Is Smash Brothers 4 doubles dead already??? (funny video)

[warriorman222]

Pik-a-Watch is more OP than Meta Knight from Brawl and the Metal Blade combined!

Nah, Meta Knight glide twice, L cancel, shield in the air, glide from one side of Temple and back with both glides, become invisible and invincible and glitch through custom maps. He was way too broken.

 

[8-peacock-8]

That was amazing.

 

[MajorMajora]

Why is it, again, that doubles need to have team attack on?

 

[warriorman222]

Why is it, again, that doubles need to have team attack on?

The combos you can do when your hits don't have to worry about hitting anyone other than the victims are so insane that you could create the new Wombo Combo in the time it takes for the other guy to respawn.

 

[GideonSmash]

The combos you can do when your hits don't have to worry about hitting anyone other than the victims are so insane that you could create the new Wombo Combo in the time it takes for the other guy to respawn.

Haha!
Happy feet! That ain't falco! THAT AIN'T FALCO! WOOOW WHOOAAA

Yea but in all seriousness I think you're right, real competitive players would just kick everyone's butt if team attack was off...

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, I'm confused about the team attack off. It's not like one team has it on and the other has it off. Both teams can pull of ridiculous combos, but they're also susceptible. Also, you have a teammate to bail you out of ridiculous combos. I'm new to doubles, but the posts above make it seem like it makes an uneven playing field, which I don't see. It just promotes aggressive play (which people like... right?).

Game & Pika is pretty much Game & Over. Even if there is a counter strategy against it (use a character w/ a counter), you can bait the counter and just keep it as a punish. You cannot prevent it, and even if it misses they can just do it again. Team attack off simply can't be worse than this.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yeah, I'm confused about the team attack off. It's not like one team has it on and the other has it off. Both teams can pull of ridiculous combos, but they're also susceptible. Also, you have a teammate to bail you out of ridiculous combos. I'm new to doubles, but the posts above make it seem like it makes an uneven playing field, which I don't see. It just promotes aggressive play (which people like... right?).

Game & Pika is pretty much Game & Over. Even if there is a counter strategy against it (use a character w/ a counter), you can bait the counter and just keep it as a punish. You cannot prevent it, and even if it misses they can just do it again. Team attack off simply can't be worse than this.

Trust me. The shenanigans available in Team Attack OFF are the worst. In the old days, Fox just held his reflector in front of Falco/Samus/InsertSpammerHere. If anything managed to come back, Fox just sent it right back. It's really bad. This G&W strategy is an anomaly. Team Attack ON leads to way better matches/strategy overall.

 

[Locke 06]

Trust me. The shenanigans available in Team Attack OFF are the worst. In the old days, Fox just held his reflector in front of Falco/Samus/InsertSpammerHere. If anything managed to come back, Fox just sent it right back. It's really bad. This G&W strategy is an anomaly. Team Attack ON leads to way better matches/strategy overall.

That really doesn't sound that bad. Samus/InsertSpammerHere can't camp out 2 people by her/himself especially with platforms. If you were to make that a team, I'd just have one person shield the charge shot/spam and the other pop up from behind to punish the reflector. The person shielding could have a reflector in order to freeze Fox from releasing his reflector (or better yet, a counter). I thought TA Off shenanigans would be more like 2 MK's trading off mach tornado-ing infinitely (unknown if that's a possible strategy... just theorizing).

Ignoring the G&W strategy (which works with not just Pikachu), you still have things like activating your teammate's counters to amplify damage/knockback. Ex. Samus charge shot + Little Mac slip counter. The slip counter is decently hard to punish and the hitbox comes out fast and stays out for a while. That'll do 36-37% of damage along with much more knockback than any normal move with such a low startup. Also, Samus will be safe from the Mac hitbox since she can activate it from afar. Counters are, by design, defensive maneuvers, but they become offensive maneuvers with Team Attack on.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

That really doesn't sound that bad. Samus/InsertSpammerHere can't camp out 2 people by her/himself especially with platforms. If you were to make that a team, I'd just have one person shield the charge shot/spam and the other pop up from behind to punish the reflector. The person shielding could have a reflector in order to freeze Fox from releasing his reflector (or better yet, a counter). I thought TA Off shenanigans would be more like 2 MK's trading off mach tornado-ing infinitely (unknown if that's a possible strategy... just theorizing).

Ignoring the G&W strategy (which works with not just Pikachu), you still have things like activating your teammate's counters to amplify damage/knockback. Ex. Samus charge shot + Little Mac slip counter. The slip counter is decently hard to punish and the hitbox comes out fast and stays out for a while. That'll do 36-37% of damage along with much more knockback than any normal move with such a low startup. Also, Samus will be safe from the Mac hitbox since she can activate it from afar. Counters are, by design, defensive maneuvers, but they become offensive maneuvers with Team Attack on.

Try hosting a doubles event with Team Attack OFF. Let us know what you find. Just know that you're rubbing up against 10+ years of the entire community working through this. Tournaments tried using items but ultimately deemed them bad for competition. Tournaments tried disabling team attack and arrived at the same conclusion.

Personally, I don't like the fact that you can just mindlessly attack without any care for the positioning of your teammate. Another great aspect of friendly fire is that you can save your friend during recoveries.

 

[Locke 06]

Try hosting a doubles event with Team Attack OFF. Let us know what you find. Just know that you're rubbing up against 10+ years of the entire community working through this. Tournaments tried using items but ultimately deemed them bad for competition. Tournaments tried disabling team attack and arrived at the same conclusion.

Personally, I don't like the fact that you can just mindlessly attack without any care for the positioning of your teammate. Another great aspect of friendly fire is that you can save your friend during recoveries.

Yeah, I had a feeling that argument would come up. I'd be curious to see how it goes. I'm in no situation to host an event, but I definitely understand that the community has exhausted this issue in previous games. The issue that I see now is that reflectors and counters have been buffed (the most powerful counter in Brawl was x1.2 - Ike, whose counter was slow - and now it's x1.3 - Little Mac, whose counter is very quick), not mentioning custom moves which can push the multiplier to x1.5. New game, possibly new rules? We'll see.

I agree that TA ON makes you have to be much more precise in your teamwork and lessens the 2v1 advantage (which can be arguably unwinnable at fresh stocks). But the game seems designed around TA off and the exploits with TA on feel like they could be metagame defining. Also, TA on promotes 1v1 play to minimize friendly fire, while TA off promotes 2v2 play to maximize lag covering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmxNQF-Gzkk - Here's a video I found of some tournament melee doubles. It's a lot of 1v1 with a lot of "help me out" play, which I'm not all that excited about. Any coordinated attacks are usually sandwiching (36:01). Mind you, I didn't watch the whole thing... so I could be getting a completely wrong impression of competitive doubles.

Side note: some characters can still save your teammate during recoveries, which makes them all the more important as doubles partners (G&W... again, Mega Man, Pacman)

Extra side note: Do you play doubles? I've been trying to find doubles matches with my teammate, but finding a doubles match here is like finding water in a desert.

 

[SirIanAsh]

Oh god... This is just.

I have no words, I am speechless

 

[Logsmash]

That was hilarious, hopefully they can find a way to stop this from becoming the norm in doubles without banning G&W.

 

[Rakurai]

Imagine this with Panic Overload. Have you seen how big Panic overload is? it's about2 bowsers high and at least 3 wide. And since it is slightly slower, you can see your impending doom like a black tsunami, roll away, get thrown into it by pika and die cause it lingers longer.

Panic Overload is actually much weaker then the standard Oil Panic.

A bucket full of Mario's fireballs got a clean KO on him at 45% with the standard version. Panic Overload barely managed to get him off the side of the stage from the same position.

 

[Thor]

Personally, I think one rather simple way to do it would be to legalize everything again, but make this rule:

Pikachu and G&W can only fill the bucket with t-jolts, or with 2 t-jolts + 1 thunder (same for other teams - no multi-hit fills). If G&W fills the bucket with a multi-hit fill, he must dump the bucket without hitting an opponent. To dump the bucket he should face offstage with no enemies there (ally could be there I guess...) and clean out the bucket. If he takes a stock with a multi-hit filled bucket, his team forfeits a stock for each stock the opposing team lost [OPTIONAL: but forfeits those stocks after a death unless at one stock at which point they forfeit the game (that is, they forfeit the stock at 0%, since the opponent was OHKO'd)]. If the G&W removes the last remaining stock with a multi-hit-filled bucket, the entire game is forfeited.

Contingency rule - if G&W attempts to dump the bucket at the end of the stage offstage, with no enemies offstage, and an opponent is hit by his/her teammate into the bucket dump and dies, no stock is forfeited.

In practice: Don't fill the bucket with Thunder/multi-hit fills, if you do, just go dump it out. If stupid stuff happens, you probably loe a stock.

This would allow bucketing the way Brawl does (which is actually quite powerful with ZSS), but would stop insta-buckets. And personally, I think if you can fill the bucket with 3 t-jolts, you deserve to be able to use it.

Alternatively, mandating the custom special that instant fills the bucket would be another soluation.

Yeah, I had a feeling that argument would come up. I'd be curious to see how it goes. I'm in no situation to host an event, but I definitely understand that the community has exhausted this issue in previous games. The issue that I see now is that reflectors and counters have been buffed (the most powerful counter in Brawl was x1.2 - Ike, whose counter was slow - and now it's x1.3 - Little Mac, whose counter is very quick), not mentioning custom moves which can push the multiplier to x1.5. New game, possibly new rules? We'll see.

I agree that TA ON makes you have to be much more precise in your teamwork and lessens the 2v1 advantage (which can be arguably unwinnable at fresh stocks). But the game seems designed around TA off and the exploits with TA on feel like they could be metagame defining. Also, TA on promotes 1v1 play to minimize friendly fire, while TA off promotes 2v2 play to maximize lag covering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmxNQF-Gzkk - Here's a video I found of some tournament melee doubles. It's a lot of 1v1 with a lot of "help me out" play, which I'm not all that excited about. Any coordinated attacks are usually sandwiching (36:01). Mind you, I didn't watch the whole thing... so I could be getting a completely wrong impression of competitive doubles.

Side note: some characters can still save your teammate during recoveries, which makes them all the more important as doubles partners (G&W... again, Mega Man, Pacman)

Extra side note: Do you play doubles? I've been trying to find doubles matches with my teammate, but finding a doubles match here is like finding water in a desert.

Brawl doubles are a better example - Melee has enough crazy crap that you don't want to be in the way of a Fox waveshine usmashing someone. But with team attack off, P1 grab -> Ike (P2) fsmash is a thing, and rather obnoxious honestly. There are other rather stupid combos that become much easier with team attack off (Kirby uthrow -> DJ Pikachu Thunder can almost instant KO, but with team attack on precise spacing is required to not only hit and kill your ally - not at all the case with team attack off).

Pairs of 1v1s can also be strategic - they can limit team combos for slow characters but not fast characters, being especially strategic for Melee Fox (Ex: a Samus Puff team can do nasty things to double Fox when they are close, but if the Fox players camp to make them 1v1s, they can fight in relatively strong MUs alone, but with their speed can easily get a hit confirm or make an assist), they can allow exploiting certain MUs in doubles (Ex: I was playing Pikachu in one round and my opponents had a Snake on the team - my teammate worked to engage the other character (Ike) as often as possible so I could be free to focus-fire Snake, get a few CGs, and lay on lots of percent), and can make gimping easier (same example: my opponent being assaulted by my teammate Kirby allowed my Pikachu to focus on gimping Snake instead of having to gimp Snake and worry about commiting to enough lag to eat a usmash).

I think this is a better example of a good 2v2 match [it also has an incredible comeback] - they are all staying reasonably close, each having their own team strats and combos to execute, while trying to cover each other to avoid letting their own MK get combo'd or let the other team's MK put in a lot of damage quickly. Yes the 1v1s occur, but they are usually by design for gimping or trying to make the most of a bad situation for one of the players on the opposing team: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I04ULNFyC2A

Incidentally, that doubles match is also the only time since like Apex 2012 that the losing team of that match didn't win the doubles event they entered.

 

[warriorman222]

Panic Overload is actually much weaker then the standard Oil Panic.

A bucket full of Mario's fireballs got a clean KO on him at 45% with the standard version. Panic Overload barely managed to get him off the side of the stage from the same position.

My god this post was like a week ago. info has changed, i know that it's weaker. I did testing.

Personally, I think one rather simple way to do it would be to legalize everything again, but make this rule:

Pikachu and G&W can only fill the bucket with t-jolts, or with 2 t-jolts + 1 thunder (same for other teams - no multi-hit fills). If G&W fills the bucket with a multi-hit fill, he must dump the bucket without hitting an opponent. To dump the bucket he should face offstage with no enemies there (ally could be there I guess...) and clean out the bucket.

I don't think that's a good idea. I'll just get Mega Man and F-smash the bucket. now for more OHKO oil. Just need to charge it a bit and voila! filled!

Clearly you don't know how Oil Panic was "nerfed". I'm sorry if that came off as rude. So, the multiplier was reduced from 2.8->2.5 Simple, right?

Nope. Nintendorks decide to take it a step further and give each Slot a 6% capacity. So Thunder is a multi-hit, but The first hit fills up 2 buckets, next hit 8%-2 (Formula: (6+2)+6=14*2.5=35)

Yeah, you don't need a multihit. Thunder is simply a failsafe, because not many moves can fill all 3 slots at once, so it instead hits twice. But uncharged Mega man Fsmash can fill up 2 entirely, to any degree charged more it fills up all 3, a good amount of charging it maxes out the damage.

That's basically it. The move was further nerfed. But it opened up new strategies like this. this wouldn't work if it wasn't made like this, since Thunder hits twice.

 

[Locke 06]

Personally, I think one rather simple way to do it would be to legalize everything again, but make this rule:

Pikachu and G&W can only fill the bucket with t-jolts, or with 2 t-jolts + 1 thunder (same for other teams - no multi-hit fills). If G&W fills the bucket with a multi-hit fill, he must dump the bucket without hitting an opponent. To dump the bucket he should face offstage with no enemies there (ally could be there I guess...) and clean out the bucket. If he takes a stock with a multi-hit filled bucket, his team forfeits a stock for each stock the opposing team lost [OPTIONAL: but forfeits those stocks after a death unless at one stock at which point they forfeit the game (that is, they forfeit the stock at 0%, since the opponent was OHKO'd)]. If the G&W removes the last remaining stock with a multi-hit-filled bucket, the entire game is forfeited.

Contingency rule - if G&W attempts to dump the bucket at the end of the stage offstage, with no enemies offstage, and an opponent is hit by his/her teammate into the bucket dump and dies, no stock is forfeited.

In practice: Don't fill the bucket with Thunder/multi-hit fills, if you do, just go dump it out. If stupid stuff happens, you probably lose a stock.

This would allow bucketing the way Brawl does (which is actually quite powerful with ZSS), but would stop insta-buckets. And personally, I think if you can fill the bucket with 3 t-jolts, you deserve to be able to use it.

Alternatively, mandating the custom special that instant fills the bucket would be another solution.

The contingency rule leaves room for grey area, which is not good for rules, especially when you do not have referees. I think Mega Man G&W might change your mind because 2 pellets + fsmash is pretty strong (even 3 pellets is a solid 16% for a move that has a long hitbox and good range and is much faster than 3 paralyzers or 3 t-jolts).

Brawl doubles are a better example. But with team attack off, P1 grab -> Ike (P2) fsmash is a thing, and rather obnoxious honestly. There are other rather stupid combos that become much easier with team attack off (Kirby uthrow -> DJ Pikachu Thunder can almost instant KO, but with team attack on precise spacing is required to not only hit and kill your ally - not at all the case with team attack off).

What is your teammate doing while this is happening? "Rather stupid combos" are possible, but it's a 2-way street. P1 grab v P3 --> P2 smash v P3 is a thing, but so is P1 grab v P3 --> P4 smash v P1.

You could also say that rather stupid camping is possible (Robin elfire to cover a Mega Man lemon wall), but you're playing against a team that is much more capable than one person alone. I just dislike this argument against TA on, because it makes the other team sound helpless when I really don't think they are.

Pairs of 1v1s can also be strategic... I think this is a better example of a good 2v2 match [it also has an incredible comeback] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I04ULNFyC2A

Yeah, I didn't mean to write off the value of 1v1's or TA on. It's definitely strategic especially when you have a damage racker and a killer like MK/Wario in Brawl. Also exploiting MU's like you said is big. I enjoy doubles as it is right now with TA on (with the exception of exploits like GW bucket, villager pocket [amplifies damage by 1.9x??? Nope, not a concern], and activating counters). I just feel like TA OFF would be even more focused on 2v2 teams staying together as a team to avoid and execute ridiculous combos. And then you can still take advantage of 1v1's like TA ON.

As for that link, that was awesome and everything I like about doubles. I'm kind of curious to see what a high-level TA on match would look like. I'm not against TA on, as all the points for being careful about your partner etc. are valid and things I support... I just think the exploits of TA on are so strong in this game are so strong that they outweigh down side of TA off. Pocketing Mega Man's fsmash gives Villager a somewhat gamebreaking projectile. Yes, he/she has to be careful using it, but the opponent team has little control whether the villager can pocket it.

TL;DR - I don't think the top competitive teams will use a team of characters that do not have some kind of TA ON exploit because they are game-breakingly strong. And that, to me, sounds like a problem.

 

[Code Bread]

Oil Panic has been the only issue found in doubles with team attack on.

What teams present abusable tactics with team attacks off? I assume way more than one.

 

[Locke 06]

Oil Panic has been the only issue found in doubles with team attack on.

What teams present abusable tactics with team attacks off? I assume way more than one.

Activating teammate's counters. Pocket. Ness healing are 3 more that come to mind. Also, luigi ladders/saving recoveries (which I kind of like, but is an exploit nonetheless... it makes Pacman a much more interesting doubles partner).

 

[warriorman222]

The contingency rule leaves room for grey area, which is not good for rules, especially when you do not have referees. I think Mega Man G&W might change your mind because 2 pellets + fsmash is pretty strong (even 3 pellets is a solid 16% for a move that has a long hitbox and good range and is much faster than 3 paralyzers or 3 t-jolts).

I think Game and Pika is already banned, and G&W is still banned in Japanese Doubles. In Clash tournament Doubles after that one fight G&W disappeared. Oil Panic is that one anomaly, that can be reasonably nerfed with Efficient Panic. And yes his rule has a lophole that will only worsen things, i agree with you on that,. But my tactic is pellet-> fsmash. Because uncharged Buster maxes out 2 slots and doesn't fill up three. So a pellet for slot 1 and max out the other 2 slots = STRONGER THAN PIKAWATCH AND EASIER. MegaWatch is so much bigger a problem than PikaWatch that i'm afraid everyone will ignore my idea to nerf to Efficient Panic, and just ban Oil Panic or G&W instead.

Yes, everyone is vulnerable to hyper combos, but can execute them as well. Good logic. But most TOs don't want it revolving around those combos, that would suck. Most people want to see real fights, where people have to watch and be careful, not just obnoxious stupid grab-Fsmash move combos that can be successful by knocking away one teammate. Imo i like hyper combos, and even though i would like Team Attack Off for the sake of them, the viewers(for the most part) and TOs do want it on. So for the sake of viewers it's on.

tl;drMegawatch is one Pellet->Fsmash to make it stronger than PikaWatch. Hyper combos mean more boring fights. G&W may be banned in American Doubles, and definitely is in Japanese Doubles.

EDIT:Ok i saw your exploit post. I mean, don't get me wrong, i want Team Attack off, i'm just saying why i think it isn't off.

 

[Code Bread]

Activating teammate's counters. Pocket. Ness healing are 3 more that come to mind. Also, luigi ladders/saving recoveries (which I kind of like, but is an exploit nonetheless... it makes Pacman a much more interesting doubles partner).

I've never seen someone activate a teamate's counter intentionally before. But I don't watch doubles often so I'm probably talking out of my ass here.
Villager's Pocket, I assume, kind of falls into the same place as Oil Panic. Only much less so.
Healing Ness, imo, is a legitimate strategy because it's only doable at opportune times and it allows a lot of team dynamics without destroying the other team. But I think it depends on how much each attack heals Ness, and I'm not going to bother navigating to the chart just for this thread.

I still think team attack off would lead to more issues than team attack on.
But like I said, I don't watch doubles often.

 

[Locke 06]

Yes, everyone is vulnerable to hyper combos, but can execute them as well. Good logic. But most TOs don't want it revolving around those combos, that would suck. Most people want to see real fights, where people have to watch and be careful, not just obnoxious stupid grab-Fsmash move combos that can be successful by knocking away one teammate. Imo i like hyper combos, and even though i would like Team Attack Off for the sake of them, the viewers(for the most part) and TOs do want it on. So for the sake of viewers it's on.

tl;drMegawatch is one Pellet->Fsmash to make it stronger than PikaWatch. Hyper combos mean more boring fights. G&W may be banned in American Doubles, and definitely is in Japanese Doubles.

EDIT:Ok i saw your exploit post. I mena, don't get me wrong, i want Team Attack off, i'm just saying why i think it isn't off.

I get that TO's don't want it revolving around "hyper combos," but I think they are harder to pull off than people give them credit for. You can still grab-Fsmash with proper spacing with TA on, but you rarely see it and go crazy when it happens. Grab release combos are most definitely a thing with TA on also. I'm just not sure TA off makes these combos that good, because they're still limited by the natural rules of the game. If you can land a grab - reverse warlock punch TA on or TA off, I think you should be given it, because it's still limited by the startup time of the warlock punch. If you activate your teammate's counter with a Samus charge shot, you're doing much more damage/knockback than the game naturally allows with the startup of the moves (and the only way to stop it is by tanking/shielding the charge shot or hit-stunning/grabbing the player who's countering).

@ Code Bread - I don't think competitive Smash 4 doubles have really been streamed/recorded much. A lot of what I'm saying is just off of speculation, but I think the buffs to counters will lead to this. My doubles partner and I have started using a similar gimmick (Mega Man crash bomb --> Greninja substitution), which really isn't that powerful, but it works.

edit: I'm still wondering why Pocket is less of an issue than oil panic... x1.9 multiplier with next to 0 startup? Also, it can be used in the air... I play defensive against a villager for 30 seconds if I make the mistake of allowing him/her to pocket my fsmash.

 

[warriorman222]

edit: I'm still wondering why Pocket is less of an issue than oil panic... x1.9 multiplier with next to 0 startup? Also, it can be used in the air... I play defensive against a villager for 30 seconds if I make the mistake of allowing him/her to pocket my fsmash.

Pocket is less of an issue because the knockback generally isn't multiplied enough to OHKO. When it is... Oh f***.

It's less of a problem because people are too bust complaining and exploiting Oil Panic, then going and doing some research on how to beat it. Which leads to rather than the meta evolving around it, it gets banned(Like almost every ban in Smogon), or in rare cases nerfed(Like Baton Pass in Smogon). Smogon is notorious for abnning stuff extremely quickly, rather than letting the meta evolve around it. If anything gets banned or nerfed in a short amount of time, the Melee people have more reasons to make fun of us, except they'll be justified.

So just find out how to beat Oil panic, rather than banning it or nerfing it. In the case that it's really that bad, try a nerf and see it it's tame then.

 

[Thor]

My god this post was like a week ago. info has changed, i know that it's weaker. I did testing.

I don't think that's a good idea. I'll just get Mega Man and F-smash the bucket. now for more OHKO oil. Just need to charge it a bit and voila! filled!

Clearly you don't know how Oil Panic was "nerfed". I'm sorry if that came off as rude. So, the multiplier was reduced from 2.8->2.5 Simple, right?

Nope. Nintendorks decide to take it a step further and give each Slot a 6% capacity. So Thunder is a multi-hit, but The first hit fills up 2 buckets, next hit 8%-2 (Formula: (6+2)+6=14*2.5=35)

Yeah, you don't need a multihit. Thunder is simply a failsafe, because not many moves can fill all 3 slots at once, so it instead hits twice. But uncharged Mega man Fsmash can fill up 2 entirely, to any degree charged more it fills up all 3, a good amount of charging it maxes out the damage.

That's basically it. The move was further nerfed. But it opened up new strategies like this. this wouldn't work if it wasn't made like this, since Thunder hits twice.

I didn't know how it was nerfed. Interesting to know. Are you saying in the patch they weakened the bucket, or just from Brawl to Smash 4?

I know the idea I proposed isn't terribly straightforward, but I don't think it would be TOO hard to implement, and in a few months would be mostly standard, just having to explain it to new people who opt for that kind of team. Admittedly there are possibly better solutions, but I think banning G&W is not one of them.

Does this mean Lucario Aura Sphere will fully charge a bucket (assuming Lucario is strong enough from Aura)? Or can that not happen.

What is your teammate doing while this is happening? "Rather stupid combos" are possible, but it's a 2-way street. P1 grab v P3 --> P2 smash v P3 is a thing, but so is P1 grab v P3 --> P4 smash v P1.
You could also say that rather stupid camping is possible (Robin elfire to cover a Mega Man lemon wall), but you're playing against a team that is much more capable than one person alone. I just dislike this argument against TA on, because it makes the other team sound helpless when I really don't think they are.

Who knows? If the teammate just got bair'd by Ike they'll be way out of range (or they could be star-KO'd by usmash, whatever) - these things are percent-dependent, but they're far easier to set up with TA off. Heck, the Pikachu could've just been sent flying and the Kirby sees that and uthrows in the hopes the Pikachu (now in position with the teammate unable to assist) gets the Thunder. If they do, it's a stock.

This isn't foolproof of course (no team combo is), but team attack off makes exploits like these MUCH easier.

I think Game and Pika is already banned, and G&W is still banned in Japanese Doubles. In Clash tournament Doubles after that one fight G&W disappeared. Oil Panic is that one anomaly, that can be reasonably nerfed with Efficient Panic. And yes his rule has a lophole that will only worsen things, i agree with you on that,. But my tactic is pellet-> fsmash. Because uncharged Buster maxes out 2 slots and doesn't fill up three. So a pellet for slot 1 and max out the other 2 slots = STRONGER THAN PIKAWATCH AND EASIER. MegaWatch is so much bigger a problem than PikaWatch that i'm afraid everyone will ignore my idea to nerf to Efficient Panic, and just ban Oil Panic or G&W instead.

Yes, everyone is vulnerable to hyper combos, but can execute them as well. Good logic. But most TOs don't want it revolving around those combos, that would suck. Most people want to see real fights, where people have to watch and be careful, not just obnoxious stupid grab-Fsmash move combos that can be successful by knocking away one teammate. Imo i like hyper combos, and even though i would like Team Attack Off for the sake of them, the viewers(for the most part) and TOs do want it on. So for the sake of viewers it's on.

tl;drMegawatch is one Pellet->Fsmash to make it stronger than PikaWatch. Hyper combos mean more boring fights. G&W may be banned in American Doubles, and definitely is in Japanese Doubles.

EDIT:Ok i saw your exploit post. I mean, don't get me wrong, i want Team Attack off, i'm just saying why i think it isn't off.

I said moves that multi-fill the bucket (fill it more than one charge) would force a bucket dump. If I didn't, then A) what did I say? and B) that's what I meant. Thunder, MegaMan fsmash, Villager pocketing something and throwing it at G&W, etc.

Also I don't feel like linking it but there is a video of double Little Mac shutting down the strategy (and I think they land at most one OHKO punch - for the interested look up Nairo vs Jtails doubles (I think it had NAKAT and someone else too but don't remember) - it's like 19 minutes long or something).

 

[Locke 06]

G&pika is a metagame defining combo. The counters and HA are the only things that have a chance against it. Metagame doesn't have to be given time to see that a rechargeable OHKO is broken.

Kirby and Pikachu also sound like they're the only ones with an exploit that is even close to being as broken as pocket/bucket/counter activation (and even then... wouldn't it not work in Smash 4? Thunder's cloud sends the opponent down, not up). You're still limited by the original strength of the moves that each character is given. Basically what I'm trying to say is that TA off tactics are much less harmful to the metagame than the overpowered tactics that TA on allows.

 

[warriorman222]

I didn't know how it was nerfed. Interesting to know. Are you saying in the patch they weakened the bucket, or just from Brawl to Smash 4?

I know the idea I proposed isn't terribly straightforward, but I don't think it would be TOO hard to implement, and in a few months would be mostly standard, just having to explain it to new people who opt for that kind of team. Admittedly there are possibly better solutions, but I think banning G&W is not one of them.

Does this mean Lucario Aura Sphere will fully charge a bucket (assuming Lucario is strong enough from Aura)? Or can that not happen.




I said moves that multi-fill the bucket (fill it more than one charge) would force a bucket dump. If I didn't, then A) what did I say? and B) that's what I meant. Thunder, MegaMan fsmash, Villager pocketing something and throwing it at G&W, etc.

Also I don't feel like linking it but there is a video of double Little Mac shutting down the strategy (and I think they land at most one OHKO punch - for the interested look up Nairo vs Jtails doubles (I think it had NAKAT and someone else too but don't remember) - it's like 19 minutes long or something).

Part 1: They nerfed it in game-transistion. So this could be done in the factory version. And Yes Aura sphere could at some point.

Part 2. A You said multi-hit and B I had an idea you meant that, but assumed you didn't. sorry.

So basically the two best solutions are this:
My method: Efficient Panic only. this renders the strategy permanantly tame rendering any and all complaints null, but many people won't want to get that, it will probably render the strategy dead forever, and it limits the types of oil you can use.

Your method: If a moves that can fill 3 slots in a short time fills Oil panic, you must dump it safely. If an enemy gets caught in the blast, you forfeit lives/ the game if you won from that. The margin of error for this rule is insanely high, and until i complete my list in the G&W thread of stuff that can break this rule, we have literally no wa of teeling what can/can't. But it allows any bucket to be used, and you don't need a certain custom.

We should make a thread for that, seeing what people like, and then if it becomes a problem acting upon said decision. but i don't have the authortity to do that, only a mod does.

G&pika is a metagame defining combo. The counters and HA are the only things that have a chance against it. Metagame doesn't have to be given time to see that a rechargeable OHKO is broken.

Kirby and Pikachu also sound like they're the only ones with an exploit that is even close to being as broken as pocket/bucket/counter activation (and even then... wouldn't it not work in Smash 4? Thunder's cloud sends the opponent down, not up). You're still limited by the original strength of the moves that each character is given. Basically what I'm trying to say is that TA off tactics are much less harmful to the metagame than the overpowered tactics that TA on allows.

This pretty much this. Team Attack off would be option 3. Let's see how many people would like that.

So my newly revised nonexistent poll would be this:
1. Efficient Panic only.
2. No using multi-hit/fill moves
3. Abolish Team Attack.

 

[Thor]

G&pika is a metagame defining combo. The counters and HA are the only things that have a chance against it. Metagame doesn't have to be given time to see that a rechargeable OHKO is broken.

Kirby and Pikachu also sound like they're the only ones with an exploit that is even close to being as broken as pocket/bucket/counter activation (and even then... wouldn't it not work in Smash 4? Thunder's cloud sends the opponent down, not up). You're still limited by the original strength of the moves that each character is given. Basically what I'm trying to say is that TA off tactics are much less harmful to the metagame than the overpowered tactics that TA on allows.

There are other variants - as an example, Snake/MK or Snake/Kirby could have the Kirby/MK in port 4, then place C4 on them and get a grab, then uthrow while Snake detonates to OHKO the enemy, because of how port priority works - Mega Man's crash bomb could do the same thing if the Kirby throws with good timing and has port priority, though it is MUCH tougher to set up (instead of stick me, run around and do it almost whenever, you have to time it based on the crash bomb timing).

These combos work with MK too (as referenced above), and perhaps Charizard?

And in this game with regards to the Thunder trick, because of how short Thunder is in Smash 4, is either going to be DJ off-a-platform Thunder, or else a low percent KO (very near the top, and enough KB from Thunder to KO).

If they are above the blastline I believe hitting with Thunder anywhere will work, otherwise they must hit with the bolt, not the cloud, which further limits the Thunder thing.\

But yes they are less likely to lead to degenerate play, being much harder to set up.