Is it worth it to put Dr. Mario in his own slot?

[RedFly]

I thought this would be a good discussion.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

No

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

PM Mario is literally the best of Melee Mario and Dr. Mario combined. PM Doc is just a skin for Mario. In other words, no.

 

[RedFly]

PM Mario is literally the best of Melee Mario and Dr. Mario combined. PM Doc is just a skin for Mario. In other words, no.

But what if PM Dr. Mario's own slot could introduce new and simple attributes to the character?

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

It really isn't worth it because historically, one is better for the specific metagame than the other, so once people figure which one is better, they shift towards that character. Unless they give completely different attributes to Doc, not necessarily just animations, Mario and Doc basically have the same playstyle. So really, it is better off for Doc to be a skin in this case since playing him makes you feel like you are still playing Mario, as compared to playing Fox versus Falco.

 

[RedFly]

It really isn't worth it because historically, one is better for the specific metagame than the other, so once people figure which one is better, they shift towards that character. Unless they give completely different attributes to Doc, not necessarily just animations, Mario and Doc basically have the same playstyle. So really, it is better off for Doc to be a skin in this case since playing him makes you feel like you are still playing Mario, as compared to playing Fox versus Falco.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Okay about that... xD. In Lucina's case, her attributes are not really separate from Marth, aside from not having the tip mechanic, so she feels like you're playing a nerfed Marth. She actually was going to be just a skin at first as well as Doc. This is just an example of different development styles between the PMDT and Nintendo with Sakurai.

 

[RedFly]

Okay about that... xD. In Lucina's case, her attributes are not really separate from Marth, aside from not having the tip mechanic, so she feels like you're playing a nerfed Marth. She actually was going to be just a skin at first as well as Doc. This is just an example of different development styles between the PMDT and Nintendo with Sakurai.

So who says Dr. Mario can't just be in his own slot and have special effects with his pills or cape? His artwork, model, and visual effects are already complete anyway.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I feel I came across that way. The Graphics for his skin are made now, but the team wants most of the characters to be unique in hitboxes and attributes. I guess the team doesn't see much of a difference with the two, so they decided to combine the two. Besides, having both skins in one slot allows for the Mario players to not have to worry about the differences between the two and rather just pick the skin they like. Another example that I can give is akin to my man Link and his clone(s). There are certain aspects about Young/Toon Link that are slightly different from Link himself, but they are not significant enough (at least right now) other than speed really. This leads to the same playstyle for the clones as well as Link except faster, which doesn't give you the feeling that you are playing a whole new character. I guess there are people who don't mind having characters that have the same attributes and playstyle while looking close to or exactly like the same character, but I don't know those people personally. Those are my thoughts. It really is up to whether the PMDT wants to start or sees potential in developing Doc as a separate character at the end of the day. Sakurai did this for some of his games, so let's see.

 

[RedFly]

Honestly, I don't even see what's wrong with giving Dr. Mario his own slot and not making ANY changes. Him as a costume makes him feel more forgettable and not stand out as much.

Oh yeah and .

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I kinda feel the exact opposite. If we don't have him being that different from Mario and him having a different slot, he just becomes even more forgettable, aside from the typical "Why have him here? He is just Mario in a different suit. He should be a skin." Also, Zero Suit Samus is very different from Samus, so that is not the same thing at all unlike Lucina vs. Marth.

 

[RedFly]

I kinda feel the exact opposite. If we don't have him being that different from Mario and him having a different slot, he just becomes even more forgettable, aside from the typical "Why have him here? He is just Mario in a different suit. He should be a skin." Also, Zero Suit Samus is very different from Samus, so that is not the same thing at all unlike Lucina vs. Marth.

It doesn't matter if ZSS is very different from Samus, she could already be selected by just pressing R on Samus's slot, but Project M just gave her her own slot anyway showing that they don't have much trouble putting in another slot.

If Project M is about combining Brawl and Melee then I feel it's more appropriate to give a character in Melee there slot back instead of merging it with another character regardless of how similar they are.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I don't think that this discussion is going to end anytime soon. I made my point with my own evidence and opinions to say that I think it isn't worth the effort, but you disagree, which is fine as well. Besides, I would've liked to fight for Pichu's place back if that is what you are saying for the sake of Doc. If this discussion is going to continue, there should be more people involved in this than just you and me going back and forth. Also, (you don't have to answer this) if you don't main Doc in Melee, or even Mario in PM, why does it matter so much to you? It would be obvious as to why you would not main PM Mario, sort of, when you prefer Doc instead, but you main Mario. If anything, PMDT helped Mario become even better with adding the benefits of Doc. Same thing goes for Doc mains for recovery also. I just don't get why someone would want to separate them again.

---------------

Edit: Ok, you switched to Doc in Melee and switched PM mains still to non-Mario. You must not like PM Mario thereby spawning this thread.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

Why would it be worth it to put Doc in his own slot?

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I don't know.

 

[Keman]

Just to remind you Redfly, or incase you didn't know. There is only a certain amount of Character slots that the PMDT can use with PM. I forget how many they have left, but giving Doc his own slot would take away a slot they might could use for someone that is more unique in the future.

Edit: I mixed up who the OP was >.> made a name correction

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I know, I'm not an advocate for Doc having his own slot. RedFlyNinja is.

 

[RedFly]

I'm not saying that if Dr. Mario was to have his own slot then he would have to take away from the original Mario, but rather be a semi-clone of Mario similar to Lucas and Wolf.

New changes Dr. Mario could introduce:

- Smash 64 Forward Smash.
- Smash 64 Forward Air.
- Smash 64 Back Air.
- Pills have fire and ice effects. (Fever and Chills)
- Up Special has new effects and sounds rather than just Coins.
- Dr. Mario would keep the down taunt while Mario gets a peace sign taunt from Super Mario 64.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

I'm not saying that if Dr. Mario was to have his own slot then he would have to take away from the original Mario, but rather be a semi-clone of Mario similar to Lucas and Wolf.

New changes Dr. Mario could introduce:

- Smash 64 Forward Smash.
- Smash 64 Forward Air.
- Smash 64 Back Air.
- Pills have fire and ice effects. (Fever and Chills)
- Up Special has new effects and sounds rather than just Coins.
- Dr. Mario would keep the down taunt while Mario gets a peace sign taunt from Super Mario 64.

Although I do think Doc could theoretically be interesting in his own slot; especially with lots of de-cloning, it simply isn't worth the PM team taking up a character slot for what is essentially just a re-skin.

 

[RedFly]

Although I do think Doc could theoretically be interesting in his own slot; especially with lots of de-cloning, it simply isn't worth the PM team taking up a character slot for what is essentially just a re-skin.

Well, I guess Project M just isn't what it used to be (Merging Brawl and Melee together) but rather just a project that a big team is using to put a bunch of stuff they want into Brawl like Knuckles, Ninja Costumes, and a Castlevania Stage.

It's not necessarily a bad thing but I thought this idea of actually making Dr. Mario his own playable character again would be better than just making him an alt costume.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Yeah, I agree with WaffleDinosaur on this one. There still are many unique characters that have potential to be added in like Takamaru, Issac, (Heck, even Ridley and Chibo). It's to the point that Doc (and Pichu too) should not be priorities for new characters. For them to be so, much decloning would have to be done (and balancing, Pichu whhhhyyyyy).

Edit: And besides, it still has the same concepts. It brought faster, combo-based gameplay that gives many people an adrenaline rush. Besides, many games evolve from original concepts (rarely do the original ideas end up being the final ideas). Yes, it started out as a Melee expansion project, but now it became much more. We have balancing (albeit some controversial changes depending on who you ask), we have the chance to become adaptable as players to numerous MUs rather than be stuck on the idea that there should only be so many MUs to learn, and we have the chance to bring the best of any smash game into one to create the best competitive, no, best smash game that the community can come together to improve it over time. Is there some glaring issue with a patch? Ok, we can analyze it in depth and fix it. Did our fine tuning go overboard? Ok, we can look at it closely and make it go slightly back but not too much. This is the beauty of developing a game and having a community help make it better in general. Personally, I would be interested to see if Snake's and Sonic's playstyles can be used instead under different Nintendo-based characters and change the design of their respective stages to maybe have this game go beyond grassroots since third-party content is a main issue.

 

[RedFly]

Yeah, I agree with WaffleDinosaur on this one. There still are many unique characters that have potential to be added in like Takamaru, Issac, (Heck, even Ridley and Chibo). It's to the point that Doc (and Pichu too) should not be priorities for new characters. For them to be so, much decloning would have to be done (and balancing, Pichu whhhhyyyyy).

Do completely new and unique characters equal something like Dr. Mario having gameplay tweaks?

 

[Rugal Cuttah]

I thought this would be a good discussion.

I dont think he should have his own character slot but be a costume for mario instead and make room for the non clone cast that didnt make the cut. Ice climbers and lucas or declone completely the clone characters than put them back.-Roy,Lucina,Pichu,Gannondorf,etc. To be fair to everyone that wanted their pacific character in the new smash 4. I think nintendo is lazy on those they didnt even try to change and just put clone character to fill in gaps instead putting effort into developing move sets unique to each and all characters. The new smash would be perfect if that were the case for me least.

 

[RedFly]

I dont think he should have his own character slot but be a costume for mario instead and make room for the non clone cast that didnt make the cut. Ice climbers and lucas or declone completely the clone characters than put them back.-Roy,Lucina,Pichu,Gannondorf,etc. To be fair to everyone that wanted their pacific character in the new smash 4. I think nintendo is lazy on those they didnt even try to change and just put clone character to fill in gaps instead putting effort into developing move sets unique to each and all characters. The new smash would be perfect if that were the case for me least.

It was said that clone characters were put into Melee not out of laziness but to just fill in the roster as it looked too small, so it was essentially filler instead of just cheating some development time for certain characters.

 

[Rugal Cuttah]

It was said that clone characters were put into Melee not out of laziness but to just fill in the roster as it looked too small, so it was essentially filler instead of just cheating some development time for certain characters.

yeah its sad aint it. maybe cause of pressured time constraints in the development process in video games these days.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Do completely new and unique characters equal something like Dr. Mario having gameplay tweaks?

No, I would not say that. To a degree, Lucas, Wolf, Pichu, Roy, Doc, Lucina, Dark Pit, and to an extent even Falco and Ganondorf, depends on the game, feel similar in gameplay to the original members. I'm saying new, unique characters like Palutena, Mewtwo, Snake, Sonic, Bowser even, are the types that should be prioritized. But if another group is successful in the future, we could get similar characters along with new ones. The group is trying to get something similar to BrawlEx to work with PM, and that can satisfy any of the players with adding in new characters.

 

[Rugal Cuttah]

It was said that clone characters were put into Melee not out of laziness but to just fill in the roster as it looked too small, so it was essentially filler instead of just cheating some development time for certain characters.

I have consider what you argue but to agree to disagree because of what nintendo is, a company known to put a 110 percent creativity/effort into games. These clone characters are poor efforts/dont fit to nintendo s reputation and come off as lazy by some even if it wasnt their intention to be seen that way, it can be. Ganondorf is a great example of no effort has been made to drastically changed him to make him more his own character, people hated that he has the same moves from brawl.-not even wielding the sword he uses in that zelda still. I have to say, it comes off that way to me too. I have to stand by my view about it. Its is still poor choice on their part. Nintendo can do better than sad reskins. Decapre is what think of, a disappointment rather than a entirely new character. I know to me, that would be a better step in a better direction and make nintendo look better to those that were disappointed. So I stick with yes, doctor mario is a wasted slot and should just be a costume for regular mario to make room for new non reskin characters or decloned returns like roy. Cannot excuse that at all and cant help it if smash 4 could of been done better. Its my final stand on the matter.(sorry it took too long to respond,cannot be online sat and fri. )

 

[PlateProp]

Lmao this guy

ZSS and Samus have always had their own individual slots, just as Zelda and Shiek

Why use one of 5 slots remaining for an alt costume, that's extremely wasteful

 

[RedFly]

ZSS and Samus have always had their own individual slots, just as Zelda and Shiek

for an alt costume

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

When he said zss and samus, he meant in PM. Your second pic is just melee. There isn't much else to say, that hasn't been said already.

Look, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the dev team, will not make this dream come alive for you. Give it a rest.

 

[RedFly]

When he said zss and samus, he meant in PM. Your second pic is just melee. There isn't much else to say, that hasn't been said already.

Look, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the dev team, will not make this dream come alive for you. Give it a rest.

They probably won't.

 

[PlateProp]

Lmao, this just shows your ignorance. Just because their pictures were together on the css doesnt mean they shared slots

Melee css is irrelevant, Doc is a costume in PM

Edit because you orolly wont get t anyway: one CSS pic =/= one slot

 

[GeZ]

That first no from ez was really as far as this thread needed to go. Geez.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

My comments only encouraged the back-forth dynamic. My bad.