Is Palutena at all viable at this point in the game?

[Rango the Mercenary]

Her Fair is still great for throwing people off and her DThrow still works great for mixing up Uair and USmash for kills under 120%. However, I've noticed some improvement in her tilt game. UTilt and FTilt seem more practical now. Do you feel they're noteworthy changes?

I still think her Reflect and Counter are not very useful, the former applying to characters who aren't projectile-heavy.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Frankly, no. She's not. Ftilt is a much better move than it was pre-patch, but it fill no holes in her game and I'm having a hard time seeing when it would be wise to use at all short of just wanting a braindead way to punish spotdodge if you're really scared you'll miss a jab->grab or something.

The others things you mention are nice tools, but she still has a weak as hell neutral game, she's still light, she still has to make hard commitments to kill, she still lacks the explosive damage potential of the better characters, her jab is still eight frames etc.

I really think that Palutena lacks any sort of strength to really pressure other characters and relies entirely on spacing, safety and reads to do much of anything at all. Her disadvantage state is pretty bad, her advantage state is mediocre, her neutral is terrible, her offstage game is outdone by the majority of the cast... I could go on. Even less impressive characters tend to have something scary about them. DK's got power and weight, Marth's got the tipper and disjoints, TL's got a mean projectile game. Short of Bair's priority and a pretty decent reflector, I don't feel like Palutena really has anything that makes other players go "Oh! This character, I'd better watch out for ______!" and everyone can just safely play their normal game.

If your goal is to place high and win money, by all means do not use this character. If your goal is to see how far you can get and better yourself with your favorite green-haired goddess, then stick with her.

I don't want to sound defeatist, but without some serious changes to fix her neutral and her kill options, she's never going to be truly viable.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

I really think that Palutena lacks any sort of strength to really pressure other characters and relies entirely on spacing, safety and reads to do much of anything at all. Her disadvantage state is pretty bad, her advantage state is mediocre, her neutral is terrible, her offstage game is outdone by the majority of the cast... I could go on.

Her disadvantage and neutral are alright. Warp can get her out of bad situations and, unlike characters such as Bowser who actually have really bad disadvantage states, can land without getting juggled to death. Her neutral, while limited, is effective enough. F-air and B-air are both safe on block when spaced, Jab has good range, and Dash Attack is useful for countering moves and punishing whiffs.

Overall, I think Palutena is viable enough to do things and she's not useless (I don't think anyone besides default Brawler is at this point). There are a few Palutenas that consistently place well (top 16/8) at locals and nationals. It's certainly hard but not impossible.

Just look at this. And this.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I disagree about both the disadvantage and neutral, though I am pleased to hear that her results are better than I would have thought they'd be. I am aware that some people are making her work, and I had pretty decent results myself this weekend, but I really don't think she's proven herself viable compared to the top performers and I don't think she has the tools to get there.

I do think her disadvantage is bad. Not horrible, but bad. Warp keeps it from being horrible. But she has a bad air speed/fall speed, she's a big target, and she lacks quick aerials to get her out of bad situations. Nair works sometimes but you often get smacked for landing it too close to the ground. Fair can work with the right positioning but I personally haven't found it reliable. Unlike most characters with reflectors, hers is bad when coming down as charge shots and such can sneak in underneath. She has a counter, and that's nice, but it's terribly slow. Everything about her disadvantage just screams unimpressive to me. Her best tool is for survival only, and she has very little realistic hope of turning things around until she can get back to neutral.

...which I do think it quite bad, too. Bair is a great tool, and don't let anything I say downplay that. Bair (and to a lesser extent, dash attack) is one thing that -does- set Palu apart from the crowd. Other characters wish they had an option that could just fearlessly challenge another attack like that. But I don't think it's as safe as you're saying. It has 16 frames of landing lag, from the moment you hit the ground, and while it's range is good, it's not immense or anything and there are a number of characters that can dash attack it or other quick moves with some kind of range. Fair is a passable tool. Jab is a good move in a vaccuum and sets up for great damage but I'd rather, numbers wise, the move was on Dtilt or Ftilt or something and we had a faster move assigned to jab. since we're not really left with any options when up close against Luigi/Zamus/Mac/Falcon etc. etc. Dash attack is slightly better than your average dash attack and not very special compared to the best dash attacks (MK/Falcon etc.) and while it's our fastest grounded option, it's a scary move to whiff

It -is- hard, and that's what makes her unviable. To beat someone with Palutena, you have to either be soundly outplaying them or get a lucky uair during the Delfino transformation. There are no freebies, there are no situations where she dominates other characters. She has to win with clean honest hits and reads, and in a world where Luigi gets half a stock off of a grab and Sheik wins neutral by smashing her face into the controller I just don't think it's enough to compete. I do believe that high-placing Palus are outliers and that the character is not doing these players any favors.

She's pretty good against Villager though

Again, if you like Palutena and just want to play her no matter what, go for it, Shoot for the stars, see how far you can take her. But if you're looking for a competitively viable character to win tournaments with, look somewhere else.

 

[Project_B]

With the competitive Smash scene drifting away from the use of customs, and from what I have gathered by playing and watching Palutena, I would have to say that someone could win a local with her... If they were really good. But then again, top Smash players like Nairo win grand finals at locals using her and Ganondorf, or even Lucina (these have all happened). So Palutena can be used, but doesn't have good enough matchups or a good enough kit to win a national against the current top players.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Every character in this game is viable.

In previous games, you could argue that certain characters are inviable (in terms of solo viability at least). This is because the design or balance would have severe problems where that character has an extremely difficult time winning or virtually can't win certain MUs due to things like infinites or just being really impossible to win with.

Anything past that, you cannot argue if a character is not "good enough" or if it's more up to whether the right player is behind the character.

The balance and design in smash 4 is good. No character is inviable.

Anything other than "is this character unplayable at a competitive level" is pretty much useless to talk about, because difficulty is subjective, and every human is different.

Now if you must, then I will say that Smash 4's roster is definitely completely viable in terms of "difficulty". If in Melee, S and A tier are considered viable (as the SBR's definition of B tier is "not solo viable, only situational picks" and C tier is "unplayable"), and in Brawl any character above around Peach or Sheik is viable, Smash 4's roster easily fits entirely above that threshold. I would go as far to say that Smash 4's entire cast fits in Melee's 2.5-3 times.

Basically I hate people doubting/QQing about Smash 4 characters being "bad" or "inviable". It's really a pity for people to still worry about these things when we have such a privileged opportunity to play such a balanced Smash for the first time ever.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm not denying that this game feels like it's got some of the strongest balance in the series, because it really does, but I'm just not seeing how some of the weaker characters are supposed to compete with the tools the top characters have.

No one in the roster is Brawl Ganondorf but I do think that plenty of the are nonviable.

 

[Project_B]

This game is definitely more balanced than previous iterations in the series, however, I am reminded of something |TSM| ZeRo said about characters being "viable" in Smash 4. I can't recall exactly what he said, but he mentioned that the top players of the game can go around winning locals/small tournaments "with Ganondorf" (ZeRo's example), but even as the roster has low tiers that have roles in the meta for certain matchups (reminiscent of Armada countering Jigglypuff with Young Link) the top level international and even US national players also have near balanced skill levels. ZeRo is undefeated in the Wii U version and inarguably the best Smash 4 player in the world, and even he said that it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to win a large national or international tournament with many characters in the game, and that is the logic behind what I said (you may not have been addressing me specifically, but I will respond) that in terms of solo viability, there are many characters that have design flaws, or even just a poor kit that would prevent anyone from beating any of several top players playing top/high tiers. There are always some characters in Smash that have limitations in their tournament usage because of tough matchups against top tiers or any other reason, but even with the incredible gameplay seen from some players as low tier characters, it is not enough for solo viability in a tourney like Apex, CEO, EVO, etc. unless a new great tech is found for the character, or there is a large buff given, in which case the character is no longer low tier. It can be kind of sad if the characters you use are not viable, but viability is still in this game, and still important.