Israel vs. Palestine (DWYP-safe)

[Digital Watches]

One of the more potent ongoing crises in the middle east of the past fifty years is the struggle between the relatively new nation of Israel and the arabic people fighting for the same land, called Palestine.

Israel is largely Jewish, and has quickly become a military power in the middle east. The Zionist movement, dedicated to the establishment of a Jewish state, existed since the late 19th century, but gained widespread support after the holocaust of World War 2. The British Empire effectively gave them permission to move in in 1947, and Israel declared independence in 1948.

But there was, of course, a problem. The Palestinians, the group of arabs that had inhabited that land prior to it being claimed by Israel, were not happy with the decision. This sparked a conflict that is ongoing, with frequent attacks on both sides, ranging from radical groups attacking to full-blown military action. Israel considers those Palestinians who choose to fight them to be terrorists. The Palestinians consider Israel's military actions tantamount to a hostile invading force. At present, two major areas remain in conflict: The Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The City of Jerusalem is also in dispute.

So the question is: How should this be resolved? One could see this as Israel exerting force and exploiting sympathy to expel a group of people from their land. Then again, the case is also often made that after seemingly endless persecution of the Jewish people, it's necessary for them to have a nation to call their own. Should a Palestinian state be established? Should Israel be allowed to remain a sovereign nation? If both, how should the disputed territories be handled?

 

[Zephyr]

I guess I'll post.

The Jewish people have been persecuted since the beginning of their establishment and kicked out of almost every single country in the world. This is not a joke. If you track their history, you'll see that they have effectively been a migrating community of people who share the same religious beliefs. They have been a largely docile people as a whole and done nothing to merit this kind of attention. Their religion encourages this and discourages violence of any sort toward others.

The Palestinian Liberation Organization, however, is diametrically opposite to the Jewish people and intends to take their homeland back by force. They engage in illegal activities and were once considered the most well-funded terrorist organization on the planet. They have an annual income of $1.5-$2 billion from "donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc." This was in a report from the UK National Criminal Intelligence Service.

They are also very flimsy about their opinion of what to do with Jerusalem.

"Palestinians believe that Jerusalem should be a shared, open city; two capitals for two states." -- Faisal Husseini, senior PLO representative in Israel, 3 July 2000

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion... We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem." -- Yasser Arafat, Chairman of the PLO (in front of an Arab audience in Stockholm in 1996)

Is that so? Apparently the PLO's objectives change drastically when they are in front of non-Arab audiences. They lie without blinking to the world and then turn to Palestinian Arabs to convince them to take over all of Jerusalem, in direct contrast of what they say to the UN.

"If Israel wants to leave the Gaza Strip, then it should do so. This means that the Palestinian resistance has forced it to leave. But the resistance will continue. Let the Gaza Strip be South Vietnam. We will use all available methods to liberate North Vietnam."

These are violent people by their very religion. Jihad is known as the sixth pillar of Islam and literally means "struggle". Usually, this is through military means. If the Israelites gave the Palestinians the Gaza Strip, it would solve nothing and be tantamount to the policy of appeasement during the pre-WWII era. We all know where that led us. If the Palestinians are given the Gaza Strip, they will not be content. They will push on and not stop until Israel as a state is completely destroyed and they replace the flags on Jerusalem with those of Palestine. People such as this should not be allowed to engage in this sort of violence uncontested. Israel should remain as it is: Israel. The Jews deserve a land to call their own. However, the Palestinians and Jews will not compromise since they both believe that the land of Israel is respectively theirs by divine right.

A Palestinian state would be fine. Elsewhere.

 

[Digital Watches]

Regardless of any docile history the Jewish people as a whole may have, I find it appaling that the violent and illegal means used by the current Israeli state are being downplayed, justified, or outright ignored.

For example: the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip are considered to be occupied territories by most of the world, but Israel does not treat them as such. They have made large civilian settlements in these areas, clealy violating the fourth Geneva Convention, which states, in article 49:
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."* This not only forces Palestinian civilians off of their land, but also, given their convenient consideration for the needs of the families they've moved there, seems to be a strategic manner in which they intend to annex the land. The UN have already asked them to adhere to international law^, but Israel continues to commit these war crimes.

Also, the view you have given of the Palestinians is incredibly skewed. I would first ask where you have obtained these quotes that you give. But even taking those into account, it is clear that the PLO is quite divided. Yes, its original purpose was to "destroy the state of Israel," and some members the PLO may consider this to still be their goal, but many within the organization are now moving for a solution that leaves Israel standing while creating a neighboring sovereign Palestinian state.# This violence by terrorist organizations is not the PLO's ideal solution. There are clearly other militant organizations among the Palestinian refugees, including the Hamas party, but the civilians, forcefully ejected from their homes by Israel, who has also engaged in military action, are not to be held responsible for the actions of extremist groups.

To justify the forcible ejection of a people and the claiming of its land by saying that the Jewish people have had it hard in history is ludicrous - and what further astounds me is the alacrity with which some of Israel's proponents will jump to claims of anti-semitism. Israel cannot justify what is essentially a power play enacted through violent means as well as manipulation of sympathy throughout the developed world. America's support of Israel does not make Israeli military actions any more just than "terrorist attacks," which are seen by many in Palestine to be mere opposing military action in this long land-war. Israel continues to commit war crimes in its efforts to eradicate Palestine as a nation, and frequently defy the UN, actions tantamount to rebelling against international law. The Israeli court system has clear incentive to act in a biased manner, and under Israeli jurisdiction Palestinians have no way to work within the law to better their situation. With international law not being enforced, it's no wonder that some have turned to violent means to accomplish their ends.

Considering all this, it is quite reasonable to ask them to recind their civilian population from territories that are merely occupied, and to allow the creation of a small Palestinian nation within these territories. While some in Palestine may not be satisfied with this solution - after all, none of the land was actually Israel's to begin with - at least giving the Palestinians that land which is not actually part of Israel even today will be a step towards peace between the two groups.

*http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument (The Fourth Geneva Convention in full)
^http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a...ba123cded3ea84a5852560e50077c2dc!OpenDocument (The UN's resolution)
#http://www.nad-plo.org/inner.php?view=nego_permanent_summary_howsummer2p (Granted, it's the PLO's own website.)

 

[Zephyr]

Geez, am I and DW the only ones interested here? Oh well.

So it appears that even though we disagree on some points, we both want the same resolution: have the Israelites give the Palestinians the land that are only occupied. I don't believe that the actions some of them have taken are reasonable, and I think that they should offer a settlement to the PLO so they could at least say that they tried to prevent further bloodshed from occurring. I doubt the PLO would accept - but it is a possibility worth exploring. International law is being violated and nothing is being done about it, and we've all seen what stems from that.

It is also quite obvious in hindsight that my sources are outdated and not worth mentioning. And it's probably my own viewpoint that is skewed due to my Christian beliefs, since I believe that the Jews are God's Chosen People, so I pretty much have to side with them. I tried to keep that out of it, but I guess it showed somehow. However, it is true that both parties are guilty of war crimes against the other. Both parties are equally guilty in the mess they've made, and I don't think that the two similar yet starkly contrasting religions help much either.

But you have to remember: Israel was created for a purpose. Has that purpose changed?

 

[Digital Watches]

Hmm... hard to debate further when you've adopted the clever and devious strategy of making arguments I already agree with.

I'd still say that even the land Israel has was gained in a manner that couldn't quite be called legal, but then again, neither was the US, if we're talking about supplanting native people, and at this point, a compromise would be more reasonable and practical than trying to get Israel to pack up and leave.

So I guess it would work to either withdraw all civilian settlements in occupied territory and allow the formation of a Palestinian nation, or... combine the whole landmass into a joint venture. Some sort of Palestisrael. The latter sounds great in theory, but would probably suck in practice, to use the technical term.

In short: Well said, Zephyr.

 

[cF=)]

How to resolve this ?

This war has been fueled for years by religion and won't stop simply because every other nation is concerned by it. The real problem is that they fought, fight and will continue to fight until one of them gain ALL the territory. That's where the problem is, no sharing = massive attacks and counter attacks from each others.

I guess the only way to get out of it, is either do like DW said and combine the two countries (although I don't believe it would ever work), or simply declare this land to be under the juridiction of an impartial country (which is neither a good idea).

 

[Digital Watches]

Er... what are you suggesting? You say that neither combining the countries nor placing them under the jurisdiction of an impartial country will work... but if both solutions are bad ideas, then what SHOULD be done? Are you saying that there's no solution? If so, then I'm inclined to disagree, and think that allowing a Palestinian state to form in the currently occupied territories, by military intervention on the part of a foreign power or otherwise, would be most viable.

 

[sheepyman]

The people who allowed Israel to become a nation are at fault for the current debachle.

The real, true, and only solution is to give Palestinians their land back, and give the Jews their land, elsewhere, from a country willing to donate land.

But guess what? No country is willing to donate land, is there? The US was all for Israel being formed out of another country's land. If someone had asked the US to donate to the Jews a state, the US would've surely declined. No, the superpowers were selfish yet sympathetic, and thus did something terrible and stole someone else's land.

The Palestinians reacted reasonably, and the Israelis are just protecting the only piece of the pie they've had these past thousands of years.

My solution: The US loses a territory to Israel, and all the countries who approved the last Israel have to help pay for it.

As for being realistic, there is no solution. People in general are too powerhungry and greedy to allow a peaceful solution to exist.

Oh, and the reason the US backs Israel is because we gave them a bunch of stuff (see: weapons) way back in the day. We can't let them kill off innocent Palestinians with OUR weapons because that would make us look bad.

Sorry for not citing my sources, but I'm really tired . This is just from what I know or have read about the conflict.

 

[cF=)]

/agrees with sheepyman.

And I don't understand, DW, why you said that the best option to resolve this conflict was to use the army to force Israel in accepting a palestinian state. In my opinion, it doesn't help because there would still be friction between both sides, and by friction, I mean that violent attacks won't stop if you decide to force one or another to accept your conditions.

 

[Digital Watches]

/agrees with sheepyman.

And I don't understand, DW, why you said that the best option to resolve this conflict was to use the army to force Israel in accepting a palestinian state. In my opinion, it doesn't help because there would still be friction between both sides, and by friction, I mean that violent attacks won't stop if you decide to force one or another to accept your conditions.

I concede that it's a bad idea to use military force if it isn't necessary, but all America's doing by supporting Israel is essentially sponsoring the oppression of yet another substantial group of people for no reason other than our arbitrary choice of sides and blanket-sympathy for the plight of the Jewish people.

All I'm saying is that Israel should not be unchecked, taking land and justifying it with what is essentially Manifest Destiny, making the refugees out to be terrorists in an apparently successful attempt to gain justification for their continuing unethical military action. SOME solution must be decided upon and carried out, and it certainly shouldn't be for Israel to continue behaving unethically, and the Palestinian refugees to continue enduring it.

And as the superpower the US seems to be, this ardent alliance we apparently have with Israel makes it quite difficult for the UN to really do anything in the direction of any such resolution.

 

[James Sparrow]

I do not think that hundreds of years of persecution justifies a group based on religion to lay claim to a land that is currently occupied. I see how it is easy for people to sympathize with the Jews, who doesn't? The thing is, just because we are sympathetic because of their history, we don't need to turn a blind eye to something that may be as oppressive and intrusive as some of their own tribulations were in the past. I know very little about this conflict, and should definitely take some time to look into it more before forming too much of an opinion; however, after reading this thread and the opinions here, I have the first impression that the Jews are unjustified in their seizing of the land.

 

[Digital Watches]

Well, to be fair, it's a bit more complicated than that. The issue is similar to America's annexing of land from the native people of that area. It would certainly seem a bit unreasonable to displace Israel COMPLETELY now, just as it would seem unreasonable to dissolve the United States or Canada entirely to give the land back to Native Americans. Still, hopefully in an age where concepts of Imperialism and Manifest Destiny are looked down upon (at least said to be,) we can come up with a much more reasonable resolution to this much more recent unjustified displacement of native people.