Isaac for DLC - One day. Some day. Golden Sunday.

[Skyblade12]

What I don't get even more is the inclusion of Lucina as a separate fighter. His explanation for clones like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are that he wanted to make different moves for the characters. Understandable, except for the fact that Marth and Lucina are practically the same character, but with different sweet spots. Why Lucina wasn't an alternative costume, I'll never know.
Not trying to hate on Lucina, but I'm more hating the choice of having a near exact clone taking the spot of a potential character.

They aren't "taking the spot". The team neared the end of development, had extra time, and fleshed out the clone characters into separate entities by changing a few features. They weren't planned from the beginning. That's why, in the reveal trailer, Pit doesn't have a splash screen. And why Lucina has a ? at the end of hers. Because they were originally just costumes.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

What I don't get even more is the inclusion of Lucina as a separate fighter. His explanation for clones like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are that he wanted to make different moves for the characters. Understandable, except for the fact that Marth and Lucina are practically the same character, but with different sweet spots. Why Lucina wasn't an alternative costume, I'll never know.
Not trying to hate on Lucina, but I'm more hating the choice of having a near exact clone taking the spot of a potential character.

To make the roster look bigger.

Robin's fine. Sakurai's not: Fire Emblem already had a nice number of fighters before Smash 4. There was also a good number of other possible themes for Fire Emblem characters. People were even expecting Chrom, not Robin. And of course he had to pick the theme suiting Isaac the most, thus hurting his chances the most. This and the lack of explanation on why some ATs, including Isaac, were removed.

He thought Chrom would be like any other swordsmen, nothing made him unique. I don't think Sakurai was thinking "Oh, I'll pick Robin to get back at those Isaac fans and lower his chances. HAHAHAHA!"

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

 

[Falgor]

To make the roster look bigger.

He thought Chrom would be like any other swordsmen, nothing made him unique. I don't think Sakurai was thinking "Oh, I'll pick Robin to get back at those Isaac fans and lower his chances. HAHAHAHA!"

Well, anyway he doesn't seem to appreciate Golden Sun. At all. Otherwise we would have had our single character and everyone here wouldn't be waiting like we did for more than 10 years. Sakurai bias is a thing.

This is not a "all stars" game anymore, it's a "some stars Sakurai prefers" game.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

Well, anyway he doesn't seem to appreciate Golden Sun. At all. Otherwise we would have had our single character and everyone here wouldn't be waiting like we did for more than 10 years. Sakurai bias is a thing.

This is not a "all stars" game anymore, it's a "some stars Sakurai prefers" game.

Yes, Sakurai bias is a thing. Its a thing with anyone that has control over a crossover game and likes certain characters.

 

[N3ON]

Whoa whoa whoa someone (the artist I think) posted that pic in this thread like a month ago. Top ****ing kek.

EDIT: was it you, @ N3ON ? IIRC it was you that posted a few pics

Yeh I posted it here a couple weeks ago but I'm not the creator.

 

[Kenith]

I cant believe in this day and age people are still claiming the clones take another character's "spot" despite the evidence and indeed, logic indicating otherwise.

Also, if you think that Isaac's chances are shot because Robin "takes his gimmick", it seems like you're selling Isaac short imo. And as a supporter that doesn't seem very supportive of him.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I hate to say it and hurt everyone's feelings but Fire Emblem diserves the attention it's been getting lately. It's one of Nintendo's oldest and most influential series'. It defined the SRPG genre. It just so happened that during Sm4sh's development Awakening was released and was a huge success. So having Lucina as a separate character to please her fans can only be good. Clones don't "take slots" there aren't "slots" to take. What @ Skyblade12 said is exactly right, they were just added because they had time.

Does all this mean that Isaac doesn't deserve to be in? Absolutely not. But you can't blame Sakurai for giving Fire Emblem the lime light for once in its 25 years of existence. Especially after the surprising success of Awakening. I truly believe, as I'm sure all you do, that if Dark Dawn sold well there would be no doubt that a Golden Sun character would be included. Sakurai biased does exist, very much so. If you want to see bias though look at Palutena's 12 different, unique moves not at Fire Emblem. For retrospect, here's why each character was added into Smash 4: Robin because fans had been clamoring for a non sword user since the release of Brawl, Lucina for her being the No. 2 choice for a FE character in Japan (only behind Roy), Roy the number 2 most requested character of all time, right behind Mewtwo.

What I'm getting at is: you can blame Sakurai for a lot of things. Kid Icarus "over-repped", Palutena, Ridley, hell even for Isaac not being included. The only people to blame for FE being "over-repped" however, is the community itself. Not Sakurai.

 

[Falgor]

I cant believe in this day and age people are still claiming the clones take another character's "spot" despite the evidence and indeed, logic indicating otherwise.

Also, if you think that Isaac's chances are shot because Robin "takes his gimmick", it seems like you're selling Isaac short imo. And as a supporter that doesn't seem very supportive of him.

They're not "shot", but the whole gimmick could have easily been used for him instead of yet another Fire Emblem character.
And somehow yes, I sell Isaac short because for some reasons only Sakurai knows, we were always screwed until now. We could easily be once more. I don't trust Sakurai at all. I still do everything I possibly can, but that doesn't mean I'm sure Isaac's going to be included.

I hate to say it and hurt everyone's feelings but Fire Emblem diserves the attention it's been getting lately. It's one of Nintendo's oldest and most influential series'. It defined the SRPG genre. It just so happened that during Sm4sh's development Awakening was released and was a huge success. So having Lucina as a separate character to please her fans can only be good. Clones don't "take slots" there aren't "slots" to take. What @ Skyblade12 said is exactly right, they were just added because they had time.

Does all this mean that Isaac doesn't deserve to be in? Absolutely not. But you can't blame Sakurai for giving Fire Emblem the lime light for once in its 25 years of existence. Especially after the surprising success of Awakening. I truly believe, as I'm sure all you do, that if Dark Dawn sold well there would be no doubt that a Golden Sun character would be included. Sakurai biased does exist, very much so. If you want to see bias though look at Palutena's 12 different, unique moves not at Fire Emblem. For retrospect, here's why each character was added into Smash 4: Robin because fans had been clamoring for a non sword user since the release of Brawl, Lucina for her being the No. 2 choice for a FE character in Japan (only behind Roy), Roy the number 2 most requested character of all time, right behind Mewtwo.

What I'm getting at is: you can blame Sakurai for a lot of things. Kid Icarus "over-repped", Palutena, Ridley, hell even for Isaac not being included. The only people to blame for FE being "over-repped" however, is the community itself. Not Sakurai.

I don't mean that Fire Emblem doesn't deserve the attention (Note that the attention isn't only being in Smash: Fire Emblem has a concert, for example). What I mean is: Other franchises also do.
Yet it seems extremely hard for Sakurai to give everyone the little part they deserve in Smash.
And now with the Ballot, it's the exact same thing for a huge majority of players talking about characters again.
And on that point, I agree with you that the community (or even communities) is also to blame.

Let me tell you an example: When I see people whining about Squirtle and Ivysaur, I'm pissed to the highest point.
I'm a BIG Pokémon fan. I buy all the new games day one, I play them more than any other games, etc.
Yet I won't ask for Squirtle and Ivysaur to come back. Even if Isaac was added and that I had what I wanted.
And I enjoyed playing as them in Brawl a lot.

Why wouldn't I request them again? Because they had their time. How many characters of a ton of unrepresented franchises never had theirs?
An awful lot
(And it's incredibly stupid to want to pay twice for the same characters, imo).

If Isaac makes it in the game, I'll start caring about other characters from unrepresented franchises.
Even from ones I never got to simply play outside of Smash.
Sadly enough, I think I must be pretty much alone to think this way. I just wish a maximum of people could enjoy Smash like they should be able to. Not only the very lucky fans of two or three franchises, as deserving as they may be.

 

[Skyblade12]

You're selling Isaac short because you're acting as though "swords and magic" is the only theme he could have. Even though a lot of us in this thread have argued against swords altogether.

Why not complain that Shulk took his gimmick of stats changing as he uses specials?

These are only a few possible gimmicks for a character who has tons, and who still could be utterly unique even if he did just rehash the gimmicks of others. Isaac's "swords and magic" would be very different from Robin's.

 

[Falgor]

You're selling Isaac short because you're acting as though "swords and magic" is the only theme he could have. Even though a lot of us in this thread have argued against swords altogether.

Why not complain that Shulk took his gimmick of stats changing as he uses specials?

These are only a few possible gimmicks for a character who has tons, and who still could be utterly unique even if he did just rehash the gimmicks of others. Isaac's "swords and magic" would be very different from Robin's.

We know that Isaac could have other themes. Does Sakurai know? Does he care? There's no way we can be sure about this. The thing that speaks for him is the game he delivers.

We indeed have argued against swords altogether. Yet, I can't imagine one second Sakurai making Isaac without one. Do you?

I could complain about Shulk, but then it would be way less justified: Shulk is the first character of his series.
Arguably, yes, it's irritating to see that he was included before Isaac when we wait for him for a longer time.
Then there's the subject of "Is Shulk's moveset true to what he is in Xenoblade?". And then I can't really talk since I'm no expert on that matter.

Isaac's magic would most probably be fairly different from Robin's. I'm not sold on the sword, though.
But I'm truly interested to read about your possible ideas of gimmicks for Isaac.

(I won't be able to answer right now though)

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

Isaac's theme - Earth magic...

 

[Capita]

You're selling Isaac short because you're acting as though "swords and magic" is the only theme he could have. Even though a lot of us in this thread have argued against swords altogether.

Why not complain that Shulk took his gimmick of stats changing as he uses specials?

These are only a few possible gimmicks for a character who has tons, and who still could be utterly unique even if he did just rehash the gimmicks of others. Isaac's "swords and magic" would be very different from Robin's.

I think the difference between Robin and Shulk is that Shulk was in an unrepresented series unlike Robin. Falgor was likely suggesting Fire Emblem was far more represented than many other franchises, not just Golden Sun. Imbalances in representation have been affected by certain franchises being more popular than others, no doubt about it. I don't think any of us were surprised to see a Fire Emblem rep. However, when you see franchises like Golden Sun have 0 representatives, and franchises that have been represented since the 64 days like Metroid and Donkey Kong still only having 1 rep, despite having a huge amount of fan support for both the former and the latter, it's a little tough to take in.

 

[Liverpool19]

Maybe Isaac could have stat changes (like Shulk's) that can stack up on one another and each time he uses one it takes longer to cast, leaving him open for attacks or is that to broken?

 

[Falgor]

I think the difference between Robin and Shulk is that Shulk was in an unrepresented series unlike Robin. Falgor was likely suggesting Fire Emblem was far more represented than many other franchises, not just Golden Sun. Imbalances in representation have been affected by certain franchises being more popular than others, no doubt about it. I don't think any of us were surprised to see a Fire Emblem rep. However, when you see franchises like Golden Sun have 0 representatives, and franchises that have been represented since the 64 days like Metroid and Donkey Kong still only having 1 rep, despite having a huge amount of fan support for both the former and the latter, it's a little tough to take in.

You got it. In a perfect world, every franchise would have a ton of content because every one would deserve it.
However, we're not in a perfect world. Still, the way the things were and are handled in Smash are far worse than what could have been done, with the same limited means/ressources.

The problem being: Now we could have had something yo say, yet I'm fairly sure most people didn't and won't care since they're not on the screwed side.

(I really gotta go now, I'm sorry. )

 

[smashtriforce77]

Golden Sun is not the only one to be misrepresented you know? Look, the Custom Robo license has also lost their representation trophy aid as Isaac or even loss of veterans Ice Climbers and Wolf who had their fans. I think unfortunately, a Golden Sun character was not a priority in the developement and do not blame the choice of Sakurai given that the roster still includes 50 characters which is huge enough in a fighting game.
And especially, Fire Emblem needed to have a user of magic in the roster that another swordsman.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

...Are we seriously having an argument about Isaac not being in because of Sakurai bias? He said fan favourites are going to happen, if Isaac gets enough votes, we'd easily see him playable. Robin and Isaac are also completely different, Robin also has the durability mechanic, something Isaac doesn't have. When people say 'muh Fire Emblem characters' I can't help but groan, especially as Fire Emblem's overall popularity has been growing outside of a certain misunderstanding of a support in Fates (****ing tumblr ruining everything by claiming homophobia)

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Gonna put my 2 cents in this matter.

Looking at most of the roster inclusions in Sm4sh, most of them have been for 1st-party franchises. The only exceptions were Shulk, Robin and Greninja, but both were from very prolific games each.

Golden Sun also pales a lot in comparison to other franchises in Smash today, which when combined of being a 2nd Party, seems to make it more difficult to go for getting the rights to use him from Camelot and work on him, when there's more desirable characters that'd be easier to implement through existing franchises, and/or would have more widely attainable reception than Isaac, such as more recent and huge fan-favorite Xenoblade Chronicles. GS has been quite in a decline in fanbase at East since Dark Dawn, so not seeing it here might have not been too surprising.

However, as it seems that Isaac not being an Assist, is definitely a blessing in disguise, now that the Ballot's being around. On the moveset, it's up to us fans to tell how he'd fight like incase we want to ensure Isaac will look appealing and not be just another variant of other more interesting swordmen. To be frank, Robin and Shulk are nothing like Isaac, really. Isaac doesn't use tomes and rely on durable weapons, or having a sword that has a massive range and can change it's stats at will. So yeah, Isaac being anything like Robin (or Shulk) would be quite stretching it.

I always thought he'd primarily use Earth Psynergy more than his sword, only saving it for things like a jab, or other weak attacks. The Earth Psynergy would be the real star here with being quite ground-based but also having elements from Ivysaur's moves (now that she's not back(, along with other Psynergy-moves that can have plenty utility like in their overworld-versions in the games (Move, Catch, Pound, etc). This again could give Isaac's moveset be that of an arena control/trapping, which could be combined with powerful ground-level attacks.

 

[JohnnySparkxs]

Well, it seems people started to complain, but I'll be honest, I didn't went through all this text, so here's my opinion: clones don't take slots, they are there because the main roster was already finished and they had time to bring us even more content (although it's shame that Isaac wasn't planned for the initial roster).

As for Isaac moveset and sine I already made one, I think 20~30% of his attacks should be sword based and 70~80% should be psynergy based.

 

[EmeraldDragonair]

My two cents

Spoiler

I really don't see any problem with FE having 3 reps given its age. Sure the sales are usually not there, but FE (usually) makes a new set of characters for each game, where every other major Nintendo series that isn't Pokemon usually recycles the same core characters. Hence why FE and Pokemon are "over-repped", although most people can accept Pokemon given its sales.
& have, combined, 1 game outside of Japan. & have 3 combined. Out of 13. (for comparison Pokemon, for all intents and purposes, has 10 games, remakes inclusive + spin-offs)
If Sakurai had just kept Marth and Roy/Ike the FE representation would become increasingly irrelevant without additional characters leading to complaints, like how people complain about the prevailance of Gen 1 Pokemon. They could cut Ike, but then people would complain (see Mewtwo, Roy, Lucas, Wolf -all bar one of which are less unique than Ike). They could add a third character, but, as we are seeing here, people will complain.

Unless you are a fan of Alph or Wireframe Mac, Lucina had no bearing on anything. and casualising Marth is still a better use of a clone spot than Shadow the Angel.

Yes with Roy it is getting overboard, but given that Roy was added to as a result of popular demand, and that we are trying to get Isaac in through popular demand...

Besides I did some calculations pre-release and If we want to give reps based on sales, then in a Sm4sh sized (pre-DLC) roster Golden Sun would get 0.17th of a character. We would need 350 characters (128 for Mario, 75 for Pokemon, 54 for Wii fit/Sport/Music) to get Isaac in.
Note that I calculated this about 6 months ago, during which we have had new Mario and Pokemon (and other) games, which would push that number up even higher (Also I used VG Charts rather optimistic DD sales figure). Smash will never have 350+ characters, thus it is in our best interest to NOT have reps being determined by sales.

In a related note Shadow Dragon is now in on the Virtual Console (in Eurostralia at least). FE GBA was one of the first GBA VC games along with Goden Sun, Yoshi and Mario. The DS already has Yoshi and Mario VC games. Dark Dawn soon?

 

[Liverpool19]

My two cents

Spoiler

I really don't see any problem with FE having 3 reps given its age. Sure the sales are usually not there, but FE (usually) makes a new set of characters for each game, where every other major Nintendo series that isn't Pokemon usually recycles the same core characters. Hence why FE and Pokemon are "over-repped", although most people can accept Pokemon given its sales.
& have, combined, 1 game outside of Japan. & have 3 combined. Out of 13. (for comparison Pokemon, for all intents and purposes, has 10 games, remakes inclusive + spin-offs)
If Sakurai had just kept Marth and Roy/Ike the FE representation would become increasingly irrelevant without additional characters leading to complaints, like how people complain about the prevailance of Gen 1 Pokemon. They could cut Ike, but then people would complain (see Mewtwo, Roy, Lucas, Wolf -all bar one of which are less unique than Ike). They could add a third character, but, as we are seeing here, people will complain.

Unless you are a fan of Alph or Wireframe Mac, Lucina had no bearing on anything. and casualising Marth is still a better use of a clone spot than Shadow the Angel.

Yes with Roy it is getting overboard, but given that Roy was added to as a result of popular demand, and that we are trying to get Isaac in through popular demand...

Besides I did some calculations pre-release and If we want to give reps based on sales, then in a Sm4sh sized (pre-DLC) roster Golden Sun would get 0.17th of a character. We would need 350 characters (128 for Mario, 75 for Pokemon, 54 for Wii fit/Sport/Music) to get Isaac in.
Note that I calculated this about 6 months ago, during which we have had new Mario and Pokemon (and other) games, which would push that number up even higher (Also I used VG Charts rather optimistic DD sales figure). Smash will never have 350+ characters, thus it is in our best interest to NOT have reps being determined by sales.

In a related note Shadow Dragon is now in on the Virtual Console (in Eurostralia at least). FE GBA was one of the first GBA VC games along with Goden Sun, Yoshi and Mario. The DS already has Yoshi and Mario VC games. Dark Dawn soon?

I thought about this when they announced DS VC games. I really hope it gets Dark Dawn soon, because I haven't played it... yet.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I thought about this when they announced DS VC games. I really hope it gets Dark Dawn soon, because I haven't played it... yet.

Dark Dawn would really make GS much more accessible to people. Has Lost Ages still released up in US?

 

[Staarih]

So I finally got myself a copy of Dark Dawn. After playing the original GS and The Lost Age via the Wii U, it was a logical step to get the third game to get the full Golden Sun experience haha! Too busy to begin it just yet, but hopefully I'll get to it soon, so excited!

 

[Felix the Slayer]

Dark Dawn would really make GS much more accessible to people. Has Lost Ages still released up in US?

I don't think so, unfortunately.

Edit: I'm talking about TLA, not DD.

 

[JohnnySparkxs]

Dark Dawn is totally worth playing, but the points of no returns are a total pain the ***, as well as it makes you have to constantly check a Djinn guide if you don't want to miss any.

 

[Capita]

Yeah, play Dark Dawn, especially if you are a Golden Sun fan. I haven't played Dark Dawn nearly as much as I did for the original two, and while my initial reaction was slightly underwhelming for my first play-through of Dark Dawn, it's still had that Golden Sun feel that I know and love and one of my favorite additions was the visual additions to the Dijin and the journal thing.

 

[Opana]

Finally playing GS again after all these years is amazing, it may be my favorite series right behind Smash. I'm 100% going to support Isaac, I don't think he'll have more votes than K. Rool but I'm sure he'll fall into a top spot among other several characters, I think he's honestly gonna have 2nd or 3rd most votes which should be enough.

 

[Liverpool19]

Dark Dawn would really make GS much more accessible to people. Has Lost Ages still released up in US?

Has TLA not realsed in the US, that's news to me.

 

[Falgor]

Golden Sun is not the only one to be misrepresented you know? Look, the Custom Robo license has also lost their representation trophy aid as Isaac or even loss of veterans Ice Climbers and Wolf who had their fans. I think unfortunately, a Golden Sun character was not a priority in the developement and do not blame the choice of Sakurai given that the roster still includes 50 characters which is huge enough in a fighting game.
And especially, Fire Emblem needed to have a user of magic in the roster that another swordsman.

I did state in my posts that other series were concerned, so yes, I know. I didn't only speak for Golden Sun and that only makes the problem bigger: There's a blatant lack of diversity in the roster, Sakurai doesn't seem to give a damn about this and now that we have a say on how the roster should be constructed, a majority of people are being greedy once again.
Again, I have nothing against the characters themselves, but when I see people requesting right now Micaiah or other characters from Fire Emblem, I wonder when will they be satisfied and stop complaining when they already have way more than others. Well in fact the answer is easy: never.

So yes, I consider that I have every right to blame both Sakurai and an enormous part of the Smash community until I see things changing. Two or three different characters on this 50 character roster would already make it much better. It's not such a big deal, is it?
We all know that Mario is the big boss. Was it necessary to include two newcomers for his series in Smash 4? I doubt it.
WFT and the Duck Hunt Duo are funny additions, just like R.O.B., but would people have cried if they were not playable, back in Brawl and now in Smash 4? I also doubt it. Being funny is nice, but it's not all we need.
It's all a question of priorities, and Sakurai has an awful sense of priorities. There was a ton of opportunities for him to make it better, and he didn't need to do it all at once, but he kept letting them pass because of his bias.

Gonna put my 2 cents in this matter.

Looking at most of the roster inclusions in Sm4sh, most of them have been for 1st-party franchises. The only exceptions were Shulk, Robin and Greninja, but both were from very prolific games each.

Golden Sun also pales a lot in comparison to other franchises in Smash today, which when combined of being a 2nd Party, seems to make it more difficult to go for getting the rights to use him from Camelot and work on him, when there's more desirable characters that'd be easier to implement through existing franchises, and/or would have more widely attainable reception than Isaac, such as more recent and huge fan-favorite Xenoblade Chronicles. GS has been quite in a decline in fanbase at East since Dark Dawn, so not seeing it here might have not been too surprising.

Just so you know, 2nd party doesn't technically exists. So they're all 1st party. And I frankly doubt Camelot would refuse anyway. Isaac was an AT in Brawl, after all.
And even if I get your point, the "more desirable character" logic still annoys me to no end: People already satisfied will be even more, and others (including us but not only) will starve.
Smash is a formidable tool to help boost franchises and they use it on already healthy ones. That's just a waste and finding excuses won't make it any better.

 

[JohnnySparkxs]

Again, I have nothing against the characters themselves, but when I see people requesting right now Micaiah or other characters from Fire Emblem, I wonder when will they be satisfied and stop complaining when they already have way more than others. Well in fact the answer is easy: never.

And the worst part, is that I know some people like this specially, some of the Pokémon community. I'm a huge Pokémon fan, but we already have enough Pokémon, however, I know some Pokémon fans that didn't help me vote for Isaac, because they didn't want (heck, I could even give them the text), but because they will only buy the game if Hawlucha/Sceptile would make it in. I was totally speechless, because instead of helping me and it would take only a few minutes (or saying that they didn't want to help, which is also totally understandable, since they're not Smash fans), they went and voted for a Pokémon that probably won't make it in (c'mon, six is enough) when they don't even have the game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Was it necessary to include two newcomers for his series in Smash 4? I doubt it..

Was it necessary to put Nintendo characters in Dragon Fighters? Is it necessary to include Isaac as a playable character?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Just so you know, 2nd party doesn't technically exists. So they're all 1st party. And I frankly doubt Camelot would refuse anyway. Isaac was an AT in Brawl, after all.

It does when it comes to the budget for the rights to use the characters and properly represent them as they are in the games. Nintendo didn't develop Golden Sun, Camelot did. Combine with other resource-based budget management and weigh it with the actual popularity and recognizability of more known franchises.

Also, what do you take the names of all companies BELOW the title screen in ever Smash since Melee?

Isaac also isn't in Sm4sh as a playable, or even an Assist despite your claims that he'd been easy to implement with lots of reward back to back. Can you explain that without resorting to "Sakurai-bias"?

And even if I get your point, the "more desirable character" logic still annoys me to no end: People already satisfied will be even more, and others (including us but not only) will starve.

Sakurai and his team don't owe us anything however when it comes to the roster. You aren't the ones making the game, and the saddest part is that he's still doing Smash foremost with fans in mind. Hell, THIS is why the BALLOT EXCISTS. That is his way to let him know even better what we TRULY want, now that most of his suggestions has been set in stone. Which is why I suggest that Isaac has to now be more voted than ever. You know, instead of complaining.

I mean, some characters can't even make it despite their immense popularity (Ridley and Waluigi), which even further shows that what fans want isn't necessarily what Sakurai wishes to do according to his own desired philosophy with Smash and portraying characters in it. And that's okay.

Secondly, what are you taking these series for? Does Golden Sun REALLY compare to them when it comes to these more widely known franchises enough to be put on more bigger spotlight because just how it is lacking "publicity"?

By this, we then should be receiving C-list franchises like Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Legendary Starfy, Panel De Pon, Mysterious Murasame Castle, Sin & Punishment with playable characters, and who knows what much more series lacking in same public presence as most of the franchises with playables in Smash.

But yet again, this would create so much complication, as choosing to represent these franchises is gonna result in anything but trying to "bring them out from the obscure-land". It asks for resources and like which still has to amount on as much good reception, recognizability and also recent celebration more popular franchises.

Ergo, why Kid Icarus has so much stuff, as it's from the last project Sakurai worked on, and thus had easiest resources and familiarity to build upon. Resource management so you can put better time on less easy ones.

Honestly, Smash wouldn't sell as well as it does today if it's riddled with too much series that majority of people don't know about. Heck, having so many obscure franchises to represent at once just to feed the more profound minorities would just amount to a lot of development hassle, and loss of identity when it comes to Smash's target audience.

Smash is a formidable tool to help boost franchises and they use it on already healthy ones. That's just a waste and finding excuses won't make it any better.

The thing is, Smash ISN'T MEANT TO BE a tool to promote franchises. It's meant to CELEBRATE them instead. This is why most of the more popular franchises get the love they are getting, with some increasingly receiving more than others,

This is why we rarely, if ever, see characters like Inkling or even any of most cult-fave obscurities in the series. There's just much more to it than what most people still think, and it is anything but promoting the series Smash features.

Takamaru wasn't added because Sakurai felt he was still too obscure in means of content despite being filled with plenty cameos in the last decade.

I mean, the fact that Ice Climbers weren't further developed against the limitations of the 3DS was because they were at best, RETRO characters that hadn't really been relevant aside from Smash-games.

Captain Falcon also suffers from this partially, with no F-Zero ever in sight, and is now more or less Smash Bros's unofficial mascot. Kid Icarus is very likely to fall in the same lane now that Sakurai abandoned the series after just borrowing it to give it's own project a world to mold it into.

The whole promotion is just Nintendo trying to ride in Smash's success to make it sell the games appearing in the franchise, mostly bia E-Shop sales and like, honestly. Amiibo is even more pronounced. But the core fact is that Nintendo is still, a business. They always have to ensure cash along wth doing quality work, or well, they'll have financial slip-ups.

Honestly though, stop complaining about the roster and let's work on getting Isaac in this time now that the chances are right within our grasp - voluntarily given by the director himself.

 

[Capita]

Was it necessary to put Nintendo characters in Dragon Fighters? Is it necessary to include Isaac as a playable character?

No, decisions like those are based off of the fact that people demand such a thing. However, problem is, everyone demands for something, and there is only so much a development team can supply.
There is no doubt there was a demand for a new Kid Icarus rep, especially because of the new game bringing Kid Icarus into the Nintendo spot light. However, there was demand for other characters too, a demand that was greater than Isaac's, and greater than the Kid Icarus reps we got. However, it was Sakurai's choice to supply us with a Kid Icarus rep rather than more popular choices. Did it make people happy? Of course. Did it make people upset? Of course as well. Not everyone can be happy.

That's the great thing about the Smash ballot. This time, the Smash development team is taking into great account where a majority of the demand is directed at. That's why I will by no doubt be upset over King K. Rool's inclusion. Partially because I love the DKC series, but also because I know that this time, the majority got what they wanted, which is what I think they deserve.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

And the worst part, is that I know some people like this specially, some of the Pokémon community. I'm a huge Pokémon fan, but we already have enough Pokémon, however, I know some Pokémon fans that didn't help me vote for Isaac, because they didn't want (heck, I could even give them the text), but because they will only buy the game if Hawlucha/Sceptile would make it in. I was totally speechless, because instead of helping me and it would take only a few minutes (or saying that they didn't want to help, which is also totally understandable, since they're not Smash fans), they went and voted for a Pokémon that probably won't make it in (c'mon, six is enough) when they don't even have the game.

Bruh, let them vote for who they want. Six Pokemon is an okay amount for THE SECOND BIGGEST VIDEO GAME FRANCHISE IN HISTORY. People don't get it, Pokemon and Mario deserve these reps and possibly more, they made history whether you like it or not.

 

[Coaltergeist]

Bruh, let them vote for who they want. Six Pokemon is an okay amount for THE SECOND BIGGEST VIDEO GAME FRANCHISE IN HISTORY. People don't get it, Pokemon and Mario deserve these reps and possibly more, they made history whether you like it or not.

It was the best-selling game series on the 2nd best selling console of all time after all

 

[Capita]

Bruh, let them vote for who they want. Six Pokemon is an okay amount for THE SECOND BIGGEST VIDEO GAME FRANCHISE IN HISTORY. People don't get it, Pokemon and Mario deserve these reps and possibly more, they made history whether you like it or not.

Yeah, as bitter as I'd be over Isaac not getting in, and as much as my personal opinion would disagree, at least we'd know that more people wanted a Pokémon or Mario representative than a Golden Sun representative. There is a reason we have a Smash ballot. Sakurai bias does not exist at this point.
This is why people must vote for Isaac.

 

[StormC]

That's the great thing about the Smash ballot. This time, the Smash development team is taking into great account where a majority of the demand is directed at. That's why I will by no doubt be upset over King K. Rool's inclusion. Partially because I love the DKC series, but also because I know that this time, the majority got what they wanted, which is what I think they deserve.

I think you meant a different word than "upset."

 

[Capita]

I think you meant a different word than "upset."

No, King K. Rool is too fat to be in Smash.
Forgot to write not before.

 

[Falgor]

Was it necessary to put Nintendo characters in Dragon Fighters? Is it necessary to include Isaac as a playable character?

At least we wouldn't be mad to be screwed everytime if it wasn't about all Nintendo characters.
And yes, it is necessary to include Isaac, as it's necessary to include other characters, at this point.
I guess we're not even in the worst position right now, but like I said, I don't only care for what I want when I tell those things.

It does when it comes to the budget for the rights to use the characters and properly represent them as they are in the games. Nintendo didn't develop Golden Sun, Camelot did. Combine with other resource-based budget management and weigh it with the actual

Also, what do you take the names of all companies BELOW the title screen in ever Smash since Melee?

Isaac also isn't in Sm4sh as a playable, or even an Assist despite your claims that he'd been easy to implement with lots of reward back to back. Can you explain that without resorting to "Sakurai-bias"?[/quote]

What exactly makes you think it's a question of budget? Nintendo owns those franchises, they can do pretty much what they want with them. They ask Camelot to develop them, but they could ask some other studio if they wanted. If I'm wrong on this point, well, explain me where and why.

There's nothing else to explain it than the Sakurai bias. Camelot is included in the companies you talk about, they're in the credits, at least for Waluigi. I don't get why it would be different for a playable Isaac. There's absolutely no difference.

And about the "popularity and recognizability of more known franchises" thing, like I said, if that's so important, why isn't there only Mario, Pokémon and Zelda characters in Smash? It's not that relevant. It would be relevant to explain why we could most probably only have one playable rep for Golden Sun and not 4 or 5, it doesn't explain why we don't have one now.
Again, Sakurai bias explains why there's the Duck Hunt Duo and not Isaac or any other character from unrepresented franchises.

Sakurai and his team don't owe us anything however when it comes to the roster. You aren't the ones making the game, and the saddest part is that he's still doing Smash foremost with fans in mind. Hell, THIS is why the BALLOT is OPEN. That is his way to let him know even better what we TRULY want, now that most of his suggestions has been set in stone. Which is why I suggest that Isaac has to now be more voted than ever. You know, instead of complaining.

I don't owe him any money, like any of us do, if you go on that way. He partly owes the players his success.
And he did Smash with some fans in his mind, not all of them, from what I see when looking at the character screen.
Even then, the fact he does Smash doesn't mean he can't be criticized.

An important thing: Don't ever question my loyalty to our cause. I'm really confident that I've done a lot more than you have since the beginning of the Ballot, and even before. If you want to count the points, I'm your man.
"Complaining" like you call it doesn't prevents me from supporting Isaac at all. It's even a part of it.

I mean, some characters can't even make it despite their immense popularity (Ridley and Waluigi), which even further shows that what fans want isn't necessarily what Sakurai wishes to do according to his own desired philosophy with Smash and portraying characters in it. And that's okay.

Where's the link between Ridley and Isaac? One can't be included for technical (objective) reasons, the other is part of a group of characters left-out without any objective reasons, as far as we know. It was purely his choice. And his choices are debatable, whatever you may think, given how you defend him.
Funnily enough, Waluigi's also from Camelot. Though, is he from Mario, and this series is already very well represented when compared to others. There again, we come back to the same problem: The balance.

Secondly, what are you taking these series for? Does Golden Sun REALLY compare to them when it comes to these more widely known franchises enough to be put on more bigger spotlight because just how it is lacking "publicity"

By this, we then should be receiving C-list franchises like Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Legendary Starfy, Panel De Pon, Mysterious Murasame Castle, Sin & Punishment with playable characters, and who knows what much more series lacking in same public presence as most of the franchises with playables in Smash.

But yet again, this would create so much complication, as choosing to represent these franchises is gonna result in anything but trying to "bring them out from the obscure-land". It asks for resources and like which still has to amount on as much good reception, recognizability and also recent celebration more popular franchises.

Ergo, why Kid Icarus has so much stuff, as it's from the last project Sakurai worked on, and thus had easiest resources and familiarity to build upon. Resource management so you can put better time on less easy ones.

Honestly, Smash wouldn't sell as well as it does today if it's riddled with too much series that majority of people don't know about. Heck, having so many obscure franchises to represent at once just to feed the more profound minorities would just amount to a lot of development hassle, and loss of identity when it comes to Smash's target audience.

The thing is, Smash ISN'T MEANT TO BE a tool to promote franchises. It's meant to CELEBRATE them instead. This is why most of the more popular franchises get the love they are getting, with some increasingly receiving more than others,

This is why we rarely, if ever, see characters like Inkling or even any of most cult-fave obscurities in the series. There's just much more to it than what most people still think, and it is anything but promoting the series Smash features.

You repeat yourself and you make me repeat myself, that's pretty annoying btw.

Because a franchise isn't a console seller, the fans are worth nothing? Nice logic.
There's the difference between little and nothing, between 1+ and 0.
Kid Icarus has a ton of stuff, but Smash 4 didn't have a better resource management, imo. He used this supposed time to do other things that he should have not given priority to.
And I explained sooner that Sakurai didn't need to adress the problem in one go. He had time to do it gradually, but he didn't.
And I don't consider this to be a good thing. You may don't give a damn about this, but it's not everyone's case.

According to your logic, without Smash's help, I bet Fire Emblem would be dead today, and now Smash is riddled with characters from that franchise. Even if Smash wasn't meant to be a tool to promote franchises, it IS, now. You can't just deny it, that's not how it works.

About the Inklings, they could have been used to promote Splatoon, and somehow they did: They have Mii Costumes.
Not a full character, that's true. But they can easily include them in the next game to promote Splatoon 2, since these games are bound to happen.[/quote]

Takamaru wasn't added because Sakurai felt he was still too obscure in means of content despite being filled with plenty cameos in the last decade

And here, you have to take into account that Takamaru, if he still isn't playable, was considered. And was considered for Melee and possibly Brawl. Your argument about him being too obscure is indeed right. He's less relevant than Isaac is, and his game was Japan-only... And arguably, he would be less original than Isaac is.
Yet, he almost made it in Smash. He was extremely close to be another exemple of Sakurai bias.
And even if it's better for us now, at least he made it as an Assist Trophy, when Isaac didn't.
Isaac, along with other ATs, were in Brawl and would have been easy to make again for Smash 4, but they were not.
You talked about better resources management, mmhh? This is not good resources management.

And don't use Isaac, here. If he was still an AT, we'd most likely have tried with Matthew instead for the Ballot.

I mean, the fact that Ice Climbers weren't further developed against the limitations of the 3DS was because they were at best, RETRO characters that hadn't really been relevant aside from Smash-games.

Still, he tried. He wanted to have them in the game initially, despite their lack of relevancy. Which is not a bad thing.
But then again, if he makes it for the Ice Climbers, why not for other small franchises, at least a little?

Captain Falcon also suffers from this partially, with no F-Zero ever in sight, and is now more or less Smash Bros's unofficial mascot. Kid Icarus is very likely to fall in the same lane now that Sakurai abandoned the series after just borrowing it to give it's own project a world to mold it into

The whole promotion is just Nintendo trying to ride in Smash's success to make it sell the games appearing in the franchise, mostly bia E-Shop sales and like, honestly. Amiibo is even more pronounced. But the core fact is that Nintendo is still, a business. They always have to ensure cash along wth doing quality work, or well, they'll have financial slip-ups.

For F-Zero, the fault lies in Nintendo. They are responsible, for they don't try to push their other franchises at all, outside of Smash. Before Splatoon, people complained that they were always making the same games and it was true to some extent. Let's hope that will change, but I wouldn't expect it.

Kid Icarus may return in the shadows outside of Smash, but in Smash, people can't complain anymore.
This is the all point of the thing: He can do it if he wants. Just like he used Smash and Uprising together.
He pretty much did all of this for himself. It's not bad but it seems pretty self-focused.

Honestly though, stop complaining about the roster and let's work on getting Isaac in this time now that the chances are right within our grasp - voluntarily given by the director himself.

Like I said eariler, I know for a fact I did an enormous amount of promotion for Golden Sun, since the beginning of the year.
Now tell me, what did you do, other than putting your vote, if you want to preachify...?

Bruh, let them vote for who they want. Six Pokemon is an okay amount for THE SECOND BIGGEST VIDEO GAME FRANCHISE IN HISTORY. People don't get it, Pokemon and Mario deserve these reps and possibly more, they made history whether you like it or not.

Pokémon deserves way more than 10 characters in the game, if you ask me.
Does it means they should actually put ten characters or more? No, because anyway it wouldn't suffice.

There's a difference between what series deserve and what they should have.
Does Golden Sun deserves 8 characters? Yes, Golden Sun does. Will we have 8 characters? Of course no, it would be completely silly to have even 2 or 3 at this point.

It's a problem of balance, and whether you like or not, things are not balanced when it comes to franchises without reps.
People asking for even more Mario, Pokémon or Fire Emblem reps now are just being selfish and greedy.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

At least we wouldn't be mad to be screwed everytime if it wasn't about all Nintendo characters.
And yes, it is necessary to include Isaac, as it's necessary to include other characters, at this point.
I guess we're not even in the worst position right now, but like I said, I don't only care for what I want when I tell those things.



Also, what do you take the names of all companies BELOW the title screen in ever Smash since Melee?

Isaac also isn't in Sm4sh as a playable, or even an Assist despite your claims that he'd been easy to implement with lots of reward back to back. Can you explain that without resorting to "Sakurai-bias"?

What exactly makes you think it's a question of budget? Nintendo owns those franchises, they can do pretty much what they want with them. They ask Camelot to develop them, but they could ask some other studio if they wanted. If I'm wrong on this point, well, explain me where and why.

There's nothing else to explain it than the Sakurai bias. Camelot is included in the companies you talk about, they're in the credits, at least for Waluigi. I don't get why it would be different for a playable Isaac. There's absolutely no difference.

And about the "popularity and recognizability of more known franchises" thing, like I said, if that's so important, why isn't there only Mario, Pokémon and Zelda characters in Smash? It's not that relevant. It would be relevant to explain why we could most probably only have one playable rep for Golden Sun and not 4 or 5, it doesn't explain why we don't have one now.
Again, Sakurai bias explains why there's the Duck Hunt Duo and not Isaac or any other character from unrepresented franchises.



I don't owe him any money, like any of us do, if you go on that way. He partly owes the players his success.
And he did Smash with some fans in his mind, not all of them, from what I see when looking at the character screen.
Even then, the fact he does Smash doesn't mean he can't be criticized.

An important thing: Don't ever question my loyalty to our cause. I'm really confident that I've done a lot more than you have since the beginning of the Ballot, and even before. If you want to count the points, I'm your man.
"Complaining" like you call it doesn't prevents me from supporting Isaac at all. It's even a part of it.



Where's the link between Ridley and Isaac? One can't be included for technical (objective) reasons, the other is part of a group of characters left-out without any objective reasons, as far as we know. It was purely his choice. And his choices are debatable, whatever you may think, given how you defend him.
Funnily enough, Waluigi's also from Camelot. Though, is he from Mario, and this series is already very well represented when compared to others. There again, we come back to the same problem: The balance.



You repeat yourself and you make me repeat myself, that's pretty annoying btw.

Because a franchise isn't a console seller, the fans are worth nothing? Nice logic.
There's the difference between little and nothing, between 1+ and 0.
Kid Icarus has a ton of stuff, but Smash 4 didn't have a better resource management, imo. He used this supposed time to do other things that he should have not given priority to.
And I explained sooner that Sakurai didn't need to adress the problem in one go. He had time to do it gradually, but he didn't.
And I don't consider this to be a good thing. You may don't give a damn about this, but it's not everyone's case.

According to your logic, without Smash's help, I bet Fire Emblem would be dead today, and now Smash is riddled with characters from that franchise. Even if Smash wasn't meant to be a tool to promote franchises, it IS, now. You can't just deny it, that's not how it works.

About the Inklings, they could have been used to promote Splatoon, and somehow they did: They have Mii Costumes.
Not a full character, that's true. But they can easily include them in the next game to promote Splatoon 2, since these games are bound to happen.



And here, you have to take into account that Takamaru, if he still isn't playable, was considered. And was considered for Melee and possibly Brawl. Your argument about him being too obscure is indeed right. He's less relevant than Isaac is, and his game was Japan-only... And arguably, he would be less original than Isaac is.
Yet, he almost made it in Smash. He was extremely close to be another exemple of Sakurai bias.
And even if it's better for us now, at least he made it as an Assist Trophy, when Isaac didn't.
Isaac, along with other ATs, were in Brawl and would have been easy to make again for Smash 4, but they were not.
You talked about better resources management, mmhh? This is not good resources management.

And don't use Isaac, here. If he was still an AT, we'd most likely have tried with Matthew instead for the Ballot.



Still, he tried. He wanted to have them in the game initially, despite their lack of relevancy. Which is not a bad thing.
But then again, if he makes it for the Ice Climbers, why not for other small franchises, at least a little?



For F-Zero, the fault lies in Nintendo. They are responsible, for they don't try to push their other franchises at all, outside of Smash. Before Splatoon, people complained that they were always making the same games and it was true to some extent. Let's hope that will change, but I wouldn't expect it.

Kid Icarus may return in the shadows outside of Smash, but in Smash, people can't complain anymore.
This is the all point of the thing: He can do it if he wants. Just like he used Smash and Uprising together.
He pretty much did all of this for himself. It's not bad but it seems pretty self-focused.



Like I said eariler, I know for a fact I did an enormous amount of promotion for Golden Sun, since the beginning of the year.
Now tell me, what did you do, other than putting your vote, if you want to preachify...?

Bruh, calm down. Sakurai can't make everyone happy. He ain't god. Isaac is probably going to be DLC anyway right after K Rool (he is like the second most popular character in the ballot).