Smash 3DS Is this the "Campiest" Smash game?

[SpeedBoost]

Ok sorry if there is already a thread on this but I got to post my thoughts.

So I just have been playing Smash 3DS since JP launch and I have realized something. THIS by FAR has to be the campiest Smash game of all time.
-Fall Speed being slow.
-Combo game being very small and inconstant.
-Due to rolling being way too op.
-Stage Blast Zones being HUGE!
Characters like Little Mac, Duck Hunt Dog and Bowser just destroy in the game due how easy it is to camp in this game. And that really bothers me, I feel I am more of an offensive player and players like me will not be able to shine in this game since all you can do is roll, then BOOM F-smash.

Sorry if this sounds a bit like a "Tard-Rage" I honestly just don't get this play style of Smash. It seems like a more campier Brawl.
Thoughts?

 

[Gabukin]

I agree with this, Smash 4 Definitely rewards you more for defensive play then offensive which really sucks. I'm also a player who loves being on the offensive rather then defensive. I like being able to rushdown my opponent, but that's nearly impossible with the way rolls are currently.
Sadly I think sticking with Melee or PM is the better choice for offensive styled players, To play smash 4 you've got to become a more defensive player and learn how to camp yourself. ~Don't forget to bring your Marshmallows.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

I agree with this, Smash 4 Definitely rewards you more for defensive play then offensive which really sucks. I'm also a player who loves being on the offensive rather then defensive. I like being able to rushdown my opponent, but that's nearly impossible with the way rolls are currently.
Sadly I think sticking with Melee or PM is the better choice for offensive styled players, To play smash 4 you've got to become a more defensive player and learn how to camp yourself. ~Don't forget to bring your Marshmallows.

Learn how to read, and rolling isn't a problem anymore. Rolling has never been a get out of jail free card.

 

[Naisora]

It's still hard even with reads, but yeah I feel what you mean. Some are hard to punish though, even when you read them. For example I play a Mac player, and I know he always likes to roll right whenever I run towards him. So I keep running and predict his roll, but because of the roll recovery the grab punish doesn't work. In that case I suppose I was supposed to grab faster or use a sex-kick or something. But yeah its possible, but its still a bigger nuisance then it should be imo.

 

[Gabukin]

Learn how to read, and rolling isn't a problem anymore. Rolling has never been a get out of jail free card.

That's not true, I've been in plenty of scenarios where I read my opponents roll, charged a smash, and they were still able to roll again (or shield) before the smash come out.

 

[Naisora]

That's not true, I've been in plenty of scenarios where I read my opponents roll, charged a smash, and they were still able to roll again (or shield) before the smash come out.

Exactly, but in brawl, (or pretty much any other smash game) the roll endlag was big enough to make sure that almost never happened.

 

[Gawain]

Wholeheartedly disagree. I've been playing the game extremely aggressively and I've got an 88 percent win rate after more than 300 games. There's nothing I can tell you that will stop you from blaming the game though.

 

[Terotrous]

Are you guys playing a different game where Sheik isn't #1 right now?

Little Mac, Bowser, and ZSS are also thought to be very good, and they're also all very offensively-minded characters.


Sure, there's Duck Hunt Dog, Rob, and Samus, and they're all viable, but at current they don't really dominate the game.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

That's not true, I've been in plenty of scenarios where I read my opponents roll, charged a smash, and they were still able to roll again (or shield) before the smash come out.

Get better timing then. They aren't invincible through out the whole roll y'know. Aggressive play is rewarding. Ask anyone that's played me, and they'll tell you how unsafe rolling can be.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

One of the big things I'm feeling is that the lag time after an attack, especially smashes, seems to have increased a tremendous amount. This makes the dominating strategy to wait for your opponent to try a smash, miss, and THEN punish.

All anecdotal, of course. Any number of changes could be the reason, and any adjustments in play could always change that.

 

[Zork]

The "I win insert large percent here of my games in For Glory mode going aggro therefore this game is aggressive" argument has no merit whatsoever.

The majority of For Glory players from what I've seen are a joke. Everything they do is so punishable to the point where if all you know how to do is shield grab, you'll probably demolish most of them.

When you see top players going at it in high stakes tournament settings where people play to win it tells a very different story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_EClaO7Sg

In cases like this if you see consistently aggressive play (which clearly wasn't the case here) only then you can say you have evidence for the game being super aggressive. Right now this is hardly the case.

I played Brawl competitively so I'm no stranger to defensive play, just stating that's what the game is mostly about right now. Though at least Brawl had more autocancel short hop aerials that were relatively safe on shield. They've added lag to a lot of moves in this game for no reason.

Keep in mind most of the aggression you are currently seeing happens after someone gets opened up largely. The actual mid range game is quite docile. Some notable players are even saying it seems the best option in general is to camp and counter attack.

 

[Gawain]

The "I win insert large percent here of my games in For Glory mode going aggro therefore this game is aggressive" argument has no merit whatsoever.

The majority of For Glory players from what I've seen are a joke. Everything they do is so punishable to the point where if all you know how to do is shield grab, you'll probably demolish most of them.

When you see top players going at it in high stakes tournament settings where people play to win it tells a very different story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_EClaO7Sg

In cases like this if you see consistently aggressive play (which clearly wasn't the case here) only then you can say you have evidence for the game being super aggressive. Right now this is hardly the case.

I played Brawl competitively so I'm no stranger to defensive play, just stating that's what the game is mostly about right now. Keep in mind most of the aggression you are currently seeing happens after someone gets opened up largely. The actual mid range game is quite docile. Some notable players are even saying it seems the best option in general is to camp and counter attack.

Fair enough point but it's still way too early to say that some competition in the first month of release is indicative of how the game will play. There was tons of camping in the early Melee days too. Defensive play is always a winning strategy in most games' early lifetimes.

 

[Zork]

I know, I'm just saying there is currently not a whole lot of evidence to suggest the game will be aggro oriented. The 3DS also plays in a role in this I feel. Players can't space, move and be as technical as they want currently. This of course, limits aggression.

 

[SmashBro99]

Wholeheartedly disagree. I've been playing the game extremely aggressively and I've got an 88 percent win rate after more than 300 games. There's nothing I can tell you that will stop you from blaming the game though.

Same, I have a 92% win % with near 200 games played, most used characters are:

Pacman, can be defensive, but I play him aggressively as well

Mario, who is aggressive and goes for combos

DK, who GETS camped. lol

I'm not quite sure what game you guys are playing.

 

[Gawain]

I know, I'm just saying there is currently not a whole lot of evidence to suggest the game will be aggro oriented. The 3DS also plays in a role in this I feel. Players can't space, move and be as technical as they want currently. This of course, limits aggression.

I'm just not seeing how there is much evidence to support the other side either. I watched that series that you posted and even that had plenty of aggression. This isn't Brawl we're talking about here. I frequently go to events like Evo, I'm well aware of how long the matches took in Brawl and how long they do take even in Melee. I've still not seen anything as bad as an Hbox vs Armada Young Link counterpick match. The game is fine, I'm not seeing the allegations of campiness at all to be honest. Just normal amounts of defensive play for a fighting game's early months.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So a game in which Sheik and Little Mac dominate is one where you can't play aggressively? I'm pretty sure I've seen high-level matchups in which good offensive players beat defensive ones. Obviously 3DS For Glory is going to favor camping because of lag/controls along with the fact that most players will hand you free hits on a silver platter, but it's not as if aggro players don't have viable character options as long as they play smart.

 

[Zork]

I'm just not seeing how there is much evidence to support the other side either. I watched that series that you posted and even that had plenty of aggression. This isn't Brawl we're talking about here. I frequently go to events like Evo, I'm well aware of how long the matches took in Brawl and how long they do take even in Melee. I've still not seen anything as bad as an Hbox vs Armada Young Link counterpick match. The game is fine, I'm not seeing the allegations of campiness at all to be honest. Just normal amounts of defensive play for a fighting game's early months.

That set had matches that took 4-5 minutes on TWO stocks, not 3. Factoring this in going by this set (of course you'd need much more evidence) Smash 4 is actually slower than Brawl on average. Unless you are suggesting every Brawl match took 7+ mins which was far from the case.

There is nothing wrong about liking campy play. But to suggest it isn't campy is absurd. Especially when you take an example of match that converted to 3 stocks would have taken 6-8 mins and then state it's not as slow as Brawl. You're right, it's slower.

 

[Gawain]

That said had matches that took 4-5 minutes on TWO stocks, not 3. Factoring this in going by this set (of course you'd need much more evidence) Smash 4 is actually slower than Brawl on average. Unless you are suggesting every Brawl match took 7+ mins which was far from the case.

There is nothing wrong about liking campy play. But to suggest it isn't campy is absurd. Especially when you take an example of match that converted to 3 stocks would have taken 6-8 mins and then state it's not as slow as Brawl. You're right, it's slower.

Smash 4 isn't Brawl. It shouldn't follow Brawl's stock ruleset. And 6+ minutes is about how long almost every single one of HBox's rounds at Evo14 took. And that's in the Melee's current state. 3-4 minutes is your average top level melee game's length. And the average in that series was closer to 3-4 per round than 4-5. Furthermore, those numbers aren't even bad considering the early life. I'm still not seeing this as evidence, I'm sorry. It's just too early, and the stages in that series were only FD variants.

 

[SmashBro99]

Once people learn how to get kills the match time won't be that long, it's not too hard. I could see it being bumped up to 3 stocks when people learn the kill moves instead of just rolling around eachother.

 

[Zork]

Smash 4 isn't Brawl. It shouldn't follow Brawl's stock ruleset. And 6+ minutes is about how long almost every single one of HBox's rounds at Evo14 took. And that's in the Melee's current state. 3-4 minutes is your average top level melee game's length. And the average in that series was closer to 3-4 per round than 4-5. Furthermore, those numbers aren't even bad considering the early life. I'm still not seeing this as evidence, I'm sorry. It's just too early, and the stages in that series were only FD variants.

No it was about 3:30 to 5. Measure it if you don't believe me. And keep in mind this was a matchup where one character was trying to get in and the other trying to keep them out. At this rate high level matches with a 5 minute timer featuring 2 campy characters instead of just 1 will probably also feature constant timeouts. Even if the game ends up a bit more agressive.

Also you can't reduce stocks and then say a game is just as fast as previous titles, that's completely unfair. By that logic I can show you 1 stock Brawl tournament matches that took 0-2 minutes. Is that proof that Brawl is the fastest Smash game? Case in point your argument makes no sense. You are using two different standards to measure speed.

 

[Dezmonsta757]

I'm more of a defensive player than offensive but I don't camping or spamming prjectiles

 

[Gawain]

No it was about 3:30 to 5. Measure it if you don't believe me. And keep in mind this was a matchup where one character was trying to get in and the other trying to keep them out. At this rate high level matches with a 5 minute timer featuring 2 campy characters instead of just 1 will probably also feature constant timeouts. Even if the game ends up a bit more agressive.

Also you can't reduce stocks and then say a game is just as fast as previous titles, that's completely unfair. By that logic I can show you 1 stock Brawl tournament matches that took 0-2 minutes. Is that proof that Brawl is the fastest Smash game? Case in point your argument makes no sense. You are using two different standards to measure speed.

I didn't say that reducing stocks made the game faster. All I said is that it's not Brawl and shouldn't follow Brawl's stock rules. Increasing stock or decreasing it doesn't make the game any faster, it just makes the rounds end earlier. I never even implied anything else.

And the time it takes to finish rounds does not increase unless the game favors defensive play. Round times decreased in both 64 and in Melee as the games' lives went on. Brawl is the exception because people found techniques and ways to exploit the games mechanics that favored defensive play. Everything about what people have been discovering in regards to this game is not even close to that. The results of early tournaments are ultimately meaningless as they are not indicative of how things are going to be months down the road. Techniques that people are discovering do.

 

[[TSON]]

That's not true, I've been in plenty of scenarios where I read my opponents roll, charged a smash, and they were still able to roll again (or shield) before the smash come out.

You're not playing Brawl, you're playing SSB4. If you go into SSB4 trying to time your reads the same as Brawl you might as well go play Brawl because it's never gonna work.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

I'm more of a defensive player than offensive but I don't camping or spamming prjectiles

So, you, uh, do what exactly? I suppose you could be waiting to punish your opponents moves, but then you might as well be camping out, trying to deal as much long-distance damage as possible.

 

[Gabukin]

Wholeheartedly disagree. I've been playing the game extremely aggressively and I've got an 88 percent win rate after more than 300 games. There's nothing I can tell you that will stop you from blaming the game though.

You can do very well with aggressive play but its more rewarding to play defensively.

You're not playing Brawl, you're playing SSB4. If you go into SSB4 trying to time your reads the same as Brawl you might as well go play Brawl because it's never gonna work.

I barley played brawl though. ~ Came here from PM
I do need to work on my timing a little more I guess

 

[Zork]

A couple of highly situational Advanced techniques don't suddenly make a game more aggressive overall. You'd be shocked if I told you the types of ATs that exist in Brawl (mostly character specific like here) that mostly only give benefits to the aggressor. That doesn't mean the game overall becomes largely more aggressive. Btw Brawl has never been at Evo seriously so whatever you saw there tells you nothing about the game or how similar this game is to it (trust me, much more knowledgable players than you will tell you it's quite similar).

What can make the game more agressive however is more aggressive characters being shown to be more viable in the long run, people becoming more technical, better at edge guarding, exploiting the new ledge mechanics, better at punishing rolls etc. It could happen but there's no way to tell if it will at this point. A game doesn't always become more aggressive overtime.

 

[31gma]

Wouldn't say campy, it just really rewards defensive play while punishing aggression easily. At least that's my experience on For Glory Mode, the input lag really tends to be dreadful. Ahh well, it's still Day 1 for me though, gotta adapt but I hope there's a patch that'll add recovery lag for dodging frequently while only allowing air-dodging once.

 

[mangamusicfan]

Learn to read the game boost your mind game.
if you all do this well you shouldnt have a problem.
this smash is maby a lil more defensive based but you can get good reward with good offensive play.

 

[Reila]

This game is the polar opposite of a defensive/campy game. I have no idea what OP is talking about.

Sure, there's Duck Hunt Dog, Rob, and Samus, and they're all viable, but at current they don't really dominate the game.

Duck Hunt. The name is Duck Hunt.

 

[Lichi]

I wonder how many people more feel the urge to point out that they think the game is campy which has been discussed in numerous threads already.
All I can say is this:
I play very aggressively.
I am not an extraordinary good player. Likely not even 'good'.
I win way more games than I lose.

 

[ferioku]

Learn to punish rolls. I wreck those campers and I never play defensively.

If you find it too difficult maybe this isn't your game.
You are also forgetting that we are playing with a 3ds, not the Wii U version. There will be q lot less camping and easier approaches with the gamecube controller. I can't even play the 3ds version to its fullest because I get scared that it will break

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JQSWSuftc7U

Yeaaah
"Smash for is the campiest smash"

 

[LiamMail]

Well I am sure Sakurai tried "Anti-Camping" by removing ledge hogging
I think it depends... Like Chudat, he's campy even in PM

But, what makes the game so campy? (I haven't got the game yet)

 

[ferioku]

Well I am sure Sakurai tried "Anti-Camping" by removing ledge hogging
I think it depends... Like Chudat, he's campy even in PM

But, what makes the game so campy? (I haven't got the game yet)

It's all in their heads. It's easy to punish! I've beaten the majority of campy players. The minority I lost to because they lag terribly

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

I like to think that offensive and defensive playstyles are relatively balanced with one another this time around compared to Melee's offensive preference and Brawl's defensive preference.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Obviously you're going to find one or another but I feel like For Glory is not a good way to check if something is campy or not.

Play on battlefield, for instance, is a lot less streamlined than say, gameplay on an FD stage.

Too early to reliably tell but I'm enjoying it as is by playing smart offensively. Most people that hang around in shields have to roll on proper reaction and when that gets predictable you can...well, punish it fairly easily. Granted this is only online, grains of salt everywhere.

 

[Triangleman]

No

This is probably the least campy iteration of the game I have played and I'm only playing against casuals online. The streams I watch of tourny players also is quite the opposite. I'm actually shocked to hear that anyone thinks this is a campy game at all. How many of you have watched some high level play? It's not campy at all.

 

[ferioku]

No

This is probably the least campy iteration of the game I have played and I'm only playing against casuals online. The streams I watch of tourny players also is quite the opposite. I'm actually shocked to hear that anyone thinks this is a campy game at all. How many of you have watched some high level play? It's not campy at all.

Least, I would say nay, the most is freaking pushing it though. The game is brand new, we are only just discovering the AT's, we haven't got the Wii U version, we are playing with hand helds which restricts a lot of movement's and tech's. We are playing against casuals online, and even so, the game isn't campy like what the topic starter is saying.

I didn't even realize there was another topic about this, which shows the hate he has towards the game, and to top it up, we have videos like Nairo vs False which aren't campy.

 

[Terotrous]

The "I win insert large percent here of my games in For Glory mode going aggro therefore this game is aggressive" argument has no merit whatsoever.

The majority of For Glory players from what I've seen are a joke. Everything they do is so punishable to the point where if all you know how to do is shield grab, you'll probably demolish most of them.

When you see top players going at it in high stakes tournament settings where people play to win it tells a very different story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_EClaO7Sg

In cases like this if you see consistently aggressive play (which clearly wasn't the case here) only then you can say you have evidence for the game being super aggressive. Right now this is hardly the case.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5S1OsIriDFMoUnYClvA8xIx
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP

Watch Shockwave. Denti and Bwett are currently the players to beat, and both are pretty aggressive.

 

[straydoggywog]

Pretty sure, it's just that mostly brawl players are playing the game and they camp really well. 'cause brawl. I won't say it's an aggressive based game until more has happened though.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

No. It isn't. Brawl was still worse. A lot of aggressive play styles do really well against campy characters. Campy characters tend to set the pace of the match but if you can provoke and bait them into your your pace. If you're basing the game off For Glory then yeah it'll feel like that. As people mentioned watch the tournaments like Shockwave and invitational tournaments. You'll see a whole other side of the game.

Rolling is so easy to punish honestly. Once you learn what your opponent does (usually within the first minute) you can punish. Characters can ALL punish rolls. If you see someone nonstop rolling just sit there and they will roll into you.

And for the last time Blast Zones are fine. Players KO one another at decent percents. Offstage gameplay is exactly what people need to learn to do. It'll reduce the game time greatly.

tl:dr The game is fine. I'm not sure why everyone is trying to create flame bait.