Is Netplay Support Possible to Develop for Wii and not simply Dolphin?

[yellowdee]

Because I have no idea. Do the project M developers have any plans to add this in the future? They seem to be able to get a connection to a server on the new up-loader included with 3.0 onwards, but would a p2p connection in-game be possible?

 

[GP&B]

It'd require separate servers entirely for it to work. Dolphin netplay is a direct P2P connection that effectively makes the connecting player act as a "local player 2" as if he were right there next to you.

 

[yellowdee]

So you're saying that there is no possibility of modifying existing network coding in the game to achieve a fast p2p connection, and that makes sense.

Would you say it's still possible to make an outside Homebrew app (or loadable sd app) that streams inputs over a p2p into the wii, running concurrently with Brawl/PM (or any other wii game)? Or might that cause too many desyncs/consume too many resources? Additionally, would that be outside the reasonable scope of development?

 

[GP&B]

First part, highly unlikely. It was looked into way back during Brawl+ but nothing ever came of it.

And I doubt so for the second part as well, sadly.

 

[Paradoxium]

I wish there was a way for us to hook up our own servers I would totally save up the money and build one

 

[F. Blue]

Actual 'netplay' like what Dolphin has wouldn't require any servers, just a host and a stable connection. It's pretty much impossible to hack something like that into the game itself, and would be pretty much entirely new code.

You know what would be sweet though? A cIOS/loader app that allows you to do netplay in Wii/Gamecube games on actual hardware!

 

[IronChar]

^is the coding actually possible for that? perhaps anything is possible in the coding world, it just takes time and dectacated devlopers to make it happen.

 

[RomeDogg]

I want someone in the Project M backroom to reply here and let us know if creating an alternative way to play online is a concern. Because just that alone is going to decrease the amount of PM players period and it will cause many more players to move on to Smash 4. I know I will literally never play PM at all after May(unless I am just messing around on it) since there is no one anywhere near me who is actually good at Melee/PM.

Though I also won't play Smash 4 at all even though it has online play because I know it will be worse than Melee/PM. So I guess what I am saying is that without regular practice by being able to play online it will prevent me from even desiring to travel long distance to meet up with large groups of smashers. Because I know I won't have near the amount of practice they can achieve just be living very near to other die hard smashers. I have even heard to some pro level smashers talking about quitting and moving to Smash 4 mainly because of online capabilities and such.

So what is the Project M teams take on this? And what has been done so far to save online play by community members?

 

[Terotrous]

I feel it has to be possible. Brawl runs totally peer to peer, once the connection between the players is made the server is no longer doing anything. You'd just have to eliminate everything about the server and come up with a new way of establishing the connection.

 

[Xinc]

I feel like there is definitely potential. I mean, look at SSBM:O. I feel like I can expect anything from the Smashing Hack Community.

 

[Paradoxium]

I just got into brawl wifi like right when its shutting down lol

 

[Guilu]

The usual problem with hacked servers is that you have no idea what's in them. Whereas we can have a good idea what's going on with the game in our console, we don't know what the server does exactly - we only know of how it interacts with the client. So someone would have to make that from scratch and implying official support from the PMBR would also require a lot of work clientside to fix the generally horrible online interface.
Not to mention, in the end, there is no miracle. Online and fighting games just don't mesh well.

 

[DrinkingFood]

To be fair, if this were possible, and with dolphin-quality connections, it would be pretty close to a miracle
People playing PM with access to a Wii far outnumber those with access to a computer that can emulate dolphin. Almost anyone, even people in weird states like Illinois or Indiana where almost nobody plays PM, would be able to get online matches in-state, usually meaning 1-3 frames of lag, nearly unnoticeable. In fact, if playing PM online on a wii had the same quality connection (in terms of input delay) as dolphin, I think I'd rather just play on my Wii. Access to more people, no additional hardware to use a GCC, don't have to move console to hook up to TV (it already is), transitions over to offline play very well if friends show up IRL, etc.
I think the issue though, would be that PMBR probably isn't too invested in something like this. Their most experienced coders/programmers already have their hands full with stuff that affects EVERYONE, not just the wifi players. With current knowledge it's probably not feasible, so before they could even start working on it, they'd have to go rediscover the wheel to figure out where to even begin.

 

[Spralwers]

I don't think this is really a PMBR problem as much as it is a general problem for the Wii hacking/homebrew scene. Dolphin netplay is a feature of the emulator itself.

 

[Terotrous]

The usual problem with hacked servers is that you have no idea what's in them. Whereas we can have a good idea what's going on with the game in our console, we don't know what the server does exactly - we only know of how it interacts with the client. So someone would have to make that from scratch and implying official support from the PMBR would also require a lot of work clientside to fix the generally horrible online interface.
Not to mention, in the end, there is no miracle. Online and fighting games just don't mesh well.

I'm pretty sure we don't need anything the server currently does though. The code to send packets to the other players (and receive and process those packets) must be part of Brawl itself. The server is just there for matchmaking and maybe uploading replays or something, which we could easily do without if we had to.


Also, just from my personal experience, playing 1v1 over wifi with anyone who has a decent connection is tolerable. I've played against people from halfway across the continent and it has been mostly lagless. The biggest problems with random wifi is that every match has 4 players, and if even one of those people has a bad connection, it'll be a lagfest because the game has no form of lag-hiding. If one person is late sending a packet, the game just waits for it to arrive.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Getting used to the lag does not make wifi "mostly lagless". Keep in mind most of the people you're talking to have played PM on wifi, where you NEED a friend code and will probably be doing 1v1s because of it. It's not the four players that's making issues.
Having a base to compare it to in dolphin netplay, where you always know your delay, its safe to say that many matches in wifi have upwards of 20 frames of lag. Probably many are upwards of a half second. It's only tolerable if it's absolutely necessary, but unless you get used to it, it's in no way "mostly lagless".
in fact, in its current state, it has a minimum of 7 frames of lag... I never played with anymore than 6 on dolphin netplay, and prefer 5 or less.

 

[Terotrous]

Getting used to the lag does not make wifi "mostly lagless". Keep in mind most of the people you're talking to have played PM on wifi, where you NEED a friend code and will probably be doing 1v1s because of it. It's not the four players that's making issues.

No, it's not specifically the four players, but 4 players makes it much more likely you'll encounter someone who has a horrible connection. And yes, friend codes are mandatory, and that sucks, but at least if you put in that effort you can usually get a tolerable match.

Having a base to compare it to in dolphin netplay, where you always know your delay, its safe to say that many matches in wifi have upwards of 20 frames of lag. Probably many are upwards of a half second. It's only tolerable if it's absolutely necessary, but unless you get used to it, it's in no way "mostly lagless".
in fact, in its current state, it has a minimum of 7 frames of lag... I never played with anymore than 6 on dolphin netplay, and prefer 5 or less.

I've never played a friend code match with 20 frames of delay, that would be totally unplayable, and even most matches on random Wifi aren't that bad. I'm not sure where the "minimum 7 frames of lag" comes from, according to this the minimum delay in Brawl is 3 frames, not 7, and I've definitely played people where it only has 3 frames.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Frame_delay

Assuming you can achieve 3 frame delay, that's as lagless as most games get, even most GGPO games use 3 frame delay.


But yes, if Dolphin netplay uses some form of lag hiding (ideally GGPO), it'll perform better than Brawl's netplay on average, since it can make connections with people with higher ping feel less laggy. With Brawl, you'd need <80ms ping for a good match, whereas with GGPO you could probably get away with <200ms.

 

[Renji64]

I wish there was some Xlink kai type thing for wii it sucks i won't be able to play project m on wifi anymore gonna have to mostly quit for awhile or until i get money for a new pc.

 

[Renji64]

http://gbatemp.net/threads/save-nin...e-online-servers-for-wii-and-ds-games.362716/
There might be some small hope.

 

[Terotrous]

http://gbatemp.net/threads/save-nin...e-online-servers-for-wii-and-ds-games.362716/
There might be some small hope.

They're saying pretty much the same thing I am. Game runs peer to peer, so just patch out the server functionality and emulate or replace the matchmaking process.

 

[Paradoxium]

I have never played a wifi match on brawl with less than 7 frames if lag, having played both wifi and net play I know what it feels like. Inputs are heavily delayed in wifi, there is no way to argue against that

 

[Terotrous]

I have never played a wifi match on brawl with less than 7 frames if lag, having played both wifi and net play I know what it feels like. Inputs are heavily delayed in wifi, there is no way to argue against that

I've played a lot of fighting games online, and 7 frames is very noticeable, bordering on unplayable. I've definitely had matches in Brawl that were like this, but I've also had some friend code matches that were a fair bit better.

Now, it is true that I haven't ever played P:M online, only vBrawl. Perhaps the slower pace of Brawl hides the delay a little better and it could have been as bad as 5 frames while still seeming fairly smooth. I have a lot of trouble believing it was worse than that though.

 

[Paradoxium]

I've played a lot of fighting games online, and 7 frames is very noticeable, bordering on unplayable. I've definitely had matches in Brawl that were like this, but I've also had some friend code matches that were a fair bit better.

Now, it is true that I haven't ever played P:M online, only vBrawl. Perhaps the slower pace of Brawl hides the delay a little better and it could have been as bad as 5 frames while still seeming fairly smooth. I have a lot of trouble believing it was worse than that though.

I don't think you understand the proportions of delay, and how certain frames of delay feel

 

[Terotrous]

Delay is super simple - you press a button, then there's a delay before your action comes out. The faster the pace of the game, the more happens between when you press the button and when the action happens, so it feels a bit more prominent, but it's always fairly noticeable if you're trying to shield or something against an attack that you can clearly see coming but you don't get to shield in time because of the delay.

I have played matches where the delay does not have any noticeable impact, which implies it must be pretty small.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I need help getting Brawl on the computer! Please someone help me by setting up a convo so you can walk me through it! I can't find a good guide anywhere!