Jumpkeeping? a New DK Tech!?

[Soniclamp]

INTRODUCTION:
Hey guys, Lamp here with possibly a new DK tech!
After searching all the DK boards/youtube vids and reddit posts I couldn't find any mention to it, or the mechanic behind it.
so Really excited to show you guys what I've been calling Jumpkeeping.

DKS CURRENT OPTIONS:
So a little bit of background:
the thing about DK right now is if you want to kill your opponent when you're at high percents/quick kill opponent is at low percents it usually involves killing your self.
-Stage-Spiking under battlefield
-Cargo Run off (opponent still has a jump after break out)
The stuff were all used to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZurOw_kbK0

PROS:
-Raw grab can give you kinda sudo rest when you trade high precents to kill their fresh stock
-Retains mix-up ability
-Very use full vs New players/people unfamiliar with the mu

CONS:
-Teching is a big one it'll waste your stock if the opponent knows what your trying to do.
-Can only easily be done on battlefield works on other stages but its a lot harder to get the spike
-You'll always die
-Heavy all or nothing scenarios
Not to spectacular but its what we have

What is Jumpkeeping?

So if DK grabs an opponent that has burned his second jump either by Air dodge/Double jump/Free Fall or my favorite AFTER AND DURING UP-B AND SIDE-B,
then Cargo but lets the opponent mash out of cargo your opponent will never get their jump back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppm4GAmecbs

Different ways to use jumpkeeping:
-Stand near the ledge wait for them to break out of your cargo
-Wait until you notice they start mashing (Characters arms will flail more quickly) and walk off it'll put them in a terrible angle and dk will still have access to his double jump after cargo release!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QMqWDKi_tU
-Jump with the opponent held and set up to hit them recovering with a DK UP-B


DKS NEW OPTIONS:

PROS:
YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO LIVE, CAN BE DONE ON ANY STAGE, Most people don't set up for the UP-B to recover and just die when the double jump doesn't work, Amazing vs characters that have grab-able up b-s and side b-s (Capt. Falcon, Ganon, Marth, Fox and Falco)
Good vs people who spam double jump, if you grab them after taking their jump with up air/just combing with up air they still don't have it, it feels really good with his kit.
Its fun not to hard to set up
Setting up hard trades for your opponent when they know they don't have a jump
Forcing the win out right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6YyqSImubw
they're a lot of underutilized pros

CONS:
Setup required
A lot of times they wont mash out and you walk off with them and you'll both die, but if you were alright doing all the options before this tech you already know how valuable it might be to live in those scenarios.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZU71pzotA
they can hold up and just do the up b if they realize what your doing doesn't give them back their jump, but even this sets up for more mix ups and since they are hastily UP-Bing
There are a lot of possible unknown cons

CONCLUSION:
I mostly just wanted to get this out there and get some further discussion going on from other DK players, in a lot of cases it might be better to do something else to close out the stock but in right scenarios this could be exactly what DK mains are looking for!
This is my first post ever so if I'm missing anything or you have any questions let me know, Any Feedback is appreciated!
I've been having a hard time finding a DK discord if theirs an active one please link me! if not ill post a new one in the comments of this post.
Also a special thanks to my friends who've helped develop this tech and for letting me keep their jumps <3
shouts out also to Kaerknight the Ganon on netplay for the footage thanks dude

 

[kaerknight]

Very cool tech, glad I could help!

 

[CAUP]

Cool post! It's always exciting to see new people labbing new things. Sadly I am going to be a bummer here. I'm pretty sure this isn't real. Testing would have to be done to be sure but I'm pretty sure you're overlooking something.

In Melee, when you mash out of a grab or get released from a grab, there are two releases: grounded release and air release. Grounded release, you are released on the ground. Air release, you are released in the air. To do air release, hold upward when being released from a grab. When you are grounded released, you don't have a double jump. When you are aerial released, you gain a double jump.

In other words, I'm pretty sure you can hold up in this situation to get your jump back. I'm not positive since DK has a command grab which may work differently than other grabs, but every other grab in the game works like this (except maybe koopa klaw? I'm not sure about that one).

Also it's worth noting that I'm pretty sure the setup of the opponent using their up b and double jump isn't necessary. I think you just need to grab them and if they mash out in such a way where they get grounded release, they are probably dead. This works as other characters if you grab someone right by the ledge. It's actually pretty okay against fast fallers in some matchups.

Grabbing your opponent and fast falling off stage with them is used by DKs somewhat frequently.

If you're looking for a DK discord, look up smashcords on google. It's a community of discords related to smashbros. There will be one for Melee DK. If you need help finding that let me know.

If you're interested in DK labbing, in my opinion one player has really stood out recently, the Texas player Jaywalker. Here's a match of his and you can find more matches on the channel: https://youtu.be/AaHbryGpxzs I think he has a lot of really good ideas as the character.

Good luck on all future DK labbing!

 

[Soniclamp]

Cool post! It's always exciting to see new people labbing new things. Sadly I am going to be a bummer here. I'm pretty sure this isn't real. Testing would have to be done to be sure but I'm pretty sure you're overlooking something.

In Melee, when you mash out of a grab or get released from a grab, there are two releases: grounded release and air release. Grounded release, you are released on the ground. Air release, you are released in the air. To do air release, hold upward when being released from a grab. When you are grounded released, you don't have a double jump. When you are aerial released, you gain a double jump.

In other words, I'm pretty sure you can hold up in this situation to get your jump back. I'm not positive since DK has a command grab which may work differently than other grabs, but every other grab in the game works like this (except maybe koopa klaw? I'm not sure about that one).

Also it's worth noting that I'm pretty sure the setup of the opponent using their up b and double jump isn't necessary. I think you just need to grab them and if they mash out in such a way where they get grounded release, they are probably dead. This works as other characters if you grab someone right by the ledge. It's actually pretty okay against fast fallers in some matchups.

Grabbing your opponent and fast falling off stage with them is used by DKs somewhat frequently.

If you're looking for a DK discord, look up smashcords on google. It's a community of discords related to smashbros. There will be one for Melee DK. If you need help finding that let me know.

If you're interested in DK labbing, in my opinion one player has really stood out recently, the Texas player Jaywalker. Here's a match of his and you can find more matches on the channel: https://youtu.be/AaHbryGpxzs I think he has a lot of really good ideas as the character.

Good luck on all future DK labbing!

Hey Thanks for your reply!
I have to leave soon but I wanted to reply kinda quickly and maybe debunk a few things.
So I've been in the lab and found that cargo still takes their jump weather or not you are holding up for the ariel release ,its definitely possible that theres a way to just brick this but as for now, we still out here lol
I've been telling my friends to hold up so they can get ready to line up an up-b so we would have noticed if that gave the person back their jump back.
So the reason what I set up is different from other DKS just running off the stage is:
other DKS are just hoping the opponent doesn't break out to trade, just running of the stage isn't a good setup they can DJ and UP-B and the DK will always die
with the tech its the same risk but the DK might actually be able to survive/ set up for better edge guards as the other person can only UP-B and the DK will still have access to DJ and UP-B
UP-B Grabbing is just one maybe nitch application personally where I've gotten alot of use is grabbing them mid combo after they burn there double jump Especially if they don't know whats going.
I've been going to locals with this tech I might have gotten some of it recorded, if so ill post it here.
Hope this was able to clear up a bit of what I missed the original post
The top 4 links on google for discord all host expired links if you had one you wanted to link no complaints here!
Thanks for the vid link also!

 

[Soniclamp]

REAL QUICK ADD IN
You mostly wanna be off the stage when you do this you dont wanna just hold them off the stage the reason you'd stand at ledge is to watch for when they mash and jump off ledge so they're forced to recover farther away
the results of this tech are way more inconsistent if you just hold them at the ledge and wait for them to mash
theres alot of mix up potiental it requires at least a bit of knowledge of whats happening to know how to beat it or not fall for the mix ups IE: stand at ledge, jump off, back cargo throw if they dont mash, throw into stage, throw after from stage.

 

[CAUP]

You're definitely right, this is a real thing. I tested it for myself just to be sure. I also tested it with bowser's koopa klaw but it doesn't work for him. I don't think this is very well known information about DK. As you say in the later thread, you just need to grab them out of double jump, not necessarily up b. I think you should come up with a different name then jump keeping since it sounds like you are saving a jump instead of making sure your opponent doesn't get one. So maybe "jump stealing" or something like that.

This is cool though! It's always neat to find out new information about the game. I think it's somewhat niche but definitely still useful. I can mostly see it being useful against characters with bad vertical recoveries. Also grabbing yoshi out of his double jump just kills him. It definitely could be useful against falco as well.

I experimented against fox with side b after he up b s. You can hit him during the start up of his up b and take advantage of the 40 frame lock out from meteor cancelling after up b ing. So it's an interesting gimp set up. Also DK always goes through 15 frames of stun when his opponent breaks out of cargo throw, but the opponent goes through more or less frames of stun depending on the character. So I'm guessing against some characters breaking out of cargo throw combos into DK's 2 frame up b.

Really cool discovery, or at least exploration of a little known tech. Super good stuff.

Edit: Also the DK discord being gone sucks : / I wonder if there is anywhere the character is being discussed.

 

[Gamer Cube]

Nooooooo! This ruins my Recovery! XD. But srsly, this is really cool. How did you find it? Were you experimenting, or did you find it during matches? I'd really like to know. This still can ruin some people's game when they are matched up against DK AKA both my mains.

 

[Soniclamp]

Nooooooo! This ruins my Recovery! XD. But srsly, this is really cool. How did you find it? Were you experimenting, or did you find it during matches? I'd really like to know. This still can ruin some people's game when they are matched up against DK AKA both my mains.

So I was VSing a buddy of mine and he was playing jigglypuff of all characters to find out about this and he airdodged i grabbed him, cargo then jumped off he ended up breaking out and realized he had no jumps. Personally it didn't click to me what happened but my other buddy who is super OG called it out and said we need to test that.
I've been playing DK a lot over the year or two and I'm surprised that it hasn't accidentally happened to other DK players, I seen one smashboard post from like 8 years ago that sounded close but the next comment said it wasn't real and that was the end of that lol
Thanks for the reply dude hoping its a tool DK players can use/expand upon

 

[Gamer Cube]

So I was VSing a buddy of mine and he was playing jigglypuff of all characters to find out about this and he airdodged i grabbed him, cargo then jumped off he ended up breaking out and realized he had no jumps. Personally it didn't click to me what happened but my other buddy who is super OG called it out and said we need to test that.
I've been playing DK a lot over the year or two and I'm surprised that it hasn't accidentally happened to other DK players, I seen one smashboard post from like 8 years ago that sounded close but the next comment said it wasn't real and that was the end of that lol
Thanks for the reply dude hoping its a tool DK players can use/expand upon

Dude, that's devastating for people like Jigglypuff, DeDeDe, and Kirby. You can literally kill them at any percent!

 

[CAUP]

Gamer Cube this is a melee thread.

 

[Gamer Cube]

OOOOOF I'm sorry didn't know.

 

[Vije]

I like the tech. Seems likely to fail most of the time and is very niche but it looks so funny in practice.

Definitely trying it out in my next weekly.

 

[CAUP]

I've gotten this a few times againt spacies in friendlies so far. They're definitely confused on what's happening when I just stand by the ledge in cargo throw and wait for them to mash out haha. No one has survived from it yet. Following them with side b is also pretty solid.

 

[Falco_DJ]

INTRODUCTION:
Hey guys, Lamp here with possibly a new DK tech!
After searching all the DK boards/youtube vids and reddit posts I couldn't find any mention to it, or the mechanic behind it.
so Really excited to show you guys what I've been calling Jumpkeeping.

DKS CURRENT OPTIONS:
So a little bit of background:
the thing about DK right now is if you want to kill your opponent when you're at high percents/quick kill opponent is at low percents it usually involves killing your self.
-Stage-Spiking under battlefield
-Cargo Run off
The stuff were all used to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZurOw_kbK0

PROS:
-Raw grab can give you kinda sudo rest when you trade high precents to kill their fresh stock
-Retains mix-up ability
-Very use full vs New players/people unfamiliar with the mu

CONS:
-Teching is a big one it'll waste your stock if the opponent knows what your trying to do.
-Can only easily be done on battlefield works on other stages but its a lot harder to get the spike
-You'll always die
-Heavy all or nothing scenarios
Not to spectacular but its what we have

What is Jumpkeeping?

So if DK grabs an opponent that has burned his second jump either by Air dodge/Double jump/Free Fall or my favorite AFTER AND DURING UP-B AND SIDE-B,
then Cargo but lets the opponent mash out of cargo your opponent will never get their jump back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppm4GAmecbs

Different ways to use jumpkeeping:
-Stand near the ledge wait for them to break out of your cargo
-Wait until you notice they start mashing (Characters arms will flail more quickly) and walk off it'll put them in a terrible angle and dk will still have access to his double jump after cargo release!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QMqWDKi_tU
-Jump with the opponent held and set up to hit them recovering with a DK UP-B


DKS NEW OPTIONS:

PROS:
YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO LIVE, CAN BE DONE ON ANY STAGE, Most people don't set up for the UP-B to recover and just die when the double jump doesn't work, Amazing vs characters that have grab-able up b-s and side b-s (Capt. Falcon, Ganon, Marth, Fox and Falco)
Good vs people who spam double jump, if you grab them after taking their jump with up air/just combing with up air they still don't have it, it feels really good with his kit.
Its fun not to hard to set up
Setting up hard trades for your opponent when they know they don't have a jump
Forcing the win out right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6YyqSImubw
they're a lot of underutilized pros

CONS:
Setup required
A lot of times they wont mash out and you walk off with them and you'll both die, but if you were alright doing all the options before this tech you already know how valuable it might be to live in those scenarios.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZU71pzotA
they can hold up and just do the up b if they realize what your doing doesn't give them back their jump, but even this sets up for more mix ups and since they are hastily UP-Bing
There are a lot of possible unknown cons

CONCLUSION:
I mostly just wanted to get this out there and get some further discussion going on from other DK players, in a lot of cases it might be better to do something else to close out the stock but in right scenarios this could be exactly what DK mains are looking for!
This is my first post ever so if I'm missing anything or you have any questions let me know, Any Feedback is appreciated!
I've been having a hard time finding a DK discord if theirs an active one please link me! if not ill post a new one in the comments of this post.
Also a special thanks to my friends who've helped develop this tech and for letting me keep their jumps <3
shouts out also to Kaerknight the Ganon on netplay for the footage thanks dude

Nice! This is the ultimate level of disrespect, lol.

 

[Soniclamp]

Glad you guys been finding uses for the tech!
I'll be updating the guide soon as I've learned a decent amount of new stuff about the tech.
Feel free to drop any suggestions I feel like we're just scratching the surface with this!
Follow ya boy on Twitter to see dk combos and hopfully expand on the conversation
@frmrlamp

 

[Vincey_Boi]

Damn, I hope to see some DK's use this tech in tournaments its very hype when a DK plays and actually wins such as when Moe Beat Profrssor Pro at Valhalla 2 with DK and managed to get 17th at this hella stacked tournament.

 

[CAUP]

Soniclamp, I'm excited to hear what new ideas you have for the tech.

 

[CAUP]

This seems to be a tech which gets much worse if your opponent is very aware of how it works. I've been using it against my brother and now he mashes in a specific way where he always up b s to instantly grab ledge (he plays falco). Also at zero he knows how many mash inputs is required to get out so he always times the up b perfectly. I try to mix in jumping off stage instead of holding him there but usually if I don't guess perfectly, he can react to the run off attempt and stop mashing. It's a mixup which requires more thought on my end. Probably mixing in some unreactable green ranger throw attempt would open up the possibilities.

 

[Soniclamp]

Yeah sorry I've been gone for a while
That's kinda what's good with donkey Kong if you know the way they're di ing most of the time you can follow up.
It depends on the stage but a quick example is if when you do it hes just holding up and mashing b, you can cargo up throw into up b to send him away with no di with just up airing at certain percents you can also probably get no di to follow up into some crazy combos or grab ledge when hes recovering with no jumps and it him away with dk up b edgeguard
While I do think the techs strength is in its ambiguity and misunderstanding there's certainly play If you know what hes going for/wants to do and mixup doing it or not doing it on the set up
Also too when I set this up after they break out I feel like there's ample time to punish an up b from falco it's not really that good and even if they get back on stage they're in a bad spot
Personally I like making people mash cause they get tired so I'll hold em pummel once put them on my back listen to them mash like crazy until they stop then I dont let till they start mashing again if you can land consistant grabs on a masher they'll mash slower/be fatigued from the match
I plan on making a discord after I leave work today if you'd be interested on joining that I'd also like to see a match and we can go over what's going on more specifically.
Thanks for having interest and keeping up on this thread cuap!

 

[Soniclamp]

https://discord.gg/7xgyFC Official DK Discord!
bear with me while i figure out how to use discord but nonetheless its up!

 

[Soniclamp]

https://discord.gg/VxVUWU2 heres a never expire link

 

[Soniclamp]

https://discord.gg/Fu2MVQh
I ended up finding the official discord after sometime join this one instead!

 

[Soniclamp]

We made Melee Library!
id love to do an update to these videos and with what i've learned as they could use a bit of updating.
Hopefully more things soon!

 

[Soniclamp]

https://twitter.com/Frmrlamp/status/1258243604461617152?s=20
heres a better view of some jumpkeeping setups and a little something for that yoshi matchup.