Is keeping Down B special as transformation necessary anylonger?

[Lil Puddin]

I usually stick with pure Zelda or pure Shiek depending on the opponent, but not having the option to switch would be very hurtful in the long run. Fact of the matter is, there are some useful matchups for either one, and despite them being viable alone. . . They aren't exactly as viable as OTHER standalone characters. You need both halves to be at your full potential.

For one example of each:
Zelda is more of a defense or utility kind of character, which helps against people who try to control a battlefield.

Shiek is pure speed and fast attacks, which is good against swatting opponents before they can hit you.

 

[Zujx]

For the love god keep down B the way it is

My indecisiveness to pick a main is what led me to Zelda/Shiek
Don't take away the things i love.

 

[Pika_thunder]

So to all the people who skip to the end of the discussion to find out the answer.....

The answer is yes, keep it.

Most have agreed to keep shelda the way she is.

 

[Loker]

So honestly I think that if they weakened her sweet spots on her fair and bair then it would give them plenty or room to put in a useful down-b.

 

[Garde Noir]

I actually really like the ability to transform. Sheik is really good at racking up damage quickly, and I'll use that to my advantage after taking a stock, and transform offstage (to feign just using it as recovery) and Zelda's awesome knockback and the wall that is now Din's Fire really throws off someone who was facing Sheik not a moment ago.
I'm glad we're going to keep it.

 

[ThreeSided]

What if transformation was made much faster, but was only temporary? You cut the transformation tome in half, but make it only last long enough to throw out a move or two, then have it turn them back. It would be very useful for surprise shenanigans. If you make it so that transforming back cancels moves, then it won't break Sheik's recovery because she will stop and transform back mid teleport and retain freefalling. It sounds awesome for sure, but if you make it a forced transform back on a short timer, it becomes very risky, which might offset its usefulness.

Of course, it's still an extra option, and would probably make the characters better. But honestly, I would take a nerf to Sheik for this. It'd be pretty sweet, and allow for the flowing duality I know so many people have dreamt about.

 

[robosteven]

Looks like Sakurai beat this idea to the punch.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I wouldn't really need it, Samus and ZSS can't transform either. You could also tap or hold down-b for special or transform (maybe op, but worth a thought)

 

[Deleted member]

For goodness' sake, remove transform. I never ever played as Sheik and I hated that as Zelda, I had one less special move. Sakurai has rightfully realized that both characters deserve better, and so should the PMBR.

Removing transform from the Pokemon in Project M opened up all kinds of doors. Zelda and Sheik deserve to be separate. They're already separate on the roster anyway!

 

[Lil Puddin]

For goodness' sake, remove transform. I never ever played as Sheik and I hated that as Zelda, I had one less special move. Sakurai has rightfully realized that both characters deserve better, and so should the PMBR.

Removing transform from the Pokemon in Project M opened up all kinds of doors. Zelda and Sheik deserve to be separate. They're already separate on the roster anyway!

Nice try Sakarai. We all know that is you, trying to make sense and stuff.

 

[4tlas]

Please leave it the same! The transform is a unique mechanic! If you choose not to use it, that's your choice. I don't use Sheik's dair or sideB because I don't like them, but I don't think its a problem she has them. Why is this different?

 

[Lil Puddin]

Please leave it the same! The transform is a unique mechanic! If you choose not to use it, that's your choice. I don't use Sheik's dair or sideB because I don't like them, but I don't think its a problem she has them. Why is this different?

Because instantly changing characters midmatch changes the MU; AKA = unfair for the opponent. It also jips both characters' chances of getting a full-on proper balancing and robs them of a move.

Sheik is crying in the corner because she only has ONE useful B move. She's all "omg just separate us so my recovery can be sideB or a better UpB!!! Transform+Fwind is totes not a cool recovery bruh."

 

[4tlas]

Because instantly changing characters midmatch changes the MU; AKA = unfair for the opponent. It also jips both characters' chances of getting a full-on proper balancing and robs them of a move.

Sheik is crying in the corner because she only has ONE useful B move. She's all "omg just separate us so my recovery can be sideB or a better UpB!!! Transform+Fwind is totes not a cool recovery bruh."

I don't agree that its unfair for the opponent. It is all part of one MU, the Zelda/Sheik MU. It is a move they each have that allows them to shift their abilities. Is Fire/Ice Samus unfair? Lucas' Offense Up? Desyncing Nana?

And removing transform and adding a different downB doesn't give them any more leeway for balancing than changing damage values and then making sideB useful.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I don't agree that its unfair for the opponent. It is all part of one MU, the Zelda/Sheik MU. It is a move they each have that allows them to shift their abilities. Is Fire/Ice Samus unfair? Lucas' Offense Up? Desyncing Nana?

And removing transform and adding a different downB doesn't give them any more leeway for balancing than changing damage values and then making sideB useful.

Samus only changes the properties of her moves, but the overall time to activate them is just about the same. It also barely changes the way you have to deal with her.

Lucas' power up changes the properties of his move and makes them trump everything else when it comes to clanking. Like Ike's or Bowser's smashes do. Lucas has to fully charge in one session too, meaning you can't do it with a little bit of space between you and your opponent. It is a bit OP tho.

Desyncing Nana/Popo can hurt and help. But Ice Climbers are barely used just for that reason. It doesn't drastically change the match up either.

-----

The addition of Squirtle's sideB gave him a new move that can be used offensively to approach or defensively against chasers.

Ivysaur's downB gave him a way to be more defensive by scaring people away. It also acts as a way to evacuate the dance floor when approaching.

One move can make a difference.

-----

When Zelda and Sheik transform they swap EVERYTHING. The changes are very drastic for each move too.
4 different throws
different pummels
different grab speed/length
5 entirely different aerials
3 different specials
3 different tilts
3 different smashes
different wavedashes
different dash dances
different techs
different jump speeds/distances
different rolls
different recoveries
different gravities
different hurtboxes

You can only use the Samus -> ZSS transformation to compare with Zelda/Sheik. However it was a oneway transformation without the use of Smash Balls. Also, it has been removed. :|

I love being able to swap, hence my old stance. But it is still unfair in more ways than one.

 

[4tlas]

Samus only changes the properties of her moves, but the overall time to activate them is just about the same. It also barely changes the way you have to deal with her.

Lucas' power up changes the properties of his move and makes them trump everything else when it comes to clanking. Like Ike's or Bowser's smashes do. Lucas has to fully charge in one session too, meaning you can't do it with a little bit of space between you and your opponent. It is a bit OP tho.

Desyncing Nana/Popo can hurt and help. But Ice Climbers are barely used just for that reason. It doesn't drastically change the match up either.

-----

The addition of Squirtle's sideB gave him a new move that can be used offensively to approach or defensively against chasers.

Ivysaur's downB gave him a way to be more defensive by scaring people away. It also acts as a way to evacuate the dance floor when approaching.

One move can make a difference.

I agree that one move can make a difference, and currently their downB functions as a whole set of moves. Some players choose not to use them just as many players don't use Sheik's chain. If Sheik needs a new move they should change the chain first (and its so useless I think they should). From the perspective of Zelda and Sheik mains, I think it is just a move they are choosing not to use, just as if I wished to play Fire Samus. Or my playstyle never used Mario Tornado offensively, only to recover (like Sheik's Transform can be).

From the perspective of other players, it does reduce Zelda/Sheik's counterpickability in a competitive setting, but I don't think that's a problem. The counterpick process favors characters with a consistent spread rather than an above average but polarized spread. I don't think Zelda or Sheik's good matchups are so significant that they make the combo OP. Is there some other reason opponents would dislike this mechanic?

 

[Lil Puddin]

I agree that one move can make a difference, and currently their downB functions as a whole set of moves.

You just summarized the unfairness.

1st part because they lose out on another move as that one character. Also, if they were separated their moves would probably be overhauled to be more fair and make them the same kind of "viable" (complete) as other characters.

2nd part. The MU still changes. Luigi has a fun time with Zelda (she is helpless against really fast aerial characters). . He can use his fireball to easily trick Zelda into using the right move at the wrong time or as baiting. She can't easily deal with fast moves or people who can cover a lot of ground quickly.

Sheik on the other hand has fun tormenting Luigi midair while needle throwing to ruins any chance of Luigi baiting. Luigi has to wavedash like crazy to get close enough to Sheik or play some vicious mind games. Sheik just has to avoid being thrown off the stage.

Most of their MUs change how the battle goes. It forces the opponent to change how they approach you, but it does it in a way that is outside of your character's normal range of skills. (Since downB is a character swap and Zelda isn't Zelda if she's Sheik or viceversa.)

 

[4tlas]

You just summarized the unfairness.

1st part because they lose out on another move as that one character. Also, if they were separated their moves would probably be overhauled to be more fair and make them the same kind of "viable" (complete) as other characters.

2nd part. The MU still changes. Luigi has a fun time with Zelda (she is helpless against really fast aerial characters). . He can use his fireball to easily trick Zelda into using the right move at the wrong time or as baiting. She can't easily deal with fast moves or people who can cover a lot of ground quickly.

Sheik on the other hand has fun tormenting Luigi midair while needle throwing to ruins any chance of Luigi baiting. Luigi has to wavedash like crazy to get close enough to Sheik or play some vicious mind games. Sheik just has to avoid being thrown off the stage.

Most of their MUs change how the battle goes. It forces the opponent to change how they approach you, but it does it in a way that is outside of your character's normal range of skills. (Since downB is a character swap and Zelda isn't Zelda if she's Sheik or viceversa.)

Each of those sets of moves has gaping holes the other is designed to fill, but doesn't quite. The example you provided is an example of a character that is countered by one of the MUs and is thus countered by both. With so many characters, why is that a problem? Luigi is a character that has polarizing matchups because he can do 2 things really well and nothing else (lateral ground movement and aerial priority). So Luigi gets countered by 2 characters, Zelda and Sheik, because Zelda is Sheik. Why is this unfair? I would say Mario counters both Zelda and Sheik, so someone should play that to counter Zelda and Sheik. What counters Mewtwo? Isn't that more unfair than Zelda/Sheik? I really don't see your point here, sorry.

 

[Kaeldiar]

If Sheilda were unfair, then Sheilda would win every tournament. That's all that has to be said.

 

[internetmovieguy]

Transform is the only move in the same that removes Snake's C4. Keep transform because it was in melee!

 

[4tlas]

Transform is the only move in the same that removes Snake's C4. Keep transform because it was in melee!

Snake's C4 detonator removes C4. Just sayin.

 

[Deleted member]

Transform is the only move in the same that removes Snake's C4. Keep transform because it was in melee!

But Project M has obviously moved beyond just doing things that were in Melee. I vote no transform. I'm curious to see what new moves they would give Sheik and Zelda.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Transform is the only move in the same that removes Snake's C4. Keep transform because it was in melee!

A fun fact is that you don't even have to complete the transform. I was transforming to try to remove it, got hit (and thus didn't actually transform), but the C4 still dropped off.

 

[4tlas]

A fun fact is that you don't even have to complete the transform. I was transforming to try to remove it, got hit (and thus didn't actually transform), but the C4 still dropped off.

Whaaaaaat? I thought it fell off because there was no entity to be attached to, but that shouldn't happen until you are invuln right?

 

[Peeta]

To me, it would lose the very nature that Zelda is as a character if she and Sheik were separated.

Also, my method of Sheik to rack up damage to 100% -> Zelda for the KO would be negated completely. So I selfishly vote no.

 

[flying_tortoise]

A fun fact is that you don't even have to complete the transform. I was transforming to try to remove it, got hit (and thus didn't actually transform), but the C4 still dropped off.

Isn't that why u do grounded transform to shield, roll to get away just in case explosion?

Also I say "Neh!" To the removal of transform

 

[Lil Puddin]

After getting a sample of Zelda and Sheik as their own characters... I can safely say that transformation is totes holding them back from being different and awesooome. So much winning with Zeldoo. Dem KO options and attacks tho. Hax edge guarding. Aggressive options galore. I'm so spoiled now.

Sheik is too OP tho.

But still PM will never separate the two because Melee. So it's whatever at this point.

 

[Boondocker]

Separate them. With both Zelda and Sheik both being viable, counterpicking them becomes that much harder. They are unfair.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Why not just have a taunt be transform instead? Sure can't do it in air while recovering to make it safer, but it frees down b to be an option for both characters.
Zelda could get light arrows, a move that could give people a reason to approach her good combo game instead of walling her out all day.

And since sheik will not be getting side b tether to compliment her down throw going to pit and ganon instead of her, why not either give her a ninja flip that functions similar to zss flip, or at the very least a second grounded option to compliment justifying her mediocre recovery.
Or better yet, leave it the same since 3.5 is already coming soon, and universal balancing of the cast will make them better characters anyway.

 

[artofskjet]

Why not just have a taunt be transform instead? Sure can't do it in trecover to make it safer, but it frees down b to be an option for both characters.
Zelda could get light arrows, a move that could give people a reason to approach her good combo game instead of walling her out all day.

And since sheik will not be getting side b tether to compliment her down throw going to pit and ganon instead of her, why not either give her a ninja flip that functions similar to zss flip, or at the very least a second grounded option to compliment justifying her mediocre recovery.
Or better yet, leave it the same since 3.5 is already coming soon, and universal balancing of the cast will make them better characters anyway.

That last sentence was great. Zelda and sheik were meant to be together not some pokemon. ZSS and Samus is like Doc and Mario with two different character slots. I honestly viewed Zelda transforming as unique until Sakurai said everyone can transform. If anyone deserves to keep the mechanic this duo does.

edit : I know using Doc and Mario wasn't the best example to compare ZSS and Samus

 

[4tlas]

That last sentence was great. Zelda and sheik were meant to be together not some pokemon. ZSS and Samus is like Doc and Mario with two different character slots. I honestly viewed Zelda transforming as unique until Sakurai said everyone can transform. If anyone deserves to keep the mechanic this duo does.

edit : I know using Doc and Mario wasn't the best example to compare ZSS and Samus

I'm sorry you lost me. The only transformations are Samus - ZSS, Zelda - Sheik, and Pokemon. Then in PM they balanced as if they took out the Samus - ZSS one because Final Smashes are not used in tournament, they took out the Pokemon one because transforming forced you to go in a specific order (no Char -> Ivy, Ivy -> Squirt, Squirt -> Char), and they left in the Zelda - Sheik one because...well I don't know but I'm glad they did. I think I agree with you, but I didn't understand everything you said...

 

[artofskjet]

I'm sorry you lost me. The only transformations are Samus - ZSS, Zelda - Sheik, and Pokemon. Then in PM they balanced as if they took out the Samus - ZSS one because Final Smashes are not used in tournament, they took out the Pokemon one because transforming forced you to go in a specific order (no Char -> Ivy, Ivy -> Squirt, Squirt -> Char), and they left in the Zelda - Sheik one because...well I don't know but I'm glad they did. I think I agree with you, but I didn't understand everything you said...

i'm saying that I feel Zelda and sheik should be the only characters with this ability.IMO and that the other characters who could originally transform just doesn't give the same feeling, I went on to compare to ZSS's and Samus's transformation to something similar to Doc and Mario and I think Pokemon trainer was just bad ( Personal Opinion ). They were three completely different characters bunched up and the only thing that linked them was Pokemon. At leas Samus/ZSS was the same person.

 

[4tlas]

Ok I gotcha. I like Samus/ZSS' transformation in the sense it forced you to transform and use the other moveset, but I didn't like it because I never quite liked the frequency of smashballs. The fatigue system for Pokemon theoretically did that too, but it was unclear and obtuse. That leaves Zelda/Sheik as having this as a unique ability, and that's a good reason for why it should stay.

 

[Taytertot]

im definitely of the opinion that zelda and shiek should be there own characters. it doesnt feel like they benefit from being connected to each other. I feel like if they gave shiek a farther upB and then something interesting for a new downB, itd be better for shiek then trying to make shiek and zelda dependent on each other. As it is I dont feel that shiek is dependent on zelda's moveset in any way so allowing shiek to be her own character would be better. As for zelda I feel that zelda would be better with a downB (or give another move from her moveset to downB so it can be replaced with a new move) that would allow zelda to cover one of her weaknesses a bit more instead of relying on shiek.

In the same way that the three pokemon are better on their own I think these two would be as well.

 

[flying_tortoise]

sheik is a top 3 character in melee, and was nerfed when she came to PM by taking away her chain grab. It is very hard to believe that the PMDT would allow an already balanced character to have a brand new side B and a brand new down B.. She is amazing without those 2 moves. If you were to actually have her get 2 brand new moves, they will just be more useless moves. You don't buff an already good characters just because you can. That is why lucas, ivysaur, zelda, and every other character is getting nerfed in 3.5

Sure I guess you could give her moves that were to be useful in very particular situations, but imo it isn't worth the cost of taking away transform.
But I am biased as a shielda and loves how she was created originally.

TL:DR
You can't just buff sheik even after separating her from zelda...

 

[red hot roy]

i used to play a sheik/zelda combination, but as of recent i find it better to just play them separately. I just don't know what they could do for their new down B's, i don't think they would copy their smash 4 ones, but they could possibly do that.

 

[Taytertot]

i think that the concept of keeping downB as transform suggests that the characters should for some reason be unable to do certain things by themselves and therefore need their counterpart in order to handle aspects of the game that the other lacks but both characters in this version of PM seem completely self-sufficient (while they do both have weaknesses i wouldnt by any means go as far as to say that those weaknesses are larger then those of any other character really) and so having the transform take up apart of their movesets feels very unnecessary.

 

[Abel SSB]

it does not make her broken so there is no need to get rid of it

 

[Taytertot]

it does not make her broken so there is no need to get rid of it

whether or not its broken isnt really the problem. my issue is that the design itself suggests that you need to main both characters to adapt properly to situations and thats not the case. you can main one without the other and win a tourney and id prefer having the entire moveset benefit maining one character rather then two. also not that i think its a huge problem but being able to switch from zelda to sheik mid-match is kinda like having a counterpick character in the middle of a game instead of counterpicking after a game, which also effects the way an opponent would decide to ban stages since zelda and sheik i feel do well on different stage sizes they can cover a lot of stages by maining both which almost defeats the purpose of stage bans.

 

[Abel SSB]

Your right. You don't have to main both characters but the people who do should have the advantage because they can play both. Also they are about the same on every stage there wouldn't be a point in switching unless you were a sheilda main. It won't really hurt the game if transform stayed.

 

[Taytertot]

really? i feel like they would both be good on different stages. zelda is much more defense heavy and doesnt want others to have a lot of space to move around so small stages were dins cuts off a larger portion of the stage would be best but sheik has pretty good speed to apply to medium and somewhat larger stages and needles are good camping tools forcing the opponent to have to get across a large stage (meaning more time to throw needles) to get in close where sheik can then capitalize on the somewhat limited approach options due to needles cutting off DDing, then sheik ideally gets them offstage (which sheik should be near while needle camping) where sheik can use her great edgeguard game. if sheik has to approach due to the specific mu then shes got a very low crawl to avoid some projectiles and a relatively fast top run speed so larger stages wouldnt be terrible for her when approaching, though i could see sheik mains picking a small stage vs super campy characters to close the gap fast.