Javi Claw (General Fox controller playstyles)

[kailo34ce]

So on stream i believe they said Javi is a claw player, does anyone personally know him/ did anyone see his hands? im curious which kind of claw he plays. the kid is pretty technical...

 

[FoxLisk]

yeah it was visible on stream at one point. he had the controller on his knee, he used his thumb for c-stick, his index finger for A+B, and his middle finger for jump. i dunno what he used for shoulder buttons, maybe just used L. that's what i gathered from the shot I saw; someone who watched him in person can probably give a mroe confident answer.

 

[mers]

Ya, claw is a pretty bad description. It's really more of a keyboard grip.

 

[Cactuar]

He basically uses the GC controller like a fight stick. Normal grip on the left hand, thumb on analog and index on L, but right hand is facedown on the controller. There are videos of him from years ago doing it. Not gonna lie, I tried it out like 2 years ago for a while and really liked it, but I couldn't deal with not having easy access to Z, and having to use the cstick with my thumb. I'm not sure what Javi does to grab, but most of the time I see him get them, it is a jab->grab or shield grab (or just a situation where it gets set up into, rather than super quick). It seems like his grab game is a little weaker because of it, but his style lets him have incredible precision with shines and stuff, so I think its a pretty decent trade.

 

[LLDL]

He used his thumb for the control stick, and his index and middle fingers for and b like an arcade stick. I also saw his pinky ring finger on the R button.

 

[kailo34ce]

ok i understand. my friend picked that up awhile back, and at first he was bad of course, but then he got mega technical, i never paid attention to his grab game but im sure thats the flaw with this claw (or whatever you want to call it).

i would like to see a poll in the fox community of which button players use to jump

 

[Varist]

if they're not using Y they're missing out. shdl is too fancy

 

[RaynEX]

There are so many people who do SHDL with X. It's weird but definitely possible. I use Y for all my jumps.

 

[Varist]

?!?!!

but what if they accidentally nair! the ****, do they do a hoop around the a or something or have supreme control of their thumbs?

I use gray stick for jumping OOS so I can have my thumb already on c-stick for an aerial.

 

[kailo34ce]

ya i use x and i mean back in the dayy it was like "omg its impossible" but you get used to it. i mean the controller buttons B A X are ergonomic so its really nothing more than the curve your thumb goes in naturally, and with multishines and sdhl its not really about how fast you go from B to jump, but howfast you go from jump to b, and the difference is negligible , using two fingers tho (claw, keyboard grip, etc) it becomes a whole different concept

and @ varist, even if you slide over the a button it usually happens during the jump frames (4 i think?) so it gets completely ignored

i mean both X and Y are going to get you the same results eventually if you are just using your thumb,unless maybe you use Y and just kinda pivot your thumb around withoutactually moving it, this seems in theory like it would give good results altho im not sure if anyone actually plays this way, claw seems to maybe give you the highest technical ceiling,the most technical player in my state holds the controller like javi

 

[RaynEX]

ya i use x and i mean back in the dayy it was like "omg its impossible" but you get used to it. i mean the controller buttons B A X are ergonomic so its really nothing more than the curve your thumb goes in naturally, and with multishines and sdhl its not really about how fast you go from B to jump, but howfast you go from jump to b, and the difference is negligible , using two fingers tho (claw, keyboard grip, etc) it becomes a whole different concept

and @ varist, even if you slide over the a button it usually happens during the jump frames (4 i think?) so it gets completely ignored

i mean both X and Y are going to get you the same results eventually if you are just using your thumb,unless maybe you use Y and just kinda pivot your thumb around withoutactually moving it, this seems in theory like it would give good results altho im not sure if anyone actually plays this way, claw seems to maybe give you the highest technical ceiling,the most technical player in my state holds the controller like javi

Y's strength is that its the closer jump button to B. It cuts down the effort you have to exert to rapidly toggle Y, Bx2, Y, Bx2, for the SHDL. The best point you made was that while SHDL'ing' with X, your thumb might glide over the A button but the input usually doesn't register. It is because, like you stated, you are still executing the jump.

To say that using the claw style provides a player with the most technical potential is an uninformed fact. On the contrary, I've found that those who use claw are more fidgety and eccentric. Colbol and Javi both come to mind in this example. Two technical Foxes, both very speedy and tricky, but not as refined in technical prowess as say Silentwolf, Lovage, or Dark (who ALL hold the controller in the traditional style). I'm not saying they can't achieve that level of control or that it is more difficult because of the claw technique. I'm implying that, as it stands, the "highest technical ceiling" has been reached by a select few who don't employ the claw.

Part of the magic of this game is that you can choose to do whatever you please and still find success through diligence and hard work. I think we can agree: becoming technical is hard enough. But to worry about adapting to a needlessly awkward and unorthodox grip in the process? For me at least, my reply is "No thanks." Much respect to those that are comfortable doing it though.

 

[kailo34ce]

Y's strength is that its the closer jump button to B. It cuts down the effort you have to exert to rapidly toggle Y, Bx2, Y, Bx2, for the SHDL. The best point you made was that while SHDL'ing' with X, your thumb might glide over the A button but the input usually doesn't register. It is because, like you stated, you are still executing the jump.

To say that using the claw style provides a player with the most technical potential is an uninformed fact. On the contrary, I've found that those who use claw are more fidgety and eccentric. Colbol and Javi both come to mind in this example. Two technical Foxes, both very speedy and tricky, but not as refined in technical prowess as say Silentwolf, Lovage, or Dark (who ALL hold the controller in the traditional style). I'm not saying they can't achieve that level of control or that it is more difficult because of the claw technique. I'm implying that, as it stands, the "highest technical ceiling" has been reached by a select few who don't employ the claw.

Part of the magic of this game is that you can choose to do whatever you please and still find success through diligence and hard work. I think we can agree: becoming technical is hard enough. But to worry about adapting to a needlessly awkward and unorthodox grip in the process? For me at least, my reply is "No thanks." Much respect to those that are comfortable doing it though.

yeah i took care to put "seems to maybe give you highest technical ceiling" because i know it isnt fact. i have no preference towards any controller style (although it seems to be a fun joke to make fun of claw players) and i realize how Y is much closer but i think with alot of practice the difference(work) kinda fades, in 06 i had to like put all my energy into just standing there doing a sdhl, now all the sdhl tricks are simple just because practice. so im not really sure if there is any reason to have to choose one or the other.

anyways the only reason i made this thread was just because i was curious about fox players hands cuz i stubbornly use X because i like to flick the bottom edge of x when i need to SH whole moving quick and i dont want to feel like i waste my time every time i practice techskill

do either SW or lovage use x?

 

[Thanos828]

If you don't use the control stick for SHDL you're missing out

Like man it's so easy

edit: IIRC Lovage uses the control stick for all his short hops.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lemme know when you can do reverse SHDL's with control stick. You know, the useful ones.

 

[kailo34ce]

well reverse shdl is just as easy as any shdl with the joystick but thats beside the point, this thread isnt for flaming people for using controller methods...................................


and id be impressed if lovage did sh with the stick always

 

[Varist]

reverse shdl is just as easy as any shdl with the joystick

OMG, NO IT ISN'T

wtf. how?

 

[kailo34ce]

well ok its not JUST as easy but i mean its as easy as like shield dropping or utilting out of a run, you just need to get a feel for it and memorize it. the difference is walking up a stair then walking up another stair. not that big of a deal. now under pressure idk lol cuz i use X, but in practice its simple once you learn it and spend time practicing it. just remember that anything is possible.

 

[Thanos828]

Reverse SHDL with a stick isn't that hard once you get a feel for it. Admittedly it is easier to do with a button but regardless it's not that bad.

 

[ThatGuy]

I don't understand how you guys pull it off, lol.

I'm practising SHDL with Fox. I don't know what the specific grip for claw is, but I use thumb for C-stick, index for B/A/Y, and middle for Z. I can't move my index finger from Y to B fast enough though. Are my fingers just too slow, or is it anatomically that much harder to move the index fast enough?

 

[ArcNatural]

I don't understand how you guys pull it off, lol.

I'm practising SHDL with Fox. I don't know what the specific grip for claw is, but I use thumb for C-stick, index for B/A/Y, and middle for Z. I can't move my index finger from Y to B fast enough though. Are my fingers just too slow, or is it anatomically that much harder to move the index fast enough?

Doing Index for both jump and B would make that really awkward imo. Javi I believe jumps with middle and uses index for A or B.

I just hold standard and use practically every part of my thumb for Y/B/C-stick. Makes things very easy. Tip of thumb for Y, knuckle joint for B/A, and the base of thumb for c-stick for situations where I don't have time to bring my thumb down.

I find this is useful as it cuts down a lot of unnecessary movement of your hand, which in theory should help you become more precise. This is also where claw benefits because they don't need to move their fingers so much for pressing buttons.

 

[kailo34ce]

Doing Index for both jump and B would make that really awkward imo. Javi I believe jumps with middle and uses index for A or B.

I just hold standard and use practically every part of my thumb for Y/B/C-stick. Makes things very easy. Tip of thumb for Y, knuckle joint for B/A, and the base of thumb for c-stick for situations where I don't have time to bring my thumb down.

I find this is useful as it cuts down a lot of unnecessary movement of your hand, which in theory should help you become more precise. This is also where claw benefits because they don't need to move their fingers so much for pressing buttons.

wow thats crazy dude

I don't understand how you guys pull it off, lol.

I'm practising SHDL with Fox. I don't know what the specific grip for claw is, but I use thumb for C-stick, index for B/A/Y, and middle for Z. I can't move my index finger from Y to B fast enough though. Are my fingers just too slow, or is it anatomically that much harder to move the index fast enough?

hey man dont sweat it, i use X for jump and back in the day i had to stop, hold my breath, and try as hard as i could to shdl.

after a good amount of practicing i am able to do it effortlessly,

i usually leave my cube on and randomly during the day ill practice for 10 minutes at a time and stop like between homework questions and stuff. i think it tends to help because otherwise i wouldnt go through the effort to turn it on at all.

The beauty of Fox is, and melee in general, that you can quickly see improvement in your game as long as you practice wisely.

 

[FoxLisk]

I don't understand how you guys pull it off, lol.

I'm practising SHDL with Fox. I don't know what the specific grip for claw is, but I use thumb for C-stick, index for B/A/Y, and middle for Z. I can't move my index finger from Y to B fast enough though. Are my fingers just too slow, or is it anatomically that much harder to move the index fast enough?

i use middle finger for R/Z, index for Y, and thumb for ABC.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Reverse SHDL with a stick isn't that hard once you get a feel for it. Admittedly it is easier to do with a button but regardless it's not that bad.

if control sticks get too loose it becomes much harder to do shdl with the stick. i think y is a more reliable method to learn. or x i guess if you jump with that, but x sucks.

i use claw for certain things, not much tho.

 

[Thanos828]

I just hold standard and use practically every part of my thumb for Y/B/C-stick. Makes things very easy. Tip of thumb for Y, knuckle joint for B/A, and the base of thumb for c-stick for situations where I don't have time to bring my thumb down.

I find this is useful as it cuts down a lot of unnecessary movement of your hand, which in theory should help you become more precise. This is also where claw benefits because they don't need to move their fingers so much for pressing buttons.

This is exactly how I use my controller. I use my thumbnail on Y for short hops; when I jump my thumb is bent so that it points up, when I use A, B and X I bring the joint down to press the button.

Also Silent Wolf, I learned how to do SHDL with Y shortly after the control stick, so if that control stick problem ever happens I still have an alternative.

For SHDL with Y I just slide my finger in a diagonal motion from Y to B as fast as I can and press B twice

 

[TemPesT-]

i claw strictly when i play peach. makes float canceling really fast easier/more precise for me.

for fox tho, i useevery button, if i'm wavedashing/shining i like to use x/r, but if i'm ever short hopping/shdl i use y, i shield with L, and L cancel with it, but that's mostly just so i can wave dash oos easier ( i suck at same trigger wave dash oos ).

 

[Blanky]

we hung out a lot during APEX and i recorded his hands with my ****ty phone, want me to post?

 

[kailo34ce]

yes please. btw i see you viewing nintendude, you **** dude gl in the future

 

[SoaK]

I use only 3 fingers.

My left thumb for control stick

My right thumb for A, B, Y, C-stick(rarely ever use it)

and My right index for Z and R.

Is this the traditional grip?

 

[kailo34ce]

I use only 3 fingers.

My left thumb for control stick

My right thumb for A, B, Y, C-stick(rarely ever use it)

and My right index for Z and R.

Is this the traditional grip?

yes but i highly suggest incorporating L into your play


i used to use R for shielding, rolling, spotdodge, wavedashing and L-cancel and Z for grab of course(which is a mean button)and after awhile it hurt to touch the controller and i would have bruises on my finger

also i got alot faster after switching to L for L cancel and some wavelands

it also helps your WD OOS game depending on how you use L

 

[Blanky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MeVSjOSo64

there you go guys! sorry for the quality. really old cell phone

 

[kailo34ce]

thanks alot

 

[Blanky]

no problem dude!

 

[Lovage]

ya i use control stick for everything except:
-wavedashes on the ground (fast wavelands i still use stick)
-spamming jump when im recovering
-some nairs

control stick is a lot easier for some things, harder for other things, doesn't really make a difference in the end

but if i could do it all again, i'd learn the game with Y, pretty much just cuz its a lot harder to get full distance approaches when u short hop with the stick

edit: and i use L for everything, including wd oos. sometimes i use R for rolling from the ledge idk why lol

Lemme know when you can do reverse SHDL's with control stick. You know, the useful ones.

wtf LOL, reverse double laser is insanely easy with the stick, prolly one of the first things i ever learned in melee. you just tap up+back and hit b

 

[ThatGuy]

edit: and i use L for everything, including wd oos. sometimes i use R for rolling from the ledge idk why lol

Haha I do this too. I feel that my L button takes enough of a beating as is .

 

[FluxWolf]

Lemme know when you can do reverse SHDL's with control stick. You know, the useful ones.

***** sit down

 

[Zoler]

Lemme know when you can do reverse SHDL's with control stick. You know, the useful ones.

This is really, really easy actually.

 

[Mahie]

This is really, really easy actually.

I concur, I can't SHDL properly with Y anyway.

Also I claw when I want to multishine or LHDB with Falco but that's about it.

 

[SUNG666]

You can still do the same grabs with claw, X+L+A for JC grab same applies for shine grab

 

[kailo34ce]

I concur, I can't SHDL properly with Y anyway.

Also I claw when I want to multishine or LHDB with Falco but that's about it.

unless claw is very comfortable to you i suggest you try to find a technique for double shining with your default grip.

just remember all the real speed is going from the jump to the second shine. you can do it

edit: you get outta here sung!

 

[Strong Badam]

This is really, really easy actually.

Dashing ones?