Is wanting to win wrong?

Is winning unhelpful when it comes to learning?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 47 100.0%

  • Total voters
    47

GamerZard

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
237
Location
Somewhere AWAY from Competitive Impressions
NNID
KopatropaEx
Switch FC
SW-4126-0500-0349
#41
That said, you shouldn't get salty if you lose. That's a sign that you're taking the game way too seriously and it's just going to cause you health problems. Temper your mindset to both win and lose with grace, but give it your all each time and accept that your best is your best.
Please explain what health problems might occur, because I've had some recently.
 

Xelrog

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
325
Location
Battle Ground, WA
Switch FC
SW 2367 4933 3404
#42
Does your friend know the difference between "cheap" and "risky"? The problem with poor edgeguarding is that it costs you a stock right then and there.
But if you never practice poor edgeguarding, you never reach the level of good edgeguarding. You have to do it, period, before you can do it well. A risky move is either a success or a failure that leads to improvement. Not taking risks at all will lead to zero improvement.

Please explain what health problems might occur, because I've had some recently.
I'm going to take the high road and assume this is not making an attempt to troll, and say that getting angry at video games not only alienates you from those around you but can also influence blood pressure, immune system performance, and aspects of one's mental health as well.
 

GamerZard

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
237
Location
Somewhere AWAY from Competitive Impressions
NNID
KopatropaEx
Switch FC
SW-4126-0500-0349
#43
I'm going to take the high road and assume this is not making an attempt to troll, and say that getting angry at video games not only alienates you from those around you but can also influence blood pressure, immune system performance, and aspects of one's mental health as well.
I have been feeling rather funky (in a bad way) after losing streaks, and it's making me worried. I love the game so much that I always come back to it, but losing affects me so negatively that's it's snowballed to near-dangerous levels once.
 

WumpaWolfy

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
74
Location
Mississauga, Canada
#44
I think the reason that 'playing to learn' seems so at odds with 'playing to win' is that they require you to shift your priorities. Playing to win requires playing at your absolute best, utilizing your most consistent options and minimizing risks. The idea is that you are not growing, but executing everything you have practiced up until that moment, making minor adaptations in response to your opponent, more so than fixing issues in your own play. And this is definitely the mindset that you should have when you're in a tournament setting.

However, this mindset leaves little room for experimentation and taking risks, which are often staples of the learning process in smash. How often do you dive offstage to challenge your opponents recovery? Each recovery has various hit boxes, timings, and mix ups to learn, and successfully edge guarding often requires many, many, many failed attempts that often involve losing your own stocks. You have to sacrifice success in the present for future success in this scenario, as the reward for mastery of this technique is easy early stocks on your opponent. Who cares if you win 70% of your friendlies or have a big GSP if you can never step up to challenge players better than yourself.

Your own character may have risky techniques that requires basically throwing games to master. For example, my current main Pikachu has a myriad of recovery options that make it very easy to make it back. However, as I've identified that my opponents were catching on to the fact that I often would first quick attack above the stage then to the ledge, I realized that I had to work on my more difficult, yet safer angles that involve dipping beneath the stage with my dash before snapping up. This latter technique has caused me to lose many stocks at very low percents (because when I up B downwards I often fail to input my second direction), yet I also know it is a safer option in the long term once my execution becomes more consistent.

One other more extreme version is an Ivysaur technique I have been working on. Ivy can be very vulnerable when attacking from the ledge, and I realized I needed a new option. I noticed Leffen was finding a way that he could very safely attack opponents attempting to ledge drop by dropping down off ledge, pressing up b, then quickly pressing down on his control stick (allowing his up b to extend beyond the ledge) and then angling at his opponent. This technique is very execution heavy and failure has meant death or forcing myself to switch to Charizard who fares even worse in these situations. Yet I attempt this technique all the time in games because that severe disadvantage that a failed execution represents now will provide me an important ledge play advantage in the future.

Some games I go into thinking "I want to focus on my RAR bair approaches" or I tell my friend "play the campiest Ness of your life, I need to work on getting around projectiles". As Pokemon Trainer some games I will play as only Charizard as this provides much more learning in more diverse scenarios than I would receive had I continued to reserve Charizard only for finishing stocks lasting 150%+ like I do when I play to win. I often find that playing with infinite stocks vs a friend is the best method for this as it is much easier to escape the fear of death and being beat to take the risks you need to take to elevate your gameplay.

And lastly, playing to win all the time creates an expectation that you will always win, and this can lead to an aversion to seeking out the best possible players you can, and taking opportunities when playing with them to adapt rather than attempt to dominate. When I took melee seriously I used to grind against some of Canada's top players in Ryan Ford, WeonX, and KirbyKaze, and I would be lucky to take a single game off of them after 6 hours and them trolling on a character they never play. KirbyKaze once got frustrated with me that I was not implementing the advice he game me about how I should be wavedashing out of shield because it is safer and adds a new mix up to my defensive options which he was easily exploiting. I told him that I needed time to adapt my playstyle to incorporate it, that all it does is make me make more errors, making me lose even harder. But the truth is that excuse was bull****. Is there any difference between losing 200 games by being 3 stocked vs 2 stocked because now I was SDing? Not really. I should have experimented and tried different things because what I had mastered was clearly not working. But I was determined to always play my best, and to push for any possibility that I could perform even slightly better than I did the previous game. My play to win attitude had me bashing my head against a brick wall over and over, but had I taken the opportunity to play to learn I may have grown so much more.

TLDR: You're asking the wrong question as winning has nothing to do with learning, and actively prioritizing winning comes at the cost of risk taking and experimenting which are more valuable for long term growth. Take the L for today so you get the W tomorrow.
 

nudie mags

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
6
#46
If you go into your practice matches wanting to win, it can be disappointing and discouraging if you have a bad match or just get stomped because someone's better than you. When you're practicing, you shouldn't be getting salty or angry, nothing is on the line. But if someone who is starting weights how they're improving on wins, this can be pretty demoralizing when they expand their circle and start playing new people in the scene.

When you're practicing, you should be focusing on your strings, combos, techs and general character knowledge. You want those fundamentals to become feel and muscle memory. I noticed if I'm playing for a win, some of that goes out the window for a possibility of a cheap strat, that may get a stock, then get you punished for 2 of your own stocks.

Think of like how people play normally, but when they're trying to bait the win, they'll play a lot more campy, maybe even spammy if they have a projectile. Just focus on making playing muscle memory and enjoy your progression, winning will come when those things start to click.
 
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