Is Ryu candidate for top tier?

[crashbfan]

 

[Fyore]

I think so, I'm not quite sure as to what is holding Ryu back or why people place him so low on tier lists. I barely play smash 4 and I can go toe to toe with the best players in my region with Ryu. Could someone explain what they think is holding Ryu back? I personally see him as high A tier or low S but that's just confirmation bias on my part.

 

[ghWyPakDzVvPncx76h2J]

Yes, He is certainly better than Luigi who has an impressive and deadly combo game, but has better control than Luigi, much more deadlier up b, flat out dominating anti air game, and fantastic footsie game. I'd say overall he is just top tier. He manages to pretty much destroy or have strong advantage over everyone in bottom to middle mid tier. And possibly only has 0-3 bad matchups being possibly Sheik, ZSS, and Pikachu, but no matter what any good Ryu would still be able to take a win, they are mostly leaning possibly in favor of the other opponent, but that does not prevent him from being ultra dominant in close range combat.

And what may be holding him back? Just being really technical and overwhelming is most likely it. There's still a very size-able amount of Ryu Players (it's definitely something if it beats Lucario by approximately 100%) and they've been popping in locals all over the place with pretty good players that are only getting better, and now you have people like Trela, 6WX, False, Mr. R, DJ Jack, and most recently 9B who got 5th at Umebura NicoNico so that very well tells you something that he is becoming slowly more and more represented. I'd say in a year from now he'll be top 5 on a tier list, assuming that the smash back room does manage to produce a tier list in that time (wouldn't be surprised if they didn't considering how rapidly changing the meta is).

 

[MashPotato]

Imo no, top 10 for sure, probably top 5, but not top 3. He struggles with Pikmin&Olimar, MegaMan, and other zoning characters due to low mobility and a meh projectile. My list goes something like: Shiek, ZSS, Pikachu, Mario, Ryu, then Rosalina and Luma. While we go nearly even with the top tiers we struggle against some mid/high tiers.

 

[ghWyPakDzVvPncx76h2J]

Imo no, top 10 for sure, probably top 5, but not top 3. He struggles with Pikmin&Olimar, MegaMan, and other zoning characters due to low mobility and a meh projectile. My list goes something like: Shiek, ZSS, Pikachu, Mario, Ryu, then Rosalina and Luma. While we go nearly even with the top tiers we struggle against some mid/high tiers.

Unlike Captain Falcon he has just bat**** priority moves that he can space with or can be the startup of a combo, moves that bypass projectiles (better have a multihit projectile because Ryu squashes nearly any projectile character that relies on 1 single hit projectile), and I would not really say that he struggles against Olimar, he absolutely has the advantage in that matchup. He makes up for low mobility with just outright powerful moves, deadly combos, and against projectiles he can punish people who don't zone their projectile game that well with Tatsumaki. Sheik has to be creative with getting in against zoning characters, but one thing ryu has over many other characters is that he he doesn't have to work as hard as Sheik when it comes to positioning for the kill. Instead he can chain quick frame attacks into kill moves at very guaranteed times, Sheik can probably chain fair into bouncing fish sometimes, but that **** is not as guaranteed as uptilt, down tilt, nair (depends at percent and exactly your positioning of the nair), down air, fair (sourspot at low percent only), or focus attack (level 1, anything 2 or above is automatically guaranteed)(listed in order of most reliable at any percent to situational at certain percent). All of these offer insane kill power. Unlike certain top tiers he only needs about a few openings and one opening alone like sour spot fair to up smash (26% combo by the way) to get the equivalence of 5 sweetspotted forward airs by Sheik. He requires that much less effort. His damage output is outright broken, his combos are more than Sheik could ever dream of, and unlike ZSS he has a reliable kill move that he can combo into and you don't have to really worry that much about the opponent DIing out of. He has a somewhat situational up tilt that can usually guarantee free 20-40% depending on the percent and character that can lead into shoryuken if they don't have their double jump intact. The Mid Tier characters that you list as "struggle" are not a bad matchup, but rather are characters that Ryu just has to work more for the openings. Ryu gets nearly Ganondorf levels of punishes and with better frame data at that too. You definitely make a valid point when you do in-fact say that zoning character are a problem, but as soon as he gets you in his combo range and the neutral is tipped in his favor there's a lot more options opened up. He can pressure the opponent to the point of usually forcing them into shield and then capitalizing onto it with a shield break. He has one of the best counter shield games in Smash Bros. Ryu's Neutral Game is unlike any other character because he is rewarded for playing the neutral, i.e. quick frame attacks that lead into combos or kill moves. Pikachu or Megaman has to work for those kill moves in pretty predictable fashions. Ryu also has weird combos that lead into footstools, a down air that you can be on the stage and spike them that can be the result of a nair or uptilt string, and an airdash. While his projectile is meh, it is very adaptable having multi hit properties or single hit properties, one of which can combo into shield break, and both can catch airdodges depending on set speed thus making it a pivotal pressure move at a distance against non projectile characters. He literally has so much special treatment that it's hard to not consider him top 3.

While I am not forcing you to change your opinion, I would like for you to see his matchups and really think if these characters can hold up against Ryu consistently in a tournament setting. He possibly has just the best matchup spread of all characters. Now let's recite: Doesn't need precise positioning for kill moves, rewarded for playing neutral; focus attack beats single hit projectiles and has high mixup potential, like many top tiers he capitalizes on a few openings to rack up massive damage however with the added bonus of being able to link those same openings into kill moves consistently, and just overall special Sakurai treatment that allows for him to abuse footstool games to a new level that make footstool combos more consistent and punishing and other great stuff that add additions to his playstyle. Although I would seriously wonder why you would have Mario above Ryu.

 

[MashPotato]

Unlike Captain Falcon he has just bat**** priority moves that he can space with or can be the startup of a combo, moves that bypass projectiles (better have a multihit projectile because Ryu squashes nearly any projectile character that relies on 1 single hit projectile), and I would not really say that he struggles against Olimar, he absolutely has the advantage in that matchup. He makes up for low mobility with just outright powerful moves, deadly combos, and against projectiles he can punish people who don't zone their projectile game that well with Tatsumaki. Sheik has to be creative with getting in against zoning characters, but one thing ryu has over many other characters is that he he doesn't have to work as hard as Sheik when it comes to positioning for the kill. Instead he can chain quick frame attacks into kill moves at very guaranteed times, Sheik can probably chain fair into bouncing fish sometimes, but that **** is not as guaranteed as uptilt, down tilt, nair (depends at percent and exactly your positioning of the nair), down air, fair (sourspot at low percent only), or focus attack (level 1, anything 2 or above is automatically guaranteed)(listed in order of most reliable at any percent to situational at certain percent). All of these offer insane kill power. Unlike certain top tiers he only needs about a few openings and one opening alone like sour spot fair to up smash (26% combo by the way) to get the equivalence of 5 sweetspotted forward airs by Sheik. He requires that much less effort. His damage output is outright broken, his combos are more than Sheik could ever dream of, and unlike ZSS he has a reliable kill move that he can combo into and you don't have to really worry that much about the opponent DIing out of. He has a somewhat situational up tilt that can usually guarantee free 20-40% depending on the percent and character that can lead into shoryuken if they don't have their double jump intact. The Mid Tier characters that you list as "struggle" are not a bad matchup, but rather are characters that Ryu just has to work more for the openings. Ryu gets nearly Ganondorf levels of punishes and with better frame data at that too. You definitely make a valid point when you do in-fact say that zoning character are a problem, but as soon as he gets you in his combo range and the neutral is tipped in his favor there's a lot more options opened up. He can pressure the opponent to the point of usually forcing them into shield and then capitalizing onto it with a shield break. He has one of the best counter shield games in Smash Bros. Ryu's Neutral Game is unlike any other character because he is rewarded for playing the neutral, i.e. quick frame attacks that lead into combos or kill moves. Pikachu or Megaman has to work for those kill moves in pretty predictable fashions. Ryu also has weird combos that lead into footstools, a down air that you can be on the stage and spike them that can be the result of a nair or uptilt string, and an airdash. While his projectile is meh, it is very adaptable having multi hit properties or single hit properties, one of which can combo into shield break, and both can catch airdodges depending on set speed thus making it a pivotal pressure move at a distance against non projectile characters. He literally has so much special treatment that it's hard to not consider him top 3.

While I am not forcing you to change your opinion, I would like for you to see his matchups and really think if these characters can hold up against Ryu consistently in a tournament setting. He possibly has just the best matchup spread of all characters. Now let's recite: Doesn't need precise positioning for kill moves, rewarded for playing neutral; focus attack beats single hit projectiles and has high mixup potential, like many top tiers he capitalizes on a few openings to rack up massive damage however with the added bonus of being able to link those same openings into kill moves consistently, and just overall special Sakurai treatment that allows for him to abuse footstool games to a new level that make footstool combos more consistent and punishing and other great stuff that add additions to his playstyle. Although I would seriously wonder why you would have Mario above Ryu.

My main problem with pikmin is the added hitlag. It's not the camping so much as if his side-special touches you you're gonna have a lot more lag on nearly all of your moves. He also has lots of disjoints which is a pain. For megaman, I just don't know how to fight him so I fail every time I play one . I put Mario that high because of his large damage output (especially off of throws) and good kill options (kill throw, d-tilt > up-air, d-throw > up-b 50/50, d-throw > f-air, and of course the up-smash). He also has pretty good mobility and a decent projectile.

 

[ghWyPakDzVvPncx76h2J]

My main problem with pikmin is the added hitlag. It's not the camping so much as if his side-special touches you you're gonna have a lot more lag on nearly all of your moves. He also has lots of disjoints which is a pain. For megaman, I just don't know how to fight him so I fail every time I play one . I put Mario that high because of his large damage output (especially off of throws) and good kill options (kill throw, d-tilt > up-air, d-throw > up-b 50/50, d-throw > f-air, and of course the up-smash). He also has pretty good mobility and a decent projectile.

Good enough reasonings, although as for my counterpoints to the Olimar Matchup. The hitlag can be a liability as Ryu's forward air or any of his attacks in general is not something you want to be activated for a long time and can punish heavily. Olimar is at kill percent or has to start worrying about dying as soon as 40% hits because any sourspot fair, nair string, down air will put him in a disadvantageous position that will send him to 50-60%, a percent that can suffice the kill power of the shoryuken. Olimar has to play on-point for nearly the entirety of the matchup. He has more to lose than Ryu does. This is a big liability. And personally I feel that Olimar is over-rated tier wise, but the idea that he has a favorable matchup against Ryu is pretty ridiculous. Megaman has always been some sort of odd matchup as he doesn't really play much like a Smash Character and neither does Ryu, and there isn't much footage or knowledge of the matchup so I would want to see footage of how it does play, but from what my experience is, is that it is no guaranteed to win playing Megaman and he is not the most perfect counterpick so I'm sure it is around even, maybe, but there isn't much footage or tournament players that have really engaged in a Ryu vs Megaman matchup.

Mario has to rely too much on platforms for big up air to up b combos unlike Ryu who really can just get anywhere from 20% to 50% off of combos that are barely situational (with the exception of footstool combos which require you to force a mixup into the occasional combo and not have your opponent tech). Mario also doesn't have combos into kill moves that are guaranteed. He has backthrow, but getting in to Ryu's close range without being destroyed is difficult enough already. Ryu beats mario in the footsies game and both have projectiles, but Mario can't really force Ryu to approach and Ryu's hadouken (not shakanetsu) has priority over Mario's Fireball. Ryu has the slight advantage in the matchup, but not by that much of a large margin and Ryu works even less for kills than Mario has to. Damage output both of them are pretty easy to get around the same percent, but as a whole one works even less for kills, better yet are less situational, which in my views I place Ryu over Mario tier wise.

 

[MashPotato]

Good enough reasonings, although as for my counterpoints to the Olimar Matchup. The hitlag can be a liability as Ryu's forward air or any of his attacks in general is not something you want to be activated for a long time and can punish heavily. Olimar is at kill percent or has to start worrying about dying as soon as 40% hits because any sourspot fair, nair string, down air will put him in a disadvantageous position that will send him to 50-60%, a percent that can suffice the kill power of the shoryuken. Olimar has to play on-point for nearly the entirety of the matchup. He has more to lose than Ryu does. This is a big liability. And personally I feel that Olimar is over-rated tier wise, but the idea that he has a favorable matchup against Ryu is pretty ridiculous. Megaman has always been some sort of odd matchup as he doesn't really play much like a Smash Character and neither does Ryu, and there isn't much footage or knowledge of the matchup so I would want to see footage of how it does play, but from what my experience is, is that it is no guaranteed to win playing Megaman and he is not the most perfect counterpick so I'm sure it is around even, maybe, but there isn't much footage or tournament players that have really engaged in a Ryu vs Megaman matchup.

Mario has to rely too much on platforms for big up air to up b combos unlike Ryu who really can just get anywhere from 20% to 50% off of combos that are barely situational (with the exception of footstool combos which require you to force a mixup into the occasional combo and not have your opponent tech). Mario also doesn't have combos into kill moves that are guaranteed. He has backthrow, but getting in to Ryu's close range without being destroyed is difficult enough already. Ryu beats mario in the footsies game and both have projectiles, but Mario can't really force Ryu to approach and Ryu's hadouken (not shakanetsu) has priority over Mario's Fireball. Ryu has the slight advantage in the matchup, but not by that much of a large margin and Ryu works even less for kills than Mario has to. Damage output both of them are pretty easy to get around the same percent, but as a whole one works even less for kills, better yet are less situational, which in my views place Ryu over Mario tier wise.

For Olimar I personally just use ROB since smart gyro usage practically invalidates pikmin. I agree that Ryu beets Mario slightly but I think Mario has a better MU spread. Imo Pikachu, Mario, Ryu, and Rosa are all about the same level, amazing but not flawless/start killing at 30%. My order is just from my experience.

 

[Deezxnutz]

I too have a hard time with the Olimar matchup as well as Link. Every other matchup I've come across as Ryu I'm fine with except Pikachu whom I just switch to Villager instead.

 

[Nyhte]

Yes, but it might take a bit more time before most everyone agrees with it though

 

[Snackss]

Even if Ryu is top tier, it probably won't steer the metagame. He fulfills a particular role and has distinct strengths and weaknesses, unlike Sheik who just does almost everything better than everyone else or at least half the cast where she isn't indisputably #1, or Rosalina who has an utterly absurd mechanic that makes it basically impossible to put her anywhere but top tier.

 

[MashPotato]

Even if Ryu is top tier, it probably won't steer the metagame. He fulfills a particular role and has distinct strengths and weaknesses, unlike Sheik who just does almost everything better than everyone else or at least half the cast where she isn't indisputably #1, or Rosalina who has an utterly absurd mechanic that makes it basically impossible to put her anywhere but top tier.

By absurd mechanic I'm assuming you mean Luma. B-air it once or twice and it's dead. Heavy jab works well too. Rosalina and luma imo aren't to hard for ryu. Kill luma then play neutral against a relatively bad character. Also you can fadc even if you don't hit rosa and only hit luma thus covering rolls and spotdodges since luma gets no invincibility from them.

 

[Snackss]

I mean in general compared to the rest of the cast, not Rosalina vs. Ryu specifically.

Ryu's up throw also hits Luma though.

 

[PChron]

I mean in general compared to the rest of the cast, not Rosalina vs. Ryu specifically.

Ryu's up throw also hits Luma though.

Down throw too, if, I recall correctly.
Remember, you have to time both throws correctly in order to hit luma in her transit