Finally a break from H2W... now to write an essay <_<
This is something I wish more people paid attention to. Landing lag animaions can potentially be used to dodge, and a landing hitbox could be given more active frames and potentially cover more options when say, edgeguarding. There aren't particularly great examples of them, but these would be valid reasons not to L-cancel.
Edit: talking about the Pika bair part
Landing animations can't dodge properly spaced attacks unless it's like Luigi's green missile or something that really isn't going to be used by an opponent as a counterattack option. And you don't extend hitboxes [or at least the frame data thread indicates that's not the case].
There is no valid reason not to L-cancel, unless you are autocancelling or ledge-cancelling something, and if you are, properly inputting an L-cancel still means you do not suffer any negative side effects. You might try to insist there is some reason to L-cancel, but profesionals are prepared to punish aerials, missed L-cancels or not, and they're not going to be using moves that will be easily ducked [there's no way you can duck anything that a Fox player would reasonably use as a punish, and the same is true for Falco - while you could duck Sheik's fair, that has so little endlag, and so often auto-cancels, that you'll just be grabbed anyway, and the list goes on].
ObdurateMARio said:
Wavedashes are super crazy awesome. It allows for a level of control over your character that is unparalleled in any other Smash game. It allows for perfect spacing, momentum switches, faster, harder punishes. There is literally no element to Melee that isn't enhanced by wavedashing in some way. It, or a similar mechanic, should be present in all smash titles in the future, although ofc there won't be.
Airdodging, and therefore counterplay around juggling and some other elements of the game, is hampered by wavedashing's input method. Multiple airdodges makes for a more complex juggle game [as does the added endlag in smash 4]. I'm personally in favor of doing it like Brawl Minus Fox, where an airdodge with a direction causes a momentum shift and induces helplessness, but an airdodge with no analog input causes no momentum change [so you keep falling] and are not put into specialfall. Alternatively, an airdash button especially set to the trigger not used for shield/airdodge would accomplish the same goal. I do not see this as likely, but wavedashing does not uniformly enhance all features of the game.
the muted smasher said:
Missing l cancels can be useful, like this fox that missed every bair l cancel ever cause he was bad at it and when I went to rest him oos because he went way to deep the lag had him duck to low for to long to get him. Also pika bair vs high grabs.
Not even counting ics non sense to try to make You miss the timing.
My answer to any wavedash debate is it was put in for board the platform from 64 but because of time issues they only made waveland/wavedash but no btp. : (
There's a "learn to aim" message here and something about Hbox doing it better...
ICs shield is beaten by triple buffer [still dumb, special tech vs them I suppose]. I'd be interested to see how much buffering a Ganondorf stomping 4 ICs player's shields while a barrage of Sheik needles is on the ground would have to do to ensure an L-cancel instead of the usual single-press method.
I don't understand what you're trying to answer in a wavedashing debate, but there was no wavedashing in 64. There was teleporting [and that's some cool stuff], but airdodging and thus wavedashing were non-existent in 64 [and spotdodging was gone too - as a result I land 100% of my shield drops in 64
].
C-SAF said:
I don't think Thor is out of line with his thinking, or trying to suggest the game sucks with l-Canceling. Thought Id say this because discussing the merits of a game mechanic is different from attacking an entire game/community/person.
Lets just take the tone down a bit in this thread, I enjoy the topic of this discussion and hope it doesn't degrade into a flame war, or a "u think its too hard for people then don't play" argument. It shouldn't be either.
I'm not saying the game sucks with L-cancelling, I'm saying it'd be functionally the same at top-level play without it and half landing lag. Although unlikely, this is something I would infinitely prefer being pushed over L-cancelling if the competitive community had any say with Sakurai whatsoever, because Sakurai hears less landing lag and might think, "Um, that's kind of short for such a strong move", but he hears L-cancelling and probably thinks something more like "They want to press more buttons and make new players feel inferior for not being able to do it. TERRIBLE! NO!" I also think it's better game design, and I'll get into that later. But I'm certainly glad that L-cancelling exists, as opposed to removing it and no lag compensation [I don't even mind laggy aerials (commit or don't use it or w/e), but that's probably because I love all Smash - people I know don't play Brawl because stuff is too laggy (and other excuses), so I'm glad I have at least 1 game to play since things don't lag too much for them [Melee or PM] instead of no smash scene because people whine about lag].
Massive said:
If L-cancelling was not an important requisite to adding options and playing well, nobody would do it.
Lets look at some other things similar in use and utility to L-cancelling. Most people agree that these have great merit to the game.
- Shield dropping is a completely arbitrary, precisely timed input that is universally better than any other way to fall through a platform. You gain the option of performing any aerial action after a shield drop.
- Power shielding is a very tightly timed technique that is both universally better than regular shielding and if possible should be done every time you shield. You gain the option of performing any action after a powershield, many times with frame advantage.
- SDIing is universally better than regular DI and requires a precise, fast input. You should SDI every possible time you have the chance. You gain the option of escaping an attack or combo and possibly retaliating to it.
- L-cancels are completely arbitrary, precisely timed inputs that are universally better than landing with an aerial out normally. You gain the option of comboing attacks that would not normally combo in addition to the ability to perform any action faster than you would without l-cancelling.
Melee has a reputation for being a very technical game. L-cancelling is a
very low technical bar that is pretty easy to overcome for new players with practice. A very high technical ceiling is often supported by arbitrary or repetitive inputs.
It is very obvious that
none of these are perfect mechanics, many of them emergent behaviors from gray areas in the physics engine, but saying they don't increase depth is silly. Increasing player options, increasing the complexity of inputs, and adding additional margins for error
most certainly give a game depth and make it more technically demanding.
If you decide that you don't like the way we play the game that's totally your prerogative, you don't have to play melee competitively.
We can't really change melee here, so arguing and complaining about what it is will do absolutely nothing about changing it, and everything about making people not like you.
Here's the problem with literally all of your examples:
you can't remove the functions they have and integrate them seamlessly without fundamentally changing how the game appears and functions when played.
Shield dropping: You can't have spotdodging and shield-dropping at the same time. There could be a separate input created (perhaps holding B and tap down?), but as it stands, spotdodging interferes with this, and the way it is implemented is an acceptable solution [and avoids unnecessary inputs - using B and hitting down would require a button and moving the control stick instead of just moving the control stick]. Also, please please PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought shield dropping was a frame slower than dropping through a platform if your shield is not up? That is, if I'm standing on a platform, isn't it fastest to just fall through and do something instead of bringing shield up then dropping through a frame later? It's not universally better.
Powershielding: Automatic powershielding on hit would remove shieldstun from the game entirely, and that would fundamentally change the nature of Melee and how it's played [defensive options would rule, and while that's considered bad by many, it isn't objectively good or bad, it simply is]. For one thing, every aerial in the game would be unsafe on shield (since you can immediately shieldgrab anything), and shields would all be reflectors [this would not only make reflectors pointless but also turn projectiles into ridiculous shielding matches where the first one to shieldbreak loses]. Shielding can also be baited, and therefore requires a lot of mental fortitude to do every time [if for instance Falco lasers at almost point-blank and the intent is to powershield, but he goes so low the gun draw sound comes out and no laser does, your opponent may very well simply shield and then either be stuck in shield or wavedash OoS (or even worse, drop shield and endure that lag) - this is highly advantageous to Falco because he can SH laser now or approach with a grab or shine]. Again, you could map it to some sort of special input [pressing B becomes like teching - press B to powershield for the next frame, but you can't for the next 20 frames, or something like that], but that not only overlaps with a proposed shield-dropping mechanic [we're running out of buttons since shield-grab is a thing already], but it's clunky compared to just timing the R/L press.
SDI: If you're just talking about DI vs SDI, nope, not universally better than DI. Forbidden Smash DI prevents you from SDIing Fox usmash into the ground [at least if you're airborne] so regular DI will always be better for surviving those aerial single-hit vertical launchers [even if you can SDI like a TAS, regular DI is still beneficial]. However, I'm going to assume you're referring only to combo DI for the remainder of this rebuttal. And even then, there isn't a better input to remap SDI, and no way to automatically incorporate it without radically changing how the game is played. If holding the c-stick/analog stick caused proper SDI every single frame, that would interfere with DI somewhat, but it would also eliminate combos almost completely [I recall seeing an image of TAS SDI of Kirby utilt in Smash 64, and the Link started on the left side of the stack of platforms on the center of Hyrule and ended up almost in the tent area]. SDI isn't something that can be remapped to something else either [they've done the best they can by allowing both sticks to be used to SDI]. We could allow turbo buttons [and I'm pretty sure that only works for things like Fox's gun, not analog inputs], but again, if perfect SDI were possible every time, multi-hit moves would be useless, and combos would be basically impossible.
L-cancelling: If this was removed and replaced with half landing lag on all aerials, well... the only real change in a PPMD-Armada set is that you'd hear them hit L and R a lot less. There are players who have 100% L-cancel rates, and removing L-cancelling would change nothing about their gameplay or how the game comes out onscreen. The same is untrue for every other mechanic you listed above. Which was the whole point I was making - you could remove this input and substitute the lack of input for a more integrated and efficient gameplay experience, without taking away anything that's onscreen. Basically no other input in the entire game shares this characteristic [the new lightpowershielding MIGHT, and wavedashing could have an airdash button that cuts one press out, but to be totally honest, I can't think of anything else... autocancelling b-moves is also about giving up the ability to CC (I think that's a balancing mechanic - Falco's lagless grounded lasers -> CC shine? Gross... but hit him in the air and he can't CC) and all the other mechanics (tilts vs smashes vs jabs, shield angling, lightshielding vs normal shielding and accessing a full lightshield) are all pretty well integrated to be minimal]. And even as the game is easy to play in that sense, the skill ceiling would not be any lower without L-cancelling [or would be very, very fractionally] because of all the ways to input those methods. I think L-cancelling is simply something that makes people press more buttons and so they feel good about it, not something that genuinely adds something to the game, since it could be removed, lag could be compensated, and the game would not look different and (outside of the one input) would not play differently.
I don't think the bar on L-cancelling is particularly high, I just think it is particularly unnecessary and easily worked around to offer the same results as a game with doubled lag and L-cancelling existing.
And here's the thing - I don't think technically demanding = depth - you could play the most technically demanding game of checkers on the planet [having to quickly build mini-rue Goldberg machines to move pieces, or having to play a Fox ditto on FD if you wanted to take a move back, winner decides if move is taken back or not, or a bunch of other really silly rules], but it'd still be checkers. Removing something that could easily be obviated wouldn't make Melee any less deep, it'd just make people have to hit the shield triggers less.
I will state that input complexity is loved and vaunted by many because oftentimes, input complexity is necessary in order to give the players more options [Street Fighter and Marvel have so many combos because they have so many different input combinations - they are technically complex because they have to be]. Smash is different in that what those games would consider the basic moveset is all you have, but it's more than enough to build-a-bear the combos while being as flashy or efficient as you want [you could waveshine a Link, or shine wavedash usmash, or shine wavedash grab, or shine wavedash dtilt, or shine wavedash back taunt into some standing lasers, or whatever]. But in those games, the inputs are usually not made extra-complex just because - there's a risk-reward associated with those that might be considered unnecessarily complex [supers, safe on block, finisher, w/e], but Smash lacks that, and I don't think saying "Oh, well, aerials have to have L hit slightly before you land or they're laggier" is adding to depth of the game, it's just pushing up the APM.
I think I'm getting redundant, but I'll just say that I enjoy competitive Melee, but that I strongly disagree with the viewpoint that L-cancelling is better design than simply removing the extra landing lag and the input all together. I don't think you or anyone else will be able to change my mind either, but I'm willing to discuss these thoughts, since I've changed my mind about other positions before.
I'm also pretty sure most people just hate me anyway, so trying to make people like me strikes me as futile, try as I have in the past. Such is my life, I guess.
1MachGO said:
The issue with your stance is that you are viewing Melee, and even music, in absolutes. Even if you find L-cancelling "wasteful practice", you are failing to acknowledge that strategy and mental play isn't readily intuitive. For many of its members, Melee was their first fighting game. Concepts such as the neutral game, reacting to their opponent, and studying habits would be foreign to them. L-Cancelling is simply refining execution so the implications are readily apparent and the gratification is practically immediate. Furthermore, you can practice it by yourself (something Melee had severely lacked until recently). Its a great introductory technique to these players and you would be lying to yourself if you didn't know that "L-Cancelling" and "Wavedashing" didn't have a low level allure. When I started 4-5 years ago, it was videos like Shined Blind that got me into the game. I don't think Melee and P:M would be so popular if it was a meaningful inhibitor.
On the topic of music, I will keep this brief, but again, you aren't acknowledging exceptions and intricacies. Is music "single player" if you have to keep time with a band or orchestra? What about Jazz music? Prog famously compared it to Melee for possessing both structure and instances of improvisation. Again, stop trying to surmise an entire medium with a single pursuit it cannot be done.
In regards to the idea that winning is the "ultimate" goal, I would agree that this is the inherent nature games, but how you win cannot be understated. There is a reason why barely anybody ledge camps with puff, why matches involving Fox/Falco/Falcon get the most publicity, and why Mango is so much fun to watch. Melee's massive pool of options lends it to being a game of expression. There is a difference between being the absolute best and being the best you can be and the majority of players, such as Bizz, opt for the latter.
As for L-Canceling itself, I don't fully understand the wording of your argument. I was directly responding to the notion where you believed whiffed L-Cancels are impossible to react to (to which I responded this doesn't make sense logically and that there are multiple factors at play). However, now it appears the subject has changed to whether or not L-cancelling is purely artificial and has relevant impact on the game.
Well again, lets reason this logically. Do you honestly think there is no measurable difference between having to L-Cancel Fox's drill shine and the L-Cancel being automatic? What about shield pressure?
See, whats interesting about L-Cancelling is that its subsequent input. To execute an aerial close to the ground, you have to make correct inputs both at the beginning and at the end. So unless you've designed a robot to play smash brothers for you, your brain is now under constraints and your ability to react to new information is now inhibited.
This why I'm not a proponent of "optimum" L-cancelling because by increasing your number of inputs you'd be focusing more on what you HAVE to do and less on what you WILL do next. If L-Cancelling was automatic, this means that all the actions required to execute the aerial would be at the beginning. You wouldn't have to account for "I have to press L, R, or Z when this move hits or when I land". Instead, you would be immediately thinking "If this whiffs/hits shield, I'll run back, if it hits, I'll do a follow up"
If there was no L-Cancelling in Melee, whenever Fox naired you he wouldn't use the hitlag frames to L-Cancel. He would use the hitlag and short as **** landing lag to determine if he is just going to grab you or shine grab you.
Wavedashing does that, L-cancelling seems to turn away most people I know. I got into things by learning to L-cancel, but that didn't mean I didn't think it was poor design choice.
I have always thought strategy in a competition is intuitive. If you are playing to win, you darn well better have a means of winning. If that makes me abnormal, I will be unapologetically abnormal, and continue to believe that if you intend to compete, you should already have a method to maximize your odds of victory [which is why many practice and play only one character - that's just basic strategy].
There is synchronization involved in a band or orchestra, very true. However, you are doing a 1v1 in Melee or a 2v2, at best, a comparison to Melee is like those Guitar Hero battles where you duel the devil or whatever [and I'm not making any comparison about music quality, etc., I'm only stating that the form Melee takes relative to the form music takes would be either single player, or a rock/jazz/whatever battle]. You could compare an 8v8 to a small band vs another small band in a battle of the bands [I guess...], but this is Melee, so it's a 1v1 endeavor - you vs yourself or you vs an opponent. That's why my examples seem so reductionist - teaming with a group of 100 people as you perform at a football stadium [or whatever] is not really comparable to Melee [individual experiences in a band might be, but the act as a whole is not].
I'm pretty sure most people who attempt to be the best they can be want to be the absolute best, and many work toward that - however, only a few people have these goals coincide [I think it's up in the air with PPMD, Mango, and Armada]. People say how you win matters, but I think that's a stylistic choice [as Melee opens it up], and that's also why I think some people could be better - they're simply inefficient [that's also why I love Laudandus's Sheik, although most of the time saying that just gets me sneered at XD].
My argument is two-fold - I don't think one can react to missed L-cancels effectively [except I'll admit it's easy versus Ganondorf's dair and workable vs some other moves like Falcon's stomp, poor Ganondorf], but I can't expect anyone to react to Pichu missing an L-cancelled nair [the extreme example] or more realistically, I don't think many people react to Link missing an L-cancelled fair [15 frames not L-cancelled]. Admittedly, missing an L-cancel does open up holes in shield pressure, but those holes don't really exist at the top level, so in a game that would be designed for competition, it's an unnecessary input if lag is compensated [as I said above].
Something something this post is really long something something this is tiring something something muscle memory.
I don't think for someone who practices long enough, L-cancelling Fox's drill shine [the drill, shining, and repeating] is harder than any other tech. It takes longer to get used to it and do it perhaps, but if one practices enough, they'll get it down. And while you may focus on inputs rather than the opponent, I usually am focusing on the opponent when they are being pressured by my Falco [my shield pressure is meh since I don't practice enough but when I'm on point it's about as tight as Falco shield pressure can be (which isn't even that tight if it's any extended duration, since one early aerial and you're getting grabbed or OoS attacked)].
I think it's something we'll have to agree to disagree upon. I don't find this to be much, if any, of an obstacle, and I'm pretty sure the top players don't either [except possibly M2K].
The moment my aerial is out I'm already thinking about followups and potential DI if I space badly, not about hitting the L-cancel, but I'll state that if Fox does his nair too high, he'll get hit by something [even Link can up+B OoS it], and you can still buffer things out and ISSDI if he's got a good nair - neither of which is ideal (ISSDI is also ridiculously hard), but there's definitely counterplay. And some characters add that third option of up+B OoS to the mix [Link's is too slow, Bowser's is amazing, Samus's is kinda goodish on Yoshi's, I think Doc's is workable depending on stage position, there may be more (Peach just came to mind, but I'm not going through the whole roster to figure this out)].
Somehow this post only took me 2 hours to write. I'm not editing it though [I need dinner], so if there are typos, notify me and I'll fix them [if people actually care].
