It's Nerf Or Nothin'!! (Long read)

[Dragonbreath]

The general feel I'm getting from E-For-All goers (I'm not one of them, the lucky asshats.) is that Fox, despite having such tournament-popular moves as his Up-Smash and his shine nerfed, is still an effective character to use. Fox used to be up near the top of the top tier, so much so that it was almost impossible to play against him with anyone besides Sheik or the like. For the sake of discussion, let's assume that I'm correct on this for the time being.

Next to consider is that Fox was the only God-Tier character available at the demo. So I can only speculate on this next point. But since he's had his considerable advantages over the rest of the cast reduced in the name of even play, it seems (to me at least) that the rest of the top-tiers are going to get the same treatment.

It just makes sense (to me), looking at the other unanimous agreements we've received from the demo. The game moves slower. Wavedashing is gone. Kills happen at higher percentages. And in other updates, too. Wi-Fi is basically an online Vs. mode and the Single-player modes are getting a lot more attention this time around.

The trend I'm seeing is that Sakurai's trying to make this game less about competition and more about having fun in general. So, following that logic so far, it would seem appropriate for certain characters like Sheik and Captain Falcon are going to get nerfed, at least for moves like Falcon's F-air, which would be described as overpowering by a lot of people, myself included.

Personally, I see this as a good thing for competition and tournament play. Without Fox and the like overpowering everyone else, the full depth of all the other characters can be realized, making Brawl's tourney scene more unpredictable and exciting than Melee's. And if a skilled Fox main is truly skilled, he or she should be able to keep wining with that skill. If that player was not as skilled and had only won because of the selection of the character. . .Well, that player shouldn't really be winning tournaments, anyway.

I realize that the loss of Falcon's Fatali-Knee would be like. . .well. . .a fatali-knee to the nuts for a lot of C.Falcon mains, but from the perspective of the game it general, it unlocks the depth of all the other, less appreciated characters. For example, my style of playing in melee uses a lot of rolling dodges. For that reason, I like to use Captain Falcon. But whenever I win, it's usually with the fataliknee, which makes maining Falcon a lot less fun for me. Likewise with Fox and his Up-Smash. In fact, I've lately found myself favoring Mario because he has more variety in his kill-moves. But my game's been suffering because of that, which makes me a sad Frankenstein. (You thought I was gonna say panda.)

Long story short: The evidence I see points towards all of the tourney faves being less overwhelming this time around. And I, a Falcon/Fox main, am looking forward to the challenge.

Dsicuss.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I also main falcon and fox.

I see what you're saying

But I would argue that fox and falcon are incredibly difficult to play vs skilled players, as one mistake with either of them can mean death. Smash DI is essential and if you dont have it with fox or falcon thats really precious time you're losing.

In brawl though, totally new game. Lets dive into it and see what happens. Demo = nothing compared to release.

 

[geemann2236]

I dislike Fox, I like Falco though. Falco better not be nerfed, and he better be in the game period, lol.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I dislike Fox, I like Falco though. Falco better not be nerfed, and he better be in the game period, lol.

That's if Falco makes it in the game with the same exact moveset he had in Melee. I doubt that they would leave him to be a clone.

 

[Kittah4]

I only hope Sakurai nerfs the characters more fairly in Melee to Brawl than Smash 64 to Melee. Kirby and Ness got injected with so much nerf-fluid that it's ridiculous, for instance. Those yoyo attacks were awful. AWFUL.

 

[Dragonbreath]

In brawl though, totally new game. Lets dive into it and see what happens. Demo = nothing compared to release.

Good point, but can we agree that the demo and the nature of Online play point towards a more casual (And therefore, less tier-defined) Method of play?

I dislike Fox, I like Falco though. Falco better not be nerfed, and he better be in the game period, lol.

The reason you don't want Falco nerfed is because you enjoy winning as him. But do you find that you generally win with using the same moves and if that's the case, do you think you'd have more fun winning with a wider variety of techniques? I know I would.

 

[Micahc]

We'll play for a few weeks thinking all the characters are balanced, and then we'll find their not. You can't fight that some characters are gonna be better than others, and you can't fight that if one kill move gets taken away than we're gonna find another

 

[BigRick]

I don't like nerfs.

I'd rather see every1 be broken... makes games more exciting

Oh well, let's work on breaking Brawl

 

[Metalknux]

I don't care what else happens, but they better not nerf the knee.

 

[Hydde]

I think the knee will be there.

With all this new pyshics and lack of some old moves.. the one i truly see being nerfed automatically , is Marth...

with the new DI is F-air comboscan be avoided easily... and those were one of his main setting moves..

Just sheik needs some nerf and thats it...

 

[Red Exodus]

I agreed with you up until you said Mario has a variety on kill moves. You have it all wrong, Mario doesn't have many KO moves at all, as a matter of fact, he wins for being one of the most KO ******** characters around.

I know, I main him.

 

[Lemon Drop]

Would be nice to see some more characters being played more often.

 

[AtticusFinch]

I agreed with you up until you said Mario has a variety on kill moves. You have it all wrong, Mario doesn't have many KO moves at all, as a matter of fact, he wins for being one of the most KO ******** characters around.

I know, I main him.

I actually laugh aloud when I read KO ******** XD

I agree with this thread, I mean, Fox got nurfed prettie bad, so the other god teirs have something to fear ^^

 

[Tryptomine]

I don't like nerfs.

I'd rather see every1 be broken... makes games more exciting

Oh well, let's work on breaking Brawl

Do you actually think about what you're saying, or does it just kind of spew out?

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Frankenstein, I completely agree. I mean, all the smashers in my community all play a number of characters. Sure, we can totally **** with Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth, but all the unpopular characters also make the game so much more fun. Using characters that you don't usually see adds more of a mental aspect to the game than already needed.

In Brawl, seeing as the demo characters are alot more balanced, I predict we'll be seeing alot more variety at tournaments, making the game competitive and amazingly fun. I agree, playing at a competitive level IS fun, but playing with the lower-tier characters is also fun. With Brawl, I believe we'll be getting the best of both worlds. Sure some charaters will suffer, but it's a totally different game than Melee. If you want Fox to still ****, and Zelda's Down Special to still be broken, then pop in your Melee disk, because Brawl and Melee are worlds apart.

 

[max32090]

I don't care what else happens, but they better not nerf the knee.

if anything, falcon will knee the nerf.

 

[Johnknight1]

Well I must say I agree with the first post, and Tnga makes a intresting point as well, as well as EPF (though I think he'll still have some moves he had in Melee, but I'm unsure on the whole clone deal as of now).

I think Mario will probably be nerfed a bit from the demo, Donkey Kong beecomes stronger, etc. Hopefully there were some Nintendo people stalking some of the better smashers at E for All. I think that the E for All demo could have not just been a showcase to show off the game, but to see how the game works in general, tiers, moves, etc.

In Melee origianlly Bowser was suppose to be a good character, but we all know he ended out a bottom tier. Anyways, that happened because those idiot n00bish scrubs at IGN (ya, probably the ones who did Peach's fAir and fell to death 6 times in a row) said he was overpowered with the super armor. In other words, Nintendo is testing Brawl on scrubs (IGN), loud annoying women ("PRESS THE ONE BUTTON!", and "GRAB THE BALL(s)!"), casual players, competitve players, and some of the best. I think this demo could have very well have been a test drive, and if anything, it's only going to get better from here.

 

[Lemon Drop]

Anyways, that happened because those idiot n00bish scrubs at IGN (ya, probably the ones who did Peach's fAir and fell to death 6 times in a row) said he was overpowered with the super armor. In other words, Nintendo is testing Brawl on scrubs (IGN), loud annoying women ("PRESS THE ONE BUTTON!", and "GRAB THE BALL(s)!"), casual players, competitve players, and some of the best. I think this demo could have very well have been a test drive, and if anything, it's only going to get better from here.

It pisses me off that people can be so horrible at games... Especially when your payed to do it. I remember gamespot reviewed Kid Icarus for the Wii (VC) and said it was to hard... I mean come on! THat game was easy...

 

[Tobi-]

Having only competitive players majorly buy play/buy the game loses money on nintendo's part. However, if they made the game user-freindly to everyone, they'll receive MUCH more money.

It's like using a very advance program, or using a basic program with the same functions, except..it's very broad. advance tech's just narrow it, and makes it better for the few who can be advance.

 

[BigRick]

It pisses me off that people can be so horrible at games... Especially when your payed to do it. I remember gamespot reviewed Kid Icarus for the Wii (VC) and said it was to hard... I mean come on! THat game was easy...

GAmespot are a bunch of noobs... seriously

they're good at writing... not good at games

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Good point, but can we agree that the demo and the nature of Online play point towards a more casual (And therefore, less tier-defined) Method of play?

For sure. Save the real test of skill for tournaments where people meet in person, like it always has been. Technology or not theres always lag, server downtimes, and smashing in person allows a lot better comunication between players and its wayyy cooler, parties, friends... why stay at home if there are people out there to have a smashfest with?

But for online, keep it relaxed for the love of god, and dont whine about losing, just check out why you lost and move on. thats my attitude.

 

[Frigid_Aztec]

The Knee stays, that subject can end now.

Anyways, I'm a Bowser main, and apparently he has gotten some better treatment this time around (although it WAS only a 4 day demo). As long as mah boozer is upgraded some, then all you fancy tiers can do w/e you want

 

[Jammer]

Can someone tell me if Fox was significantly weaker than the other characters at E for All?

If it was an even match between all the characters, old and new included, then that is my dream come true. Of course, the demo will be different from the release and there wasn't much time to practice at the demo.

If they nerfed Fox just the right amount, I will be very happy. Same with all the other top and high tier characters.

It is, of course, a very finely tuned process, and extremely difficult to get right, especially in the face of pro players who will do their best to break the game.

Also, that wasn't a long read at all, DragonBreath. It was a bit above average as far as thread starters go, but it wasn't bad at all.

 

[thesage]

I find Kid Icarus hard... >.> It's too boring sitting there and waitiing for all the enemies to pass by.

I hope they don't nerf anybody as bad as they did Kirby and Ness. That much ner***e is stupid. From what I've read and seen they've nerfed Fox and Peach enough. I wish they wouldn't nerf anybody though. I'd prefer having everyone broken. Would you prefer to have all your characters as good as Fox or as Mewtwo?

 

[Tobi-]

I find Kid Icarus hard... >.> It's too boring sitting there and waitiing for all the enemies to pass by.

I hope they don't nerf anybody as bad as they did Kirby and Ness. That much ner***e is stupid. From what I've read and seen they've nerfed Fox and Peach enough. I wish they wouldn't nerf anybody though. I'd prefer having everyone broken. Would you prefer to have all your characters as good as Fox or as Mewtwo?

everyone couldnt be as good as fox or mewtwo. they were only they good, because they were broken. but i sorta see what your saying. you want all characters to be broken in some way that makes them insanely good. that couldnt work because some character would just have more powerful moves. Have you seen Captain Falcon combo Knee videos? Man, they are pretty sick. The Knee KO's most at 40-60%.

kirby needed to be nerfed from SSB64 to Melee.. Ness, I'm not sure about.

 

[thesage]

everyone couldnt be as good as fox or mewtwo. they were only they good, because they were broken. but i sorta see what your saying. you want all characters to be broken in some way that makes them insanely good. that couldnt work because some character would just have more powerful moves. Have you seen Captain Falcon combo Knee videos? Man, they are pretty sick. The Knee KO's most at 40-60%.

kirby needed to be nerfed from SSB64 to Melee.. Ness, I'm not sure about.

Ness needed to be Nerfed, but not so much as Kirby:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H5BaT8C6VAM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=m4ymnabzRLI

And knee does not KO at 60% damage, you have to be DI ******** in order for that to happen. I play Ness, I've played against good CF's like G-reg. CF is not as broken as you're making him out to be.

 

[harpuia190]

I agree, i main peach who is pretty high up tier wise,
but recently i've been trying to learn bowser and i must admit it's awesome to learn him

 

[Red Exodus]

For sure. Save the real test of skill for tournaments where people meet in person, like it always has been. Technology or not theres always lag, server downtimes, and smashing in person allows a lot better comunication between players and its wayyy cooler, parties, friends... why stay at home if there are people out there to have a smashfest with?

But for online, keep it relaxed for the love of god, and dont whine about losing, just check out why you lost and move on. thats my attitude.

^^QFT

Today I played against a guy from Sweden that uses this site and it was awesome to see someone with more skill than most of the people I normally play against. It's impossible for me to describe the awesomeness but I realy envy you guys in America/Canada that get to do this all the time.

 

[Takalth]

The trend I'm seeing is that Sakurai's trying to make this game less about competition and more about having fun in general. So, following that logic so far, it would seem appropriate for certain characters like Sheik and Captain Falcon are going to get nerfed, at least for moves like Falcon's F-air, which would be described as overpowering by a lot of people, myself included.

The truth is, nerfing the top tier is catering far more to competitive than casual fun. Tournament players don't rejoice in the tier list and want to keep it, they simply recognize that it's there and use it. If Sakurai was ignoring the competitive scene and just focusing on the casuals, there would be no real need to nerf Fox, Falco, and other top characters because the tier list doesn't have much effect on casual games, and balancing is one of the most difficult parts of game design.

Most of what I heard from E for All gives me hope that Sakurai is thinking about both crowds. Improving balance (and in my opinion, the new L-cancel) serve to make the game deeper and more appealing to competitive players, while the variety of wacky items and stages, as well as maintaining simplicity for basic gameplay, appeal to the casuals.

 

[error_alt_delete]

The general feel I'm getting from E-For-All goers (I'm not one of them, the lucky asshats.) is that Fox, despite having such tournament-popular moves as his Up-Smash and his shine nerfed, is still an effective character to use. Fox used to be up near the top of the top tier, so much so that it was almost impossible to play against him with anyone besides Sheik or the like. For the sake of discussion, let's assume that I'm correct on this for the time being.

Next to consider is that Fox was the only God-Tier character available at the demo. So I can only speculate on this next point. But since he's had his considerable advantages over the rest of the cast reduced in the name of even play, it seems (to me at least) that the rest of the top-tiers are going to get the same treatment.

It just makes sense (to me), looking at the other unanimous agreements we've received from the demo. The game moves slower. Wavedashing is gone. Kills happen at higher percentages. And in other updates, too. Wi-Fi is basically an online Vs. mode and the Single-player modes are getting a lot more attention this time around.

The trend I'm seeing is that Sakurai's trying to make this game less about competition and more about having fun in general. So, following that logic so far, it would seem appropriate for certain characters like Sheik and Captain Falcon are going to get nerfed, at least for moves like Falcon's F-air, which would be described as overpowering by a lot of people, myself included.

Personally, I see this as a good thing for competition and tournament play. Without Fox and the like overpowering everyone else, the full depth of all the other characters can be realized, making Brawl's tourney scene more unpredictable and exciting than Melee's. And if a skilled Fox main is truly skilled, he or she should be able to keep wining with that skill. If that player was not as skilled and had only won because of the selection of the character. . .Well, that player shouldn't really be winning tournaments, anyway.

I realize that the loss of Falcon's Fatali-Knee would be like. . .well. . .a fatali-knee to the nuts for a lot of C.Falcon mains, but from the perspective of the game it general, it unlocks the depth of all the other, less appreciated characters. For example, my style of playing in melee uses a lot of rolling dodges. For that reason, I like to use Captain Falcon. But whenever I win, it's usually with the fataliknee, which makes maining Falcon a lot less fun for me. Likewise with Fox and his Up-Smash. In fact, I've lately found myself favoring Mario because he has more variety in his kill-moves. But my game's been suffering because of that, which makes me a sad Frankenstein. (You thought I was gonna say panda.)

Long story short: The evidence I see points towards all of the tourney faves being less overwhelming this time around. And I, a Falcon/Fox main, am looking forward to the challenge.

Dsicuss.

you make me a happy panda, I am glad to see some ligoc and reasoning behind this view. I was personaly hoping that, since I can finally get into the tourny scene through brawl, that I could use any character I enjoyed or was good with and have a fair chance.

 

[Dragonbreath]

For sure. Save the real test of skill for tournaments where people meet in person, like it always has been. Technology or not theres always lag, server downtimes, and smashing in person allows a lot better comunication between players and its wayyy cooler, parties, friends... why stay at home if there are people out there to have a smashfest with?

But for online, keep it relaxed for the love of god, and dont whine about losing, just check out why you lost and move on. thats my attitude.

That's the ticket. If Sakurai does something about the tier stigma, it'll take away the 'You only won because you're playing as (God tier guy)' argument from petulant losers and make the entire online community more bearable for everyone. (Not that they'll have a lot of opportunity to whine about it, but still. . .)

I suppose the biggest difference between online play and tournament play is the anonymity. If you tried cussing out the guy who just four-stocked you in real life, the administrators will force you to leave. But online, people can cuss their lungs out. And more often than not, they do.

*Sigh. . .* Don't they teach basic manners in kindergarten anymore?

 

[Sandwich]

And so the day comes when Kirby fourstocks Snake.

...Not a very long read, but I see where you're getting your idea.