breadcrumb a result in an underhanded way in the event that you die before you get to claim. this is especially important for cop tracker and joat. if youre confident that youre going to live you might b able to get away without doing it. but i figured id throw out the suggestion cuz with 4 scum role hunting and with some of us being out of practice its easy to forget some **** like that. it would suck for the tracker/joat/cop to die with a result n then they cant even share the ****
if youre a vanilla townie try not to perspective slip that youre a vt. the less info we give to scum with regards to role hunting the better
remember that if theres a mafia joat, that he can make himself appear as innocent on a cop check or as not having performed the kill to a tracker. so b mindful of that if we rolled one of those setups and hav to evaluate **** later lest we clear someone erroneously
that said idt we need to hav much discourse over roles lets just lynch scummy ppl
feel free to read me as town for this post but just dont b too vocal about it so i can live a few phases
quite a large portion of that post is highlighted. the crux of my issue with Lore is that if this post was something he claims to be devoting attention to, how does he miss all that? but let me not get ahead of myself, back to the ISO and my thought process
___
i didn't read Tom's post initially, i saw the big letters and I assumed it was marshy's post.
Maven and Lore make posts taking Tom's seriously. Here's that post from Lore:
Marshy vibes af from this post. I just can't remember if he was town when he did it. Will refresh myself later. I just feel auto-suspicious of early-advice posts that mention roles, but iirc that backfired last time with Marshy so I need to do a short reread.
This post pinged my radar right off the bat. Even if Tom's post was real it felt weird that Lore would immediately think it merited attention when its a pretty basic / innocuous and meta post. His reason is "auto-suspicious of early-advice posts that mention roles" but it still felt weird. Like I doubt my dude Lore is legit gonna start going back through other games to use it to form a read on Tom for that basic ass first post. And even if he did, how does marshy's use of that post have any impact on Tom's usage of it here, it's not like they have the same meta.
Lore's post read as
contribution signaling to me, where scum wants to appear to be trying to find scum but there actions don't actually reflect that
anyway, because of mavens and lores posts I thought maybe I was confused and went back to read tom's post to confirm it was marshy copy pasta. I didn't even bother reading it in full i just saw the word JOAT and went off that in this following post
these two posts are weird to me - im pretty sure tom posted marshy's post verbatim... my dude even kept the Town JOAT part which is a role that's not even in this game. i can't tell if my sarcasm detectors are off but it seems like yall were takin it semi seriously?
Lore
how is it relevant at all to this game whether or not marshy was scum?
Maven89
your post was just confusing cuz Tom didn't even mention you in it
even at this point Lore looked bad here, while Maven was just confusing. Maven didn't seem to be contribution signaling. So i go ahead and drop a vote on Lore since he pinged my scum bells harder than anything else. it wasn't a super strong read yet but i like to be doing something with my vote
kevin can live today cuz he made a good point about the fact that scum also has to scumhunt. though i don't think that point is really relevant until later on in the game
vote: Lore
what follows is Lore's response to my question to him
My gut instinct is to find early stuff like that suspicious, but I vaguely recalled that backfiring in that game with Marshy. I wanted to reread before doing a full commit to finding it weird, to try to train out the bad suspicion habit. It's still hilarious to me how Maven and I were both consistent in bringing up the same early post LOL. After seeing the Marshy bit again and the aftermath, I don't find anything wrong with Tom's post.
I also didn't realize it was a copy paste; I thought the JOAT was just a hypothetical role example since it was guaranteed to not be in the game lol. I was being dumb.
at the time i thought that while this was not the most unreasonable post, it didn't really do anything to assuage my concerns about Lore
contribution signaling. He basically just says he didnt realize it was copy pasta and re-states what he said in the initial post about why he was gonna go out of his way to read another thread. which to me even if he thought it was real still felt weird that he'd do that
kevin asks me who id wanna lynch and i respond.
Mac you have the ability to end this day right now by lynching someone just you, you’re the end all, be all hammer. What slot do you use it on?
i initially was gonna leave it at that without going further into detail since the game had just started and my read on Lore wasn't that strong. Also I wasn't tryna push him. Though a couple minutes later i decide to expand and in that post I say what I've already described above
though to expand on this
KevinM
i will say that oftentimes in early game that a bunch of town reads pop out to me / others right off the bat. This game however, has not been like that. lots of players lookin kinda grody
not a fan of Lore's reaction to Tom's post. even if he took what Tom posted seriously, i'm not sure why it would merit so much attention to him that he'd feel the need to go back and check Marshy's alignment to get read on Tom off that post. Also don't know why he felt like claiming that his read of the post is null now. like its a pretty basic first post so i find it weird that Lore apparently felt like he could read a lot off of it. doesn't feel genuine
tldr: seems like Lore was contribution signaling
Lore ninja'd my explanation with this post saying that I should expand on why im voting him. He calls my response "low effort" which is kinda an unnecessarily negative take cuz people shouldn't have to explain their votes all the time, especially this early on in the game. but w/e
Instead of dropping a vote out of nowhere then answering this question with a low-effort response, do you mind sharing reasoning?
You said that the Marshy-comparison posts were weird, but that's all the reason I've seen. And you seemed to have Maven and I as equal in that post.
your wish is my command
though Kevin just asked me who i would kill right now, he didnt ask for reasoning so there was no need for me to go into if i didn't want to. esp since i wasn't pushing you
do you find me scummy for leaving an unexplained vote and just dropping your name w/ no explanation
also lunch break is over so back to a work call
Thanks!
Nah it's not explicitly scummy, but it was definitely lame. I'd rather have a paper trail and reasonings put down. I'm glad that you expanded it. Replying to it now.
If it helps, I'm pretty sure I brought up in that last game that I need to break my habit of auto-suspecting overly helpful early-D1 posts that talk about PRs. That's what my entire interaction with Tom's post here was about.
lore re-states his initially stated reason. and like before it doesn't really assuage my main concern about him
anyway so I decide to go read the thread again and I finally actually read Tom's post in full, that's when I realize all the different parts of it that should have pinged Lore that something was off if he was truly taking the post as seriously as he claims. I figure maybe he did skim it like i did and so i try to get clarification on that with this post:
to be completely transparent about my thoughts, I ask because you said the bolded.
Tom's post referred to 3-4 different power roles, none of which are in this game. i don't see how you would have read his post in full and said something like that if the roles he mentioned aren't even in the game
Lore's initially stated reason that he keeps restating was that he's "auto-suspicious of early-advice posts that mention roles". When I went back and reread I couldn't see (and still can't) how Lore could feel that way but then not even notice the plethora of roles mentioned in Tom's post that don't have anything at all to do with this game. Also remember there's only one town seer this game so his worry about role **** is already kinda farfetch'd on it's face.
his answer to me brings up the first sentence of Tom's post:
I mean the post past the bold letters literally starts with "if you rolled a power role, itd b prudent to breadcrumb a result in an underhanded way in the event that you die before you get to claim." So I think it's reasonable to assume roles brought up are hypothetical.
It didn't hit me that it was a copy paste at all, unfortunately.
but he conveniently doesn't bring up the very next sentence and all the subsequent sentences that explicitly give role advice for the summer bash game.
also he literally didn't answer my question, so i ask him again:
did you read Tom's whole post initially?
I did, but it didn't really process to be fair.
Honestly though, I'm having a hell of a day irl and am not particularly enjoying having to play this semantics game. Especially with how I was completely clear in my intentions and views from the start.
weird that he claims it semantics, i literally just wanted him to directly answer my q. there's also little bit of AtE from Lore here, though i'm not gonna harp on this too much since I'd rather assume that Lore's acting in good faith and had IRL **** that was bothering him. but readers, if yall are still following along with this ISO, i think you can agree that i haven't been unreasonable in how ive questioned Lore up till this point.
im still a bit wary about being abrasive with ppl ever since the summer bash game, so i try to lay out my thought process as clearly and politely as i could in my next post:
honestly sorry ya feel that way, im really not tryna pester you pointlessly (i simply just asked you one question that i had to repeat cuz you didn't answer it directly). but the point of mafia is to determine who's scum and my only way of doing that is to question people and look for contradictions / things that don't add up.
the contradiction i see is as follows:
Tom makes a post that you take seriously:
he mentions the following roles (in bold): cop, tracker, joat, and mafia joat. None of these roles are in this game
you say:
you claim you read the post in full, so it'd be kinda hard to miss the 4 roles that Tom dropped in that post. Which makes what you said in bold even more confusing - If you were truly supsicious of advice posts that mention roles, wouldn't it make sense for you to have paid at least
some attention to what roles were mentioned?
Especially since you claim that you were gonna do a short re-read to confirm how you feel about that post. that seems like BS to me since there's no way you'd do a reread of a different game when you didn't even bother to coherently read / parse the post you were worried about in the first place. If you had, i don't see how you coulda thought it was related to this game / merit so much focus
in addition, you go on to say this when you were explaining how you claimed to misread the post initially:
but Tom also mentioned cop and tracker, did you also think those were hypothetical? it just doesn't add up to me.
anyway
open question to everyone (but specifically
Maven89
and @Tom): am I going crazy about this and focusing too hard on something that's irrelevant / a minor mistake? Or am I valid in thinking that Lore obviously said things that don't add up and don't align with his stated purpose
p.s.: this is giving me vibes of how i went after Tom when i was scum in summer bash mafia which sucks cuz im actually being genuine here haha...
lore responds:
Quick post reply before bed, I have a direction I want to explore tomorrow but am too tired.
Tldr: my credit card got stolen, and I made the mistake of trying to change banks at the same time (to swap from a local one at my hometown, since I live elsewhere now). This and more led to a hellish day. Thanks for understanding.
What I'm baffled by is how little you're understanding my posts, to be frank. You even quote me then go off on this tangent about an imaginary contradiction. Here's my original quote.
I, Lore, felt that the post from Tom was very similar to Marshy. I missed that it was a straight up copy paste.
The post mentioned roles in general and brought up multiple examples. I took it as hypothetical stuff, and if I literally didn't realize it was a copy paste, then is it that crazy to think that I didn't process the entire post well?
Next within my same and first post, I say that "auto suspecting role-mentioning" is a flaw of mine. I then say that before I have ANY opinion of the post, I need to reread Marshy's post since it bit me in the *** last time. Marshy was town, yet I (and Maven, ironically) thought the post was weird.
The "role-mentioning" is about how the entire ****ing post is talking about breadcrumbing power roles, not the fact that it brings up some roles. It is beyond frustrating at this point that you're focusing on the specific role examples rather than how the entire post was about roles.
It wasn't specific role fishing; it was a post that could earn a player townie points by appearing helpful, while also potentially baiting PRs into attempting breadcrumbs. I saw that as fishy. Turns out it wasn't, and it was Marshy being helpful. That means that I needed to be cautious about suspecting that sort of thing, which I said last game and said again this game.
he re-states his initial reasoning for why he might go reread a different thread, which for all the reasons ive mentioned up to this point doesn't change my core issues with him.
there's also more AtE by Lore in this post which kinda annoys me cuz i was tryna be reasonable.
this is also the point where I think Lore starts being clearly disingenuous.
He claims Tom's entire post was about breadcrumbing roles, which it's really not. If anything it's primarily about
specific role advice regarding the set up from summer bash mafia
he claims i'm misunderstanding his posts and going off on a "tangent about an imaginary contradiction" which to me seems like a ridiculous take on my previous post
he claims he may have worried about Tom trying to bait ppl to into breadcrumbing PRs and thus role fishing, which doesn't make sense, cuz as yall remember, there's only one power role in this game.
and then lore drops this:
Frankly you've wasted most of the day on this irrelevant content on a nonexistent "contradiction", instead of scum hunting.
I'm sleeping on it instead of falling into OMGUS territory; otherwise I'd be voting you for wasting our time.
Not to mention your honestly disgusting mention of "lol this is how I played last time I was scum, but I'm town this time, I promise!" Jokes like that go over like a lead balloon for me.
Sleeping on it though instead of diving into another 1v1 that clogs the thread and wastes EVEN MORE time and attention.
like wtf is this **** right here, if yall have been following along does it really seem like im being unreasonable thus far?
"mac is a detriment to town" and "is wasting towns time" becomes Lore's most oft repeated statement about me, simply because I was scumhunting and asking him questions. Like I'm really curious what he'd have preferred i do when something pings my scumdar. also i will remind everyone that Lore explicitly wanted me to expand on my initial dislike of his slot
This is also the point where Lore starts becoming clear scum in my eyes because that reaction is so ridiculously defensive and is just completely misrepresenting my actions.
also it rubs me the wrong way how Lore starts setting himself up for the OMGUS vote on me. 1. because i think its ridiculous that he'd find me scummy based on what ive been doing and 2. if he really does find me scummy own up to your **** and vote for me now
i try again to make it explicitly clear what i think Lore's contradiction is in my next post:
lore, the post talks about more than just breadcrumbing roles, only the first paragraph is about that. there's even a section that explicitly gives advice regarding the setup from summer bash:
there are so many places like the above in the post that should have tipped you off that it wasn't regarding this game, especially if you were gonna spend more time investigating it like you claimed
and cuz you seem to be mis-representing or misunderstanding my issue with your slot ill make it as clear as possible:
- Tom makes a post that you say you want to spend more time investigating.
- All the subsequent replies you've made regarding the post (including this last one) makes it clear that you never fully read that post in the first place.
- Therefore it appears that you were BSing about wanting to investigate the post more. and only scum would do that
uhh i AM scumhunting by doing this, lol what else would this be?
this criticism doesn't make sense. i don't think i dominated the thread - ppl can and have talked about other stuff. not that many ppl even responded to my post... and even if i did dominate, would you prefer i didn't post anything like many in the game or that i posted meaningless **** like Brindor's slot?
and lets not forget - you LITERALLY ASKED me to expand on why you were my current top choice for scum. like cmon bruh, dont get mad when i do exactly what you say
OK? congrats. this shows that you're soooooo townie
was never my intention, please don't bother responding to this post if this bugs you so much
i say if he really thinks im wasting towns time to stop responding to my posts. esp cuz at this point i've heard what I needed from him
#HBC | Mac
Have you ever considered that if I didn't realize it was a copy paste in the first place, maybe I didn't process the post mentally enough? Like I've been repeatedly saying?
At this point you're either scum, tunnel-visioned town, or straight up dumb. And I really don't think it's that third option.
at this point i try to stop responding to Lore cuz i am wary of the way he can have back and forths with ppl and we are talking in circles. and he keeps pushing this im wasting time bull****
Vote: Tom
Lynch priority:
Tom
Ryu
Brindor
FrozenFlame
Potentially Kev depending on responses/future content, the Pythag stuff is weird imo
Mac
not directly related to our back and forth but I just want to note here that Lore has tom at the top of his scum list and me at the bottom. keep this in mind wrt him setting himself up to OMGUS vote me
... Because I automatically suspect any post like that in the early game, but I wanted to go back and reread Marshy's content to try to break that habit if the posts were similar. I directly said that. Turns out they were literally exactly the same. I'm getting very frustrated about having to repeat myself.
"Faking scumhunting" in my first post of the game, where I also made a firm vote on another player? Come on.
As for the rest, we've wasted time and energy on this back and forth that is about my first post in the game and none of my other content. Yes, you're absolutely tunnel-visioned. You spent pretty much an entire IRL day on this, when we have only 3 days. Literally a third of D1 has been spent on this nonsense.
The fact that you're now saying "imma never jump off your slot" despite only talking about a single post this entire time is, frankly, absurd. Take a few minutes away from this game, breathe, and come back with fresh eyes.
this begins another oft repeated talking point from Lore that I'm "only focusing on a single post". Like what even is his point here anyway? Of course if theres a post that pings me as scum, im gonna focus on it. Even in this game people have had issues with Raxxle, Pythag and Red Ryu off of
one single post. I don't see Lore having such an issue with those pushes.
Also it's not even ****ing true, I've talked about how i've had issues with his super defensive and unreasonable reactions to my questions. I talked about how while the first post was what led me down this road, his responses continue to show that he wasn't paying attn to the very post he claims merits a lot of attn.
just another stupid ass talking point on something thats not even scummy
he asks about maven vs him i respond with what i said above
Also how did you go from this:
To this:
Maven and I had similar reactions, and you even called him out on it. Now you're asking just his opinions on me, without any actual heat on him? What?
99% of your posts have been either about me or asking people about me. Take a break from the game if that's what's needed for fresh eyes, because right now you're absolutely a detriment to Town.
my dude says here that 99% of my posts have been about him, disingenuous yet again. While he is my focus I've also done the following:
- prodded pythag about a bunch of things on a bunch of different occasions
- chipped in on the raxxle thing
- talked to Kevin about how i feel about Ruy
- asked maven a billion questions that he keeps ignoring (though for some reason i have a gut town read on this slot lol)
- asked people various clarifying questions
- talked about meta **** like why i don't think scum would role fish and why i think town getting lynched is not as bad as in other games
- among tons of other things
im pretty sure ive been the most active player in this game
diff between you and maven, is that Maven didn't claim that he was suspicious of Tom's post and that he was gonna spend more time thinking about it
im a detriment to town for pushing my scumread. right, thanks for the solid mafia advice.
next is more BS spewed by lore, but at this point going through his posts is becoming a serious chore cuz he repeats the same dumbass talking points
What? Seriously, what?
Pythag voted for Raxxel. When asked if he was ok if a Town player might die, he directly said he'd be fine with it. He next said that while he doesn't want to lynch Town, the player should be blamed for that mislynch.
That's the definition of a hard, clear stance. What thread are you reading?
Mac, I'm going to quote myself again to show my reaction to the post. Please read it again.
Where did I say that I was firmly suspicious of the post? I said that I got Marshy vibes and that I tend to be auto-suspicious of posts like that, so I wanted to reread the Marshy stuff to compare the situations. I remembered my suspicion of Marshy backfiring, with Marshy actually being Town.
I laid out my thought process clearly, in a detailed manner. In no way was I firmly suspicious or even said that I was. I will be copy pasting this and the last paragraph in every single reply to your posts on this subject.
Mac, you're playing like me at my worst in the last few games. I want you to think on how you felt when I was hyper focused on Ran, or the other tunneling moments. You're so tunneled in that you are still only talking about my literal first post in the game. If people can call me out on that behavior, I can certainly do the same to you.
Take a break and come back to the game.
the bolded/underlined is not true. you might be my primary focus but im clearly still looking at and talking about other things in the game.
lore i said you don't have to keep responding to me, so don't. you might be town and i might be tunneling and im sure that could be annoying if that's actually the case, but its also just how mafia goes sometimes. also don't forget you were the one who initially gave me **** for not expanding on why you were my #1 scumread. and now you're giving me **** for the opposite.
... What? You do realize that I'm talking about your discussions about me, right? Even when I was at my worst tunneling, I still made some small posts about other subjects. It doesn't change that you are hyperfocused on a single post, to the point where it is defining your top scum pick and dominating your discussions on me.
You're 100% tunneling, and you're correct! It's very annoying.
What's even more annoying is this weird attitude. You expanded on your reasoning at the time. Cool. Thank you for that. Now you're tunneled in on that one post and not even looking at anything else from me, and even when the post has been repeatedly explained, you're still lasered in on it and arguing about it.
All joking aside, it's incredibly frustrating on the receiving end.
"Even when I was at my worst tunneling, I still made some small posts about other subjects. It doesn't change that you are hyperfocused on a single post, to the point where it is defining your top scum pick and dominating your discussions on me."
oh but Lore didn't you
just say:
"99% of your posts have been either about me or asking people about me."
like this post is Lore being mad cuz im simply playing the game of mafia
then this next post is just a ton of complete misrepresentations of my position (as FF articulately explained much better than i could)
Good to see you in the thread Tom. Solid content, but I've been avoiding voting Mac to both avoid falling into OMGUS and to take some time to figure out if he's just tunneling-town. I'll sleep on it. Unvote
FF, that post reeks of someone who speed-read the thread, no offense. Work johns are real, and I'm glad you showed back up. However, I did the same speed read thing in a game recently, and it led to issues on my end.
Like your take on Mac and I is, frankly, garbage. Here's how the thing with Mac went:
Mac: "Why did you not realize that it didn't pertain to this game, since it mentioned other roles?"
Lore: "Considering how I didn't even realize it was a copy paste, it appears that I didn't really fully take in and mentally process the post well enough. I took the other roles as being hypotheticals since the whole post was more about breadcrumbing in general, so I wanted to go read Marshy's old stuff to try to break my auto-suspecting habit of posts like that."
Mac: "Yeah but why did you not realize that it didn't pertain to this game, since it mentioned other roles?"
And repeat over. And over. And over again. I dare you to get in a similar situation and NOT get frustrated.
He absolutely wasted our time, and it was a complete detriment to Town that it happened in the first place. If people are allowed to say that about me in other games and not get flak, I sure as hell can say the same about Mac.
And as for defensiveness, have you considered the fact that Mac is STILL only talking about a single post of mine from the literal beginning of the game? If I sound defensive and frustrated about it, it's because I f***ing am.
I've been open and honest about having misread that post from the beginning, and I was clear about my intent from the get go. This isn't even AtE at this point, I'm legitimately frustrated at having to repeat myself so many f***ing times regardless of alignment.
Like ffs, you did the same crap here too. Your entire read of me goes only on that one post and my growing frustration with Mac. Come on.
he also continues to set himself up to OMGUS vote me. of course he feels more comfortable doing it now that that Brindor, z25 and Tom all expressed that they'd be ok seeing me go. remember i was like 5/6th on his scum list a while
he finally owns up and votes me:
Dude. I've been saying that it's not just that I didn't realize it was copy pasta. I even directly said why I brought it up in the initial post then over and over again since.
The fact that you're baffled that people disagree is probably because you haven't even bothered to do an ISO until now. You're hyper focused on my one post and disregarding whatever I'm saying. You're tunneled.
After some sleep, I'm with Tom on the echoes from Summer Mafia. In that game, you hyper focused on one interaction of mine, came to a truce on it since it was flimsy, then later dove back into the same argument and forgot that we ended it, repeating yourself like you're doing here. You were scum in that game. I've been avoiding saying this or voting for you since, frankly and outside of alignment, you've been a bit annoying this game. I figured OMGUS would color my judgement too much.
But nah I'd rather see you gone.
Vote: Mac
"The fact that you're baffled that people disagree is probably because you haven't even bothered to do an ISO until now"
just more dumb **** that im annoyed i have to respond to. why are you painting it so negatively that i "haven't bothered" to do an ISO. was I supposed to? is there some law in the mafia rulebook that says you should ISO anyone you're trying to get lynched? you also were literally giving me **** for just asking you questions and now youre tryna make me look bad for not ISOing. how do you keep just painting everything i do so negatively?
and I'm more baffled that people like you and tom don't see where im coming from even if you don't agree with me.
lore im doing my best to not respond to your ******* posts. you're tryna suck me in but imma stay strong
i didnt want to post this at the time but its def how i felt and continue to feel
