Is Substitute Really THAT Slow?!

[Y2Kay]

So last Wednesday I was playing this Ness Main at my high school named Chris. Is was playing him as Greninja, and getting my butt beat pretty badly. I was already in kill range and at my last stock and he was on his first stock with 55%iirc. I was right above him in the air and he attempted to style on me with PK Thunder. I read it and used my counter. This is when things get ridiculous. While I disappear from the counter animation, he manages to send the pk thunderbolt into himself launches straight into me before I land the kick! I was coming down onto him from above and sent myself right into it. My salt levels increased dramatically; I probably have diabetes now (bad joke). I just wanted to know......How? Why? Is this the reason people hate this move?

 

[Jetkick]

Anyone who says its bad is probably bad themselves. Did you change the direction of which you were attacking? If not your problem is right there.

 

[Ludiloco]

90% of scrub moments in this game come from challenging pkt2. Just don't do it unless he's way out there.

 

[Y2Kay]

Anyone who says its bad is probably bad themselves. Did you change the direction of which you were attacking? If not your problem is right there.

I attacked from above like this:

90% of scrub moments in this game come from challenging pkt2. Just don't do it unless he's way out there.

Consider this lesson learned.

 

[Snackss]

Substitute is slow enough that you can have it activate and then get hit by a smash attack as Greninja reappears. It's pretty dumb, so I would probably suggest angling it upwards.

 

[Y2Kay]

Substitute is slow enough that you can have it activate and then get hit by a smash attack as Greninja reappears. It's pretty dumb, so I would probably suggest angling it upwards.

Good to know!

 

[bc1910]

Substitute is crap in the air.

On the ground, upward angled sub is actually pretty good.

 

[TeunCornflakes]

This is something I was struck by some time ago:

At least Greninja isn't the only one.

 

[Jetkick]

Substitute is crap in the air.

On the ground, upward angled sub is actually pretty good.

Its just a matter of knowing how to use it. it can be an other worldly weapon in the air if you know how to use it.

 

[bc1910]

It's way too slow to have any real use in the air unless your opponent is gonna land with landing lag.

It's good for defending against certain projectile edgeguards though.

 

[Jetkick]

It's way too slow to have any real use in the air unless your opponent is gonna land with landing lag.

It's good for defending against certain projectile edgeguards though.

Again, you have to know how to use it. when i say "know how to use it" i mean taking into account the amount of lag the move being countered has, and knowing whether using it will bear results or not. its not a move you`ll get results from just for getting it activated like all the others.

 

[Megamang]

Perhaps you could give an example in a MU or situation that its useful, because i rarely use it at all.

 

[Step]

Perhaps you could give an example in a MU or situation that its useful, because i rarely use it at all.

In my opinion, rarely using it at all is the right way to use it. This is not because it is a 'bad' move or anything. While it can be very unsafe, I view it as my trump card, which I can use to catch my opponent completely off guard once, and that can be enough.

In my own experience, here are a couple cases that I have used Substitute with success: When fighting Luigi, and he is spacing with fireballs, watch his habits and how many fireballs he tends to throw out before going in for a grab, counter the fireball and catch him unprepared as he tried to grab you. When fighting a Link, I noticed he got a lot of mileage out of Dthrow to Usmash, so when he tried to do that to me, I countered the second swing of Usmash to come up from below him while he is still locked in the smash animation.

These are just a couple practical examples. Basically just hold that move back as your tactical ace-in-the-hole. Never throw it out casually in a match, because the danger you put yourself in by using that ability scales up exponentially based on how much the opponent expects it. In the previous listed uses, my opponents literally shook/jumped/jerked in their chair because they were so surprised/confused by what had just happened (Which is hilariously satisfying btw). That's how it should be every time.

 

[GooberGaming]

In my opinion, rarely using it at all is the right way to use it. This is not because it is a 'bad' move or anything. While it can be very unsafe, I view it as my trump card, which I can use to catch my opponent completely off guard once, and that can be enough.

In my own experience, here are a couple cases that I have used Substitute with success: When fighting Luigi, and he is spacing with fireballs, watch his habits and how many fireballs he tends to throw out before going in for a grab, counter the fireball and catch him unprepared as he tried to grab you. When fighting a Link, I noticed he got a lot of mileage out of Dthrow to Usmash, so when he tried to do that to me, I countered the second swing of Usmash to come up from below him while he is still locked in the smash animation.

These are just a couple practical examples. Basically just hold that move back as your tactical ace-in-the-hole. Never throw it out casually in a match, because the danger you put yourself in by using that ability scales up exponentially based on how much the opponent expects it. In the previous listed uses, my opponents literally shook/jumped/jerked in their chair because they were so surprised/confused by what had just happened (Which is hilariously satisfying btw). That's how it should be every time.

I never thought about countering Link's D-Throw Up-Smash combo. I'm definitely try using it the next I play against a Link!