Is villager solo-viable?

[NEKO']

so i've been interested in using villager for quite a while now, however i'm also looking for a character i can solo main.
does villager need a secondary?
(55:45) matchups being totally doable i assume?

 

[BlazikenGod]

Villager can work without a secondary like some top villagers such as ranai does, but he benefits from using a secondary.

 

[NEKO']

Villager can work without a secondary like some top villagers such as ranai does, but he benefits from using a secondary.

ah thanks for the info, if you mind to awnser one more question, what are some matchups he struggles with? (the reason he needs a secondary?)

 

[Darklink401]

He doesn't need a secondary at all (I put him at top 10 in the game, maybe top 5) but it's something that does benefit him (Sheik is my personal pick for 'best Villager secondary') It's interesting, because most of Villager's unfortunate MUs are in the mid and low tiers, including the likes of Toon Link/Link, Megaman, Meta Knight, and Game and Watch.

 

[De Wolfe]

Thats interesting you mention G&W. I always thought that matchup was ok until I fought one recently that bucketed the Lloid explosion energy and killed me with throws into fully charged buckets at 0%. Is that a legit strategy or just gimmicks really? I feel like the matchup is kinda even otherwise.

He has his fair share of bad matchups vs the top tiers too though aswell imo. Sheik, Sonic and Fox to name a few (some say Pikachu and Rosalina also). Gives me doubts about him being solo viable, still a very strong character regardless.

 

[Darklink401]

Thats interesting you mention G&W. I always thought that matchup was ok until I fought one recently that bucketed the Lloid explosion energy and killed me with throws into fully charged buckets at 0%. Is that a legit strategy or just gimmicks really? I feel like the matchup is kinda even otherwise.

He has his fair share of bad matchups vs the top tiers too though aswell imo. Sheik, Sonic and Fox to name a few (some say Pikachu and Rosalina also). Gives me doubts about him being solo viable, still a very strong character regardless.

It's a gimmicky strategy xD

But what makes GW good vs Villager is that he has aerial disjoints (we generally do not very good vs swords, so thankfully most sword wielders suck~) and he has an invincible recovery, so we can't gimp him easy xD

Also I think it's pretty agreed by know that we win vs Sonic, are even vs Sheik, and lose only like 45-55 vs Fox/Pika/Rosa xD

In fact, the reason I put Villager so high in the tier list, is his competence vs the higher tiers, who while he doesn't WIN many matchups in the top 15, he is even or close to even with many of them, his worst possibly being a couple of 40-60s in Diddy Kong and maybe Mario. (unless you consider MK top 15, which I guess I kinda do xD)

 

[Moosseff]

If you had to secondary a char I would go for something that counters rosa (Unless you know how to deal with rosa as villager which can be hard) Because if you dont know how to deal with rosa its by far your worst matchup

 

[teddystalin]

It's a gimmicky strategy xD

Also I think it's pretty agreed by know that we win vs Sonic, are even vs Sheik, and lose only like 45-55 vs Fox/Pika/Rosa xD

In fact, the reason I put Villager so high in the tier list, is his competence vs the higher tiers, who while he doesn't WIN many matchups in the top 15, he is even or close to even with many of them, his worst possibly being a couple of 40-60s in Diddy Kong and maybe Mario. (unless you consider MK top 15, which I guess I kinda do xD)

I never really understood this whole "Villager loses to Fox" idea... Villager loves to edgeguard this character so much. Fox may be fast and strong on-stage, which can seem overwhelming (the main reason why characters like Falcon are so scary for newer Villagers), but Villager has the tools to manage.

Some examples of the MU at a high level:

BC vs GrimTurtle in which BC forces GrimTurtle off of Fox.

Ranai vs Nietono

Idk, paging @Volya for being the only person to put it down as an advantage in the MU Chart thread.

Imo the high/top tier characters Villager really struggles with are Rosa, Sheik, MK, and maybe Yoshi. Kinda torn on Sonic and Pika, personally.

 

[NEKO']

everyone, thanks a lot for the replies!
i will pick up villager for sure!

If you had to secondary a char I would go for something that counters rosa (Unless you know how to deal with rosa as villager which can be hard) Because if you dont know how to deal with rosa its by far your worst matchup

i main rosalina at the moment and know everything about her in and out, so i'll be fine in this MU since i know what she struggles with in the villager MU.

well...time to learn myself some villager !

 

[Mtn64]

I never really understood this whole "Villager loses to Fox" idea... Villager loves to edgeguard this character so much. Fox may be fast and strong on-stage, which can seem overwhelming (the main reason why characters like Falcon are so scary for newer Villagers), but Villager has the tools to manage.

Some examples of the MU at a high level:

BC vs GrimTurtle in which BC forces GrimTurtle off of Fox.

Ranai vs Nietono

Idk, paging @Volya for being the only person to put it down as an advantage in the MU Chart thread.

Imo the high/top tier characters Villager really struggles with are Rosa, Sheik, MK, and maybe Yoshi. Kinda torn on Sonic and Pika, personally.

No, the reason is not because it's overwhelming for newer players. I hate when complaints are claimed to be "inexperienced in the MU", I can go and show my background if I need proof of that, but there's no point when it's posted in the villy tournament results thread.
The reason we beat falcon is not only because of the trash recovery options he has, but he doesn't really have anything to approach villager with. Sure, he can try and bait out some lloids, but at the end of the day if villager true combos with fair x4 early, and then can sack ground approaches with dtilt and beat out BAir with pivot FTilt anti airs, along with having some great dash attack counters in his pivot options, taking some chip because you got baited a lloid or two a match is next to nothing.
Fox, on the other hand, has options to beat out villagers pivot options in a fight (foxs nair, ff BAir, DA) and options to recover fine along with plethora of options to get out of villagers juggle games. He has great pressure and being smaller than Mario, he isnt combo'd by falling UAir and has an easier time blocking grounded BAirs since fox knows villager has to commit to it. Furthermore, fox goes through FSmash, BAir, FAir, and NAir when UpB is actively going in a direction during the start of the movement until he starts to lose momentum, and clanks pellets with datk based on where the hitbox is.
That isnt to say the matchup isnt winnable, because it is. Villager can still wall Fox out, get some good gimps, and anti air with UAirs and utilts, but because "Villager has tools to manage" doesn't = "Villager goes even to Fox."


IMO, on the topic of other high tiers, I say we beat sonic since we can disrupt all of his approaches and beat his aerials. Sheiks a fine MU, we can kill early with utilt, dtilt, fsmash, bthrow, jab-->axe and pivot axe. I haven't fought Dabuz so I cant talk about Rosa MU. Yoshi is fine, just comes down to a really patient midrange game and lots of perfect shields on the eggs. MK is alright for us, just be careful since he's one of the few characters that gives Villager trouble trying to combo break. Pika wins the MU (55:45?)because of his ability to skip neutral and go through lloid, effectively having the sonic MU disease (no lloid in neutral) unless pika is it hitstun, but he has more approach options and ways to challenge neutral options and counter-camp with thunder shock (Way more effective than you'd think when provide with good dtilts and fairs.)

 

[teddystalin]

No, the reason is not because it's overwhelming for newer players. I hate when complaints are claimed to be "inexperienced in the MU", I can go and show my background if I need proof of that, but there's no point when it's posted in the villy tournament results thread.
The reason we beat falcon is not only because of the trash recovery options he has, but he doesn't really have anything to approach villager with. Sure, he can try and bait out some lloids, but at the end of the day if villager true combos with fair x4 early, and then can sack ground approaches with dtilt and beat out BAir with pivot FTilt anti airs, along with having some great dash attack counters in his pivot options, taking some chip because you got baited a lloid or two a match is next to nothing.
Fox, on the other hand, has options to beat out villagers pivot options in a fight (foxs nair, ff BAir, DA) and options to recover fine along with plethora of options to get out of villagers juggle games. He has great pressure and being smaller than Mario, he isnt combo'd by falling UAir and has an easier time blocking grounded BAirs since fox knows villager has to commit to it. Furthermore, fox goes through FSmash, BAir, FAir, and NAir when UpB is actively going in a direction during the start of the movement until he starts to lose momentum, and clanks pellets with datk based on where the hitbox is.
That isnt to say the matchup isnt winnable, because it is. Villager can still wall Fox out, get some good gimps, and anti air with UAirs and utilts, but because "Villager has tools to manage" doesn't = "Villager goes even to Fox."


IMO, on the topic of other high tiers, I say we beat sonic since we can disrupt all of his approaches and beat his aerials. Sheiks a fine MU, we can kill early with utilt, dtilt, fsmash, bthrow, jab-->axe and pivot axe. I haven't fought Dabuz so I cant talk about Rosa MU. Yoshi is fine, just comes down to a really patient midrange game and lots of perfect shields on the eggs. MK is alright for us, just be careful since he's one of the few characters that gives Villager trouble trying to combo break. Pika wins the MU (55:45?)because of his ability to skip neutral and go through lloid, effectively having the sonic MU disease (no lloid in neutral) unless pika is it hitstun, but he has more approach options and ways to challenge neutral options and counter-camp with thunder shock (Way more effective than you'd think when provide with good dtilts and fairs.)

Woah woah woah woah woah. When I said that Fox overwhelms newer Villagers, that's not me saying "Y'all suck at the MU; git gud." I'm a new Villager (I'm getting better, but he's not on my Ike's level yet.) I learn a lot through analyzing tournament sets however - I've seen a fair deal of yours, and I'm not questioning your credentials. My response came after Darklink401 said Fox/Villager is as bad as Rosa/Villager and worse than Sheik/Villager which I believe to be patently untrue.

It's funny you bring up the Sonic MU - if you go back in the MU and Video threads to the start of the year or so, you're pretty much the only person who says that Villager goes even with or beats Sonic. You'll find experienced Villagers like Antonykun, Player-1, and Zee talking about how they struggle against Sonic (also of note - Player-1 and MJG agreeing that Villager loses to Falcon back in March). The theory was there, but as time went on, you could see things like Ranai never dropping a set to Komorikiri's Sonic. Now if you look at the MU chart discussion, the most experienced Villagers who posted there had Sonic as either an even or advantaged matchup. As with, say, MK vs ZSS, the theory hasn't lined up with top level results.

And that's the place where my comments on the Fox matchup came from: in all my spectating, I haven't seen Fox prove to be as significant a threat to Villager as Sheik or Rosa or MK. I'm not in a position to offer a lot of theory, but I think it's worth discussing that the theory hasn't been strongly supported by results in this case.

 

[Mtn64]

Woah woah woah woah woah. When I said that Fox overwhelms newer Villagers, that's not me saying "Y'all suck at the MU; git gud." I'm a new Villager (I'm getting better, but he's not on my Ike's level yet.) I learn a lot through analyzing tournament sets however - I've seen a fair deal of yours, and I'm not questioning your credentials. My response came after Darklink401 said Fox/Villager is as bad as Rosa/Villager and worse than Sheik/Villager which I believe to be patently untrue.

It's funny you bring up the Sonic MU - if you go back in the MU and Video threads to the start of the year or so, you're pretty much the only person who says that Villager goes even with or beats Sonic. You'll find experienced Villagers like Antonykun, Player-1, and Zee talking about how they struggle against Sonic (also of note - Player-1 and MJG agreeing that Villager loses to Falcon back in March). The theory was there, but as time went on, you could see things like Ranai never dropping a set to Komorikiri's Sonic. Now if you look at the MU chart discussion, the most experienced Villagers who posted there had Sonic as either an even or advantaged matchup. As with, say, MK vs ZSS, the theory hasn't lined up with top level results.

And that's the place where my comments on the Fox matchup came from: in all my spectating, I haven't seen Fox prove to be as significant a threat to Villager as Sheik or Rosa or MK. I'm not in a position to offer a lot of theory, but I think it's worth discussing that the theory hasn't been strongly supported by results in this case.

Mmm.. Maybe I came off too aggressive? Sorry.
As for the sonic MU, I call it a disease since lloid is meh in that mu. I still stick to my original opinion on villy being even (honestly, advantaged) in the MU due to all the options (s)he has to beat out sonics approach and spacing game.
Honestly, the only reason I think Fox has an easier time vs Villy than Sheik is because of all the counter options Fox has vs Villys reactive tools, while possessing more consistent kill options than Sheik in the matchup. What are the dash speeds of Fox and Sheik? Wondering how fast the difference actually is.
Maybe it's just me though, I just feel like as we see the villy (and fox) meta grow we'll see more issues with fox in the future.

 

[MJG]

Woah woah woah woah woah. When I said that Fox overwhelms newer Villagers, that's not me saying "Y'all suck at the MU; git gud." I'm a new Villager (I'm getting better, but he's not on my Ike's level yet.) I learn a lot through analyzing tournament sets however - I've seen a fair deal of yours, and I'm not questioning your credentials. My response came after Darklink401 said Fox/Villager is as bad as Rosa/Villager and worse than Sheik/Villager which I believe to be patently untrue.

It's funny you bring up the Sonic MU - if you go back in the MU and Video threads to the start of the year or so, you're pretty much the only person who says that Villager goes even with or beats Sonic. You'll find experienced Villagers like Antonykun, Player-1, and Zee talking about how they struggle against Sonic (also of note - Player-1 and MJG agreeing that Villager loses to Falcon back in March). The theory was there, but as time went on, you could see things like Ranai never dropping a set to Komorikiri's Sonic. Now if you look at the MU chart discussion, the most experienced Villagers who posted there had Sonic as either an even or advantaged matchup. As with, say, MK vs ZSS, the theory hasn't lined up with top level results.

And that's the place where my comments on the Fox matchup came from: in all my spectating, I haven't seen Fox prove to be as significant a threat to Villager as Sheik or Rosa or MK. I'm not in a position to offer a lot of theory, but I think it's worth discussing that the theory hasn't been strongly supported by results in this case.

I don't actually remember saying that Falcon beats villager (nor have I ever felt this way). I know P-1 felt strongly about it. Villager has the tools to beat any character and he has a decent MU spread. I agree about Sheik, Rosa and MK being losing MUs for villager

 

[teddystalin]

I don't actually remember saying that Falcon beats villager (nor have I ever felt this way). I know P-1 felt strongly about it. Villager has the tools to beat any character and he has a decent MU spread. I agree about Sheik, Rosa and MK being losing MUs for villager

You said it here, albeit reluctantly. Does Player-1 really use Villager anymore nowadays? Seems like he's gone full Diddy.

I really don't think it's 60:40. I know you play with a good falcon down in GA and I've had my share of Falcon play as well. Just have to anticipate falcons speed really but it's not nearly as tedious as sheik. I watched you play it and falcon mostly capitalized on openings rather than using speed to get past walls (or to take us across the stage as he grabs and takes us past lloid).

EDIT: I agree with Falcon beating villager...for now
EDIT2: My view on MU ratios may be skewed too. I haven't looked at MUs that way in awhile though. Just aware of what strengths and weaknesses I have in said MU.

 

[MJG]

I was wondering if you'd be willing to dig or not lmao but I stand by what I said as of recent. My main problem with even talking about MU ratios is that the game is not only progressing still (baby game with a year under it's belt) but the pros/cons should be focused on in said MUs anyways.

 

[Deleted member]

MUs have relatively great spread, most of them are in his pocket or even. Just a couple of MUs give the opponent some advantage, but not greatly.

( are his possibly bad MUs, but they are relatively close to 50:50)

I see as a Solo-Main, but having a speedy secondary main
() are good choices to pick, since it can shrug off some of his bad MUs.

Hope I helped in something! Good luck grabbing ,
and make them FEAR YOU!