Ivysaur's bair (not op, but needs to be changed)

[666blaziken]

I know... I know... I am going to sound like a scrub for this, but I want to have ivysaur's bair changed. I don't think that Ivysaur is broken, I just think that she is a little bit toxic. I know that jigglypuff has a bair of similar properties, but there are a couple of differences.
1. Ivysaur's bair has a much wider hitbox
2. Ivysaur's bair can be used near the ledge and hit people attempting to hit people trying to sweet spot the ledge.
3. It is really fast, it has about the same length as charizard's nair, but at least his is slow.
3.5 (get it?) it is faster than jigglypuffs and has 2 hitboxes rather than one, making the move safer.

Like the PMDT's philosophy, I believe that even if things arn't overpowered, there shouldn't be a character that is based off of one or 2 moves. 1 or 2 moves shouldn't make up a character's moveset. That's why I want it changed.

I know that jigglypuff has this issue too, and I somewhat hope jigglypuff gets a slight redesign due to her being kind of one dimensional. But all ivy needs is this one change. Jigglypuff changes can be discussed elsewhere.

Anyways, here is my suggestion: give ivysaur the reverse hitbox so the vines swing the other way (if you are facing left, the vines go counter-clockwise.) It would send the opponent upwards rather than horizontal. Here are the pros on why that would be a better designed move.

1. It leads to a seed bomb, or if there is bad DI, a power whip.
2. It isn't nearly as spammable because the opponent could DI away from it or dodge the next move.
3. at low percentages with spacies, it could lead to some uair and bair juggling.
4. it is not practical near the ledge so it is more likely to be used near the center of the stage, so the opponent has a chance to punish a bad SHUFFLE bair, but at the same time, allows ivy to punish a bad approach.

Overall, if the PMDT has something else in mind, then they should go for it. If anyone else has any ideas, let me know. If you want to argue for ivysaur keeping her spammable/no skill bair, because of fear that she will be less viable (or you just don't like nerfs in general) then go ahead and make your point.

 

[666blaziken]

The knockback cound be around the same as his bair because if it had too little knockback, it could just combo into itself too easily. Or it could have a smaller amount of knockback so fast-fallers can avoid getting combo'd and it gives them an advantage, Iffy decesion.

 

[Dandizzle]

I don't think that Ivysaur is broken, I just think that she is a little bit toxic.

Oh god not this buzzword

 

[Bazkip]

Oh god not this buzzword

Ivysaur used Toxic!

The foe Project M was badly poisoned!

 

[666blaziken]

Guys, I'm serious! do you still want to lose to someone who is shuffling with bair near the ledge? and the hitboxes goes through all the available recovery options?

 

[Dandizzle]

Well you gotta consider there are already the tether nerfs that will affect Ivysaur and she already isn't on par with the current top characters, more so mid tier. She appears to be a character that has tools that make some matchups very good for her, I'll make a comparsion to Marth. They both have good range and a good edgeguard game. This is absolutely horrible for some characters that don't have the movement/projectiles/punish game/recovery/etc. to abuse their shortcomings. A character like Falco, for example has lasers that make Marth and Ivy have to approach so they can't really play their spacing game. Now imagine how easily a character with a even or good matchup against these two now, like Falco, would beat them if bair only hit once, or Marth got his Brawl sword back, along with most of their winning match ups becoming even. This could very easily happen to Ivysaur but it seems crazy to suggest Marth to be nerfed like Ivysaur. And no I'm not saying Marth deserves nerfs or him and Ivy are basically clones just they have some similarities.

Now this leads into another point I have. Characters that are drastically changed in P.M like Ivysaur are way easier to get nerfed than classic Melee characters like Marth. Was 2.6 Bowser really problematic? Sure he had a really good edge game, armor on a lot of his moves and great kill potential but his neutral game was terrible and his recovery was free to any edgeguard. I can't think of any majors he's won or mediocre Bowser mains destroying top level P.M players, I could be wrong but I don't think I'm too far from the truth. You can say this for other P.M characters like Sonic, but to be fair in 2.5 he was actually broken and now he was made really, really good again. Ivysaur can very easily be the next victim of the "nerf it because its new" ideology.

I will admit that Ivysaur is a pretty strong character, but I will use the Marth comparison again. How is what Ivysaur does "toxic" but what Marth does is fine? Marth's fair may be no Ivy bair but he can spam it just as much as Ivy. And you are really really, in a bad spot on the ledge with a Marth above you, or recovering low while Marth is ready to spike you back down.

I'll tell you why, people have played against Marth for over a decade and they know how to exploit his weakness and deal with his strengths. Yes this argument has been used time and time again, and someitmes incorrectly but I feel it perfectly applies to Ivysaur as well. Has counter-Ivy play been developed to the point where further nerfs aside from recovery are warranted? Well there has been a lot of development in countering Ivysaur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5TBFeJU4iQ I don't have the time to look for the best example but tune in to the last match especially towards the end and see what Hungrybox does. You see how slow and methodical he plays? He realizes he can't gimp or go do aerials on shield so easily so he plays Denti's slow,slow game. He eventually wins! And this is from the guy who is one of the lead complainers about gimmicks and other "BS" in P.M! Using Jigglypuff! The main reason why people hate Ivysaur is because she plays so not Melee, using Brawl tech like RAR and generally just taking it slow. And you have to generally match her pace especially if you are not a character like Falco who can set the pace of the match. Nothing Ivysaur does is too much more abusive then again, Marth (besides recovery which is already being fixed next patch) but she does it in a way people generally aren't used to or like playing against. So I would say hold your horses until we see how 3.5 Ivy goes.

And just to sprinkle some more info in here, I do not think it would be the end of the word if Ivy's power was readjusted to her other moves, it's just that I can see that going horribly wrong and I really don't think bair is too problematic. I also do not play Ivysaur, I wrote this because I feel Ivysaur gets too much hate for not much merit and I know I usually can handle Ivysaurs by adjusting my play style accordingly, like pretty much any matchup.

 

[666blaziken]

Well you gotta consider there are already the tether nerfs that will affect Ivysaur and she already isn't on par with the current top characters, more so mid tier. She appears to be a character that has tools that make some matchups very good for her, I'll make a comparsion to Marth. They both have good range and a good edgeguard game. This is absolutely horrible for some characters that don't have the movement/projectiles/punish game/recovery/etc. to abuse their shortcomings. A character like Falco, for example has lasers that make Marth and Ivy have to approach so they can't really play their spacing game. Now imagine how easily a character with a even or good matchup against these two now, like Falco, would beat them if bair only hit once, or Marth got his Brawl sword back, along with most of their winning match ups becoming even. This could very easily happen to Ivysaur but it seems crazy to suggest Marth to be nerfed like Ivysaur. And no I'm not saying Marth deserves nerfs or him and Ivy are basically clones just they have some similarities.

Now this leads into another point I have. Characters that are drastically changed in P.M like Ivysaur are way easier to get nerfed than classic Melee characters like Marth. Was 2.6 Bowser really problematic? Sure he had a really good edge game, armor on a lot of his moves and great kill potential but his neutral game was terrible and his recovery was free to any edgeguard. I can't think of any majors he's won or mediocre Bowser mains destroying top level P.M players, I could be wrong but I don't think I'm too far from the truth. You can say this for other P.M characters like Sonic, but to be fair in 2.5 he was actually broken and now he was made really, really good again. Ivysaur can very easily be the next victim of the "nerf it because its new" ideology.

I will admit that Ivysaur is a pretty strong character, but I will use the Marth comparison again. How is what Ivysaur does "toxic" but what Marth does is fine? Marth's fair may be no Ivy bair but he can spam it just as much as Ivy. And you are really really, in a bad spot on the ledge with a Marth above you, or recovering low while Marth is ready to spike you back down.

I'll tell you why, people have played against Marth for over a decade and they know how to exploit his weakness and deal with his strengths. Yes this argument has been used time and time again, and someitmes incorrectly but I feel it perfectly applies to Ivysaur as well. Has counter-Ivy play been developed to the point where further nerfs aside from recovery are warranted? Well there has been a lot of development in countering Ivysaur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5TBFeJU4iQ I don't have the time to look for the best example but tune in to the last match especially towards the end and see what Hungrybox does. You see how slow and methodical he plays? He realizes he can't gimp or go do aerials on shield so easily so he plays Denti's slow,slow game. He eventually wins! And this is from the guy who is one of the lead complainers about gimmicks and other "BS" in P.M! Using Jigglypuff! The main reason why people hate Ivysaur is because she plays so not Melee, using Brawl tech like RAR and generally just taking it slow. And you have to generally match her pace especially if you are not a character like Falco who can set the pace of the match. Nothing Ivysaur does is too much more abusive then again, Marth (besides recovery which is already being fixed next patch) but she does it in a way people generally aren't used to or like playing against. So I would say hold your horses until we see how 3.5 Ivy goes.

And just to sprinkle some more info in here, I do not think it would be the end of the word if Ivy's power was readjusted to her other moves, it's just that I can see that going horribly wrong and I really don't think bair is too problematic. I also do not play Ivysaur, I wrote this because I feel Ivysaur gets too much hate for not much merit and I know I usually can handle Ivysaurs by adjusting my play style accordingly, like pretty much any matchup.

I see your point, and funny enough, I hate going against marth in melee as well, up to the point where I have to use sheik as a counterpick. However, marth is vastly different than ivysaur, in a way that marth is less toxic. Marth doesn't have any projectiles, like ivysaur, he is forced to fully commit if he wants to kill early, and his f-smash is his one signiture kill move. Ivysaur has a razor leaf that can lead to grabs, and possibly an early kill with power whip around 40%-50% (with bad DI), a seed bomb that suprises opponents from above, a fair that can take down opponents that stall on the ledge, a solarbeam, and good OOS options. I admire my friends's Ivysaur when he sets me up for a 0-death combo using a combination of nair, dair, dthrow, and up B, and it frustrates me when he decides not to put any effort and just SHUFFL bair untill I reach the edge, and sit there until I die. There are so many options for ivysaur, and none of them would be used because all you need is this one move.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Get rid of killing bair and nerf dtilt. Bring back double razor leaf and tripping Dsmash. Lolz~

 

[666blaziken]

Dtilt is annoying, but it can be crouch cancelled. But an annyoing attack regardless. I would just Dash Dance untill I get up close and personal.

 

[Swann]

If you're getting hit by razor leaf->grab in 3.02, you're doing something wrong.

 

[Dandizzle]

If you're getting hit by razor leaf->grab in 3.02, you're doing something wrong.

Yup.

However, marth is vastly different than ivysaur, in a way that marth is less toxic.

You are the right on the first part but I can't really agree on the second. Also "toxic"...ack.

Marth doesn't have any projectiles, like ivysaur, he is forced to fully commit if he wants to kill early, and his f-smash is his one signiture kill move. Ivysaur has a razor leaf that can lead to grabs...

Marth has more than Fsmash to kill Fsmash it's just that insanely powerful. Upitlt, Dair spikes, and most tippered moves will kill at a high enough percent while not preferred still can kill when you can't get the Fsmash. Also her "projectile" is slow as hell and maybe goes a foot or two in front of her.

....and possibly an early kill with power whip around 40%-50% (with bad DI)

Well yea it's pretty strong and honestly more worth of complaints than bair, yet still not TAXIC IMO. With chaingrabs and super guarenteed followups from throws Up-B from Dthrow or Upthrow isn't that crazy. And in other situations I don't really see it has a problem either, the only thing that will hit straight above Ivy from afar is seedbomb but its pretty laggy and is a projectile. Above her diagonally is just a terrible place to be, and pretty much every character has one of these zones.

...a seed bomb that suprises opponents from above, a fair that can take down opponents that stall on the ledge, a solarbeam,...

Like I said before seed bomb is a projectile and is pretty laggy, pretty easily handled. This comment about fair, doesn't really everyone have this? Unless I am misunderstand what you are saying, sure the fair hitbox hits pretty low but it's not like its a specific strength of Ivy to hit people who are ledgestalling. And solarbeam not only takes forever to get and usually comes from you messing up and letting her land sweepotted bulb-moves (I will admit getting charge off of waddles, shyguys, etc. is pretty lame.) it has a decent startup and goes right where you shouldn't be, above her diagonally.

...good OOS options.

Well yea, a defensive character who can't really set the pace of the match by rushing in usually needs good OOS options to handle the pressure. Most defensive characters that are defensive without a decent move to throw OOS suck. Its not like her shield is huge either.

I admire my friends's Ivysaur when he sets me up for a 0-death combo using a combination of nair, dair, dthrow, and up B, and it frustrates me when he decides not to put any effort and just SHUFFL bair untill I reach the edge, and sit there until I die. There are so many options for ivysaur, and none of them would be used because all you need is this one move.

You just claimed all this stuff Ivysaur has but you say its irrelevant because of Bairs strength. But not only is spamming Bair predictable it doesn't do everything for you. If you are spamming Bair in neutral you are just spacing them out, you aren't getting any solar beam charge, not many extended punishes unless the opponent does something really dumb, and you are facing the other way so when the enemy gets past it you are more limited in your options to react. Watch pretty much any top level Ivy and there won't just spam Bair unless they know who they are versing doesn't realize how to deal with it. Which leads me to another point, you said your friend puts no effort into shuffling Bair, but are you putting enough effort into dealing with Bair? Because it can be dealt with, dash/wavedash up and shield, mix up your ledge options, or try to go around Ivysaur. It's not a "wall" its an aerial that will lead into lag when its being L-canceled and it'll take jumpsquat plus the startup frames to get another out. Its not just "safe."

EDIT: Messed up some quote stuff

 

[666blaziken]

Yup.

You are the right on the first part but I can't really agree on the second. Also "toxic"...ack.
Marth has more than Fsmash to kill Fsmash it's just that insanely powerful. Upitlt, Dair spikes, and most tippered moves will kill at a high enough percent while not preferred still can kill when you can't get the Fsmash. Also her "projectile" is slow as hell and maybe goes a foot or two in front of her.
Well yea it's pretty strong and honestly more worth of complaints than bair, yet still not TAXIC IMO. With chaingrabs and super guarenteed followups from throws Up-B from Dthrow or Upthrow isn't that crazy. And in other situations I don't really see it has a problem either, the only thing that will hit straight above Ivy from afar is seedbomb but its pretty laggy and is a projectile. Above her diagonally is just a terrible place to be, and pretty much every character has one of these zones.
Like I said before seed bomb is a projectile and is pretty laggy, pretty easily handled. This comment about fair, doesn't really everyone have this? Unless I am misunderstand what you are saying, sure the fair hitbox hits pretty low but it's not like its a specific strength of Ivy to hit people who are ledgestalling. And solarbeam not only takes forever to get and usually comes from you messing up and letting her land sweepotted bulb-moves (I will admit getting charge off of waddles, shyguys, etc. is pretty lame.) it has a decent startup and goes right where you shouldn't be, above her diagonally.
Well yea, a defensive character who can't really set the pace of the match by rushing in usually needs good OOS options to handle the pressure. Most defensive characters that are defensive without a decent move to throw OOS suck. Its not like her shield is huge either. You just claimed all this stuff Ivysaur has but you say its irrelevant because of Bairs strength. But not only is spamming Bair predictable it doesn't do everything for you. If you are spamming Bair in neutral you are just spacing them out, you aren't getting any solar beam charge, not many extended punishes unless the opponent does something really dumb, and you are facing the other way so when the enemy gets past it you are more limited in your options to react. Watch pretty much any top level Ivy and there won't just spam Bair unless they know who they are versing doesn't realize how to deal with it. Which leads me to another point, you said your friend puts no effort into shuffling Bair, but are you putting enough effort into dealing with Bair? Because it can be dealt with, dash/wavedash up and shield, mix up your ledge options, or try to go around Ivysaur. It's not a "wall" its an aerial that will lead into lag when its being L-canceled and it'll take jumpsquat plus the startup frames to get another out. Its not just "safe."

EDIT: Messed up some quote stuff

I wasn't complaining about any of ivysaur's other moves, my point was that why would she need a bair that can edgeguard really easily when she already has a great mix-up game. When I am talking about Ivysaur spamming bair, I am already off the ledge and trying to recover. Unless I have a tether, it is really hard to recover because the vine in Ivysaur's bair can cover the ledge as well as right next to her and above her. With recoveries being nerfed in the next patch, I am worried that the bair will be hard to deal with then it currently is.

 

[TreK]

-Bair being a two hit move is actually a disadvantage of this move. On the floor, you can CC the first hit and then shieldgrab the second. In the air, unless Ivy is having a nearly perfect trajectory, or you're playing a fatty, you can SDI out of the move and actually avoid getting hit by the second hit. I've been saying this for months, Ivy's metagame in the future is going to be about learning how to only hit with the second hit of bair despite it being much slower than hitting with both hits.
-The PMBR already tested having a higher angle on bair, in 2.6b. Bair linked into itself, was less vulnerable to CC, set up every killmove in Ivysaur's book, and was even more "toxic" than it is now imo. Right now, Bair is a wonderful killmove, especially when edgeguarding, but it doesn't combo into anything, and that's a pretty big drawback. You won't see competent Ivysaurs spamming bairs in the neutral game unless you're above 100%, because there's simply always going to be a vastly more rewarding option.
-It's true that Ivysaur currently functions as a better Jigglypuff, but I don't think that Jigglypuff is currently a well designed character to begin with. In Melee, she functions because she is able to beat fast fallers, and the metagame happens to be dominated by fast fallers. This is not the case in PM. What I'm trying to communicate here is that Ivysaur is as strong as Jigglypuff should be, and that nobody should be as weak as Jigglypuff currently is.

In 3.5, everyone, including characters with a much more potent neutral game, will be able to edgeguard you as hard as Ivysaur currently can. The only piece of advice I can give you is, keep trying until you beat your friend's Ivysaur consistently. It's going to help you lot when 3.5 comes around.

 

[CyberZixx]

Ivy >> marth in this game. I don't think they are a good comparison if you are trying to prove that Ivy is fine. That said, I don't mind Ivy at all, but would not complain if bair was toned down. The move does have amazing range, long lasting, not too much lag and a semi spike angle. This move badly messes up some characters.

 

[Dandizzle]

I only used the comparison because they both have range and people hated/hate Marth without enough experience against him. Can someone actually read what I actually write before they say something? When did I ever state my opinion on the overall viability of Marth in comparison to Ivysaur? I talked about certain moves and interactions similar between the two not ermagerd but marf has long sword so not as gud.

 

[666blaziken]

-Bair being a two hit move is actually a disadvantage of this move. On the floor, you can CC the first hit and then shieldgrab the second. In the air, unless Ivy is having a nearly perfect trajectory, or you're playing a fatty, you can SDI out of the move and actually avoid getting hit by the second hit. I've been saying this for months, Ivy's metagame in the future is going to be about learning how to only hit with the second hit of bair despite it being much slower than hitting with both hits.
-The PMBR already tested having a higher angle on bair, in 2.6b. Bair linked into itself, was less vulnerable to CC, set up every killmove in Ivysaur's book, and was even more "toxic" than it is now imo. Right now, Bair is a wonderful killmove, especially when edgeguarding, but it doesn't combo into anything, and that's a pretty big drawback. You won't see competent Ivysaurs spamming bairs in the neutral game unless you're above 100%, because there's simply always going to be a vastly more rewarding option.
-It's true that Ivysaur currently functions as a better Jigglypuff, but I don't think that Jigglypuff is currently a well designed character to begin with. In Melee, she functions because she is able to beat fast fallers, and the metagame happens to be dominated by fast fallers. This is not the case in PM. What I'm trying to communicate here is that Ivysaur is as strong as Jigglypuff should be, and that nobody should be as weak as Jigglypuff currently is.

In 3.5, everyone, including characters with a much more potent neutral game, will be able to edgeguard you as hard as Ivysaur currently can. The only piece of advice I can give you is, keep trying until you beat your friend's Ivysaur consistently. It's going to help you lot when 3.5 comes around.

Ok, I will try out SDI out of ivy's first hit, if this works consistantly for me, then maybe a nerf isn't needed.

 

[666blaziken]

-Bair being a two hit move is actually a disadvantage of this move. On the floor, you can CC the first hit and then shieldgrab the second. In the air, unless Ivy is having a nearly perfect trajectory, or you're playing a fatty, you can SDI out of the move and actually avoid getting hit by the second hit. I've been saying this for months, Ivy's metagame in the future is going to be about learning how to only hit with the second hit of bair despite it being much slower than hitting with both hits.
-The PMBR already tested having a higher angle on bair, in 2.6b. Bair linked into itself, was less vulnerable to CC, set up every killmove in Ivysaur's book, and was even more "toxic" than it is now imo. Right now, Bair is a wonderful killmove, especially when edgeguarding, but it doesn't combo into anything, and that's a pretty big drawback. You won't see competent Ivysaurs spamming bairs in the neutral game unless you're above 100%, because there's simply always going to be a vastly more rewarding option.
-It's true that Ivysaur currently functions as a better Jigglypuff, but I don't think that Jigglypuff is currently a well designed character to begin with. In Melee, she functions because she is able to beat fast fallers, and the metagame happens to be dominated by fast fallers. This is not the case in PM. What I'm trying to communicate here is that Ivysaur is as strong as Jigglypuff should be, and that nobody should be as weak as Jigglypuff currently is.

In 3.5, everyone, including characters with a much more potent neutral game, will be able to edgeguard you as hard as Ivysaur currently can. The only piece of advice I can give you is, keep trying until you beat your friend's Ivysaur consistently. It's going to help you lot when 3.5 comes around.

After testing out against Ivysaur, I can in fact SDI, however, it only works if I am not doing a recovery, and if I am getting hit on the tip. At least when going against fox, his legs arn't nearly as long as the vines so it's easier to SDI out of his uair than Ivy's bair. If ivy is moving towards me, I am kind of screwed. Oh, and if I have a recovery that goes in a straight line and is attacking like wolf's uair or pikachu's quick attack, I can't SDI out of those either. Since PMDT already tried out my idea, I would suggest just shortening ivy's bair up to puff's bair or even less because of the amount of knockback on it. If they don't change this, I will keep playing Project M; I just really don't like going against Ivysaur.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Is Ivysaurs Bair even punishable in the neutral with a ranged attack? In was playing someone yesterday and it seemed like he was able to short hop bair and pull back safely, every time i went in to punish he was already on the ground and able top react.

 

[TreK]

It's very unsafe on shield, what makes it safe is the range. If you can trick the Ivysaur into mis-spacing it you can shield grab it with every character in the game. You can also just dash dance to make it whiff, and still be in a position from which you can still reach Ivysaur before she's able to act out of it. Finally, even if it does hit you, if you're on the ground, you can just press and hold down on your control stick to avoid getting sent flying offstage with it. It might require you to techroll though.

Generally speaking this is not a move that will be spammed in the neutral, unless you're at a percentage where it can kill.

 

[666blaziken]

It's very unsafe on shield, what makes it safe is the range. If you can trick the Ivysaur into mis-spacing it you can shield grab it with every character in the game. You can also just dash dance to make it whiff, and still be in a position from which you can still reach Ivysaur before she's able to act out of it. Finally, even if it does hit you, if you're on the ground, you can just press and hold down on your control stick to avoid getting sent flying offstage with it. It might require you to techroll though.

Generally speaking this is not a move that will be spammed in the neutral, unless you're at a percentage where it can kill.

I think it's hard to punish ivy's bair. If ivy only get's you with the very tip of the bair, then she has enough time to do a dsmash and throw you off. But one thing I found is that if you are shielding a lot, ivy can jump and do a dair and then escape with a bair. I need to practice more against Ivysaur players. I know that Ivysaur has enough weaknesses to prevent her from being OP, so I need to work on punishing her, because overall, she feels like a big "nope!" to the majority of the cast.

 

[Dandizzle]

There's a lot bigger nope's to characters in this game now then Ivy, she is crazy strong until you get to pretty high levels of play then she's just good. It just seems stupid to nerf Ivy more than tether stuff when she isn't even the cream of OP crop. Just see how 3.5 works out.