• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Is it weird that I like wavedashing in Mele but don't want it to return in the future?

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
It's like everyone is baffled at the notion that I like wavedashing in Melee because of the freedom it provides, but I don't want it to return exactly how it is in Melee in the future.

It's like I'm required to want wavedashing to be in every single game afterwards, and have no right to think that balancing a game around it is bad game design.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
It opens up grounded and platform movement options. The game wouldn't be as deep without it, regarding everything else being the same. I think competitive gamers just like depths in their games
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
It's possible to have a competitive meta without it, but the increased movement options it provides are part of the reason melee is so exciting.

I personally think the loss of L-cancelling is a bigger deal than the loss of wavedashing, but that's an entire other can of worms.
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
What is it about wavedashing in particular that makes balancing around it bad game design, as opposed to balancing around any other given movement option (dashing/dash-dancing, walking, short hopping/full hopping, analogue control over horizontal aerial velocity, etc.)?
 
Last edited:

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
What is it about wavedashing that makes balancing around it bad game design, as opposed to balancing around any other given movement option (dashing/dash-dancing, walking, short hopping/full hopping, analogue control over horizontal aerial velocity, etc.)?
It's because it's tied to an action that by intentional design has a completely different purpose: air dodging. People seem to want to assume that I just suck at wavedashing, but the truth is, I've made a lot of progress practicing it and really enjoy doing it. Wavedashing is just a beautiful accident born out of the decision to not make it so that you can't "slide" by airdodging into the ground.

But if you're still going to accuse me of sucking anyway:

Still, I want a quick nearly non-committal movement option that is completely independent of airdodging or anything else. I suggested having a "dash button" that works similarly to Melee's air dodge without the "dodge" part and the helplessness at the end.

And now I'm tempted to unwatch this thread because from prior experience, saying my thoughts on simplifying wavedashing has done nothing but start a pissing contest.
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
It's because it's tied to an action that by intentional design has a completely different purpose: air dodging. People seem to want to assume that I just suck at wavedashing, but the truth is, I've made a lot of progress practicing it and really enjoy doing it. Wavedashing is just a beautiful accident born out of the decision to not make it so that you can't "slide" by airdodging into the ground.
I don't understand how that's bad design. Perhaps it's a difference in perspective/philosophy, but I would say that the fact that it wasn't as intentional part of the design does not invalidate the fact that it is still part of the design; it was intentionally put into the game even if its potential was not entirely understood during development (it still isn't understood now, and may never be fully understood; Melee is deep).

The extent to which a mechanic is "intentional" is a largely meaningless/useless metric, since the way the game is played is heavily influenced by the players and their choices, and it's impossible for the designers to plan for every possibility that could arise from those different players/choices. Even if this wasn't true, the designers' intentions don't really matter in themselves; the game works the same regardless. Melee was necessarily designed with this in mind and the developers expected that mechanics would be exploited in unexpected ways even if they weren't sure of exactly what the methods or the results would be. It is completely impossible to avoid designing around this in a game with any relatively large amount of depth, simply because it is not possible with the limited time and manpower to the developers to think of these things if nothing else.

I wouldn't choose to consider the capacity for emergent gameplay (of which wavedashing is one example) to be "bad design", especially not in a nonlinear or multiplayer game. I don't see what's bad about it from a design perspective or from a practical perspective, because I believe that the design should endeavour to produce the best practical result; since the end result is greatly improved by the existence of wavedashing (you called it a "beautiful accident"), that means it must be good design. A "good deign" and a "good result" are one and the same.

Still, I want a quick nearly non-committal movement option that is completely independent of airdodging or anything else. I suggested having a "dash button" that works similarly to Melee's air dodge without the "dodge" part and the helplessness at the end.

And now I'm tempted to unwatch this thread because from prior experience, saying my thoughts on simplifying wavedashing has done nothing but start a pissing contest.
Threads arguing about wavedashing are almost commonplace; the suggestions and points aren't new, and I don't believe people are willing to try very hard to be civil about why their counterarguments haven't changed after the last 5 threads when the opposing arguments haven't either (which are rarely good arguments regardless).

Reading some of the threads about possible ways of simplifying, replacing, or otherwise improving wavedashing, one of the main problems beyond deciding whether it's a good idea at all (which is a serious problem in itself) is that there has yet to be presented a practical input method for the possible alternative that doesn't interfere with other aspects of the game or otherwise create unnecessary additional complications.

Nothing that I've seen so far would be able to replace wavedashing without fundamentally changing the game; either because of the new mechanic itself, or because the new input method would overlap with an existing one (or have to supercede it entirely), or because other physics interactions would have to work differently to stop wavedashing being possible so the new mechanic can replace it. Considering the number of people that think Melee is the "perfect game (engine)" it would have to be extremely well justified before it could be seriously considered. Beyond that, these things can't actually be hacked into the game to be tested, so discussion is somewhat limited to speculation.
 
Last edited:

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Houston, Texas
Lol it's perfectly fine. I'd like it in another smash but I think it's awesome anyway. I think the fact that wavedashing even exists is cool. So many options.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
Lol it's perfectly fine. I'd like it in another smash but I think it's awesome anyway. I think the fact that wavedashing even exists is cool. So many options.
Just wondering, would you still feel betrayed if a Smash game went with my idea for a noncommital dash/airdash button instead of bringing back Melee's airdodge + physics completely unchanged?

I personally think the loss of L-cancelling is a bigger deal than the loss of wavedashing, but that's an entire other can of worms.
Well, that or decreasing landing lag.

It's like in SF4 where parrying (from SF3) was removed, but to make up for it, they introduced the focus attack. Sakurai is just taking out stuff without making up for it. (Then again, I think SF4 is the Brawl of Street Fighter, so...)

I don't understand how that's bad design. Perhaps it's a difference in perspective/philosophy, but I would say that the fact that it wasn't as intentional part of the design does not invalidate the fact that it is still part of the design; it was intentionally put into the game even if its potential was not entirely understood during development (it still isn't understood now, and may never be fully understood; Melee is deep).

The extent to which a mechanic is "intentional" is a largely meaningless/useless metric, since the way the game is played is heavily influenced by the players and their choices, and it's impossible for the designers to plan for every possibility that could arise from those different players/choices. Even if this wasn't true, the designers' intentions don't really matter in themselves; the game works the same regardless. Melee was necessarily designed with this in mind and the developers expected that mechanics would be exploited in unexpected ways even if they weren't sure of exactly what the methods or the results would be. It is completely impossible to avoid designing around this in a game with any relatively large amount of depth, simply because it is not possible with the limited time and manpower to the developers to think of these things if nothing else.

I wouldn't choose to consider the capacity for emergent gameplay (of which wavedashing is one example) to be "bad design", especially not in a nonlinear or multiplayer game. I don't see what's bad about it from a design perspective or from a practical perspective, because I believe that the design should endeavour to produce the best practical result; since the end result is greatly improved by the existence of wavedashing (you called it a "beautiful accident"), that means it must be good design. A "good deign" and a "good result" are one and the same.
Well, again, I don't think it's bad design on its own. I like how SD Remix balances around it by enhancing the wavedashes of other characters among other stuff, plus it's still just Melee to me.

But I do think that actually requiring it by balancing around it in the future would be bad design as it's at odds with the simple button+direction inputs that I love Smash for. (Which is a beef I have with Project M, though it's becoming apparent to me that PM is much less wave-centric than Melee (or SDR) is.) It's something that should be a template for something greater and with potentially more depth.

The cancelled Air Dash Online intended to do this by entirely replacing Melee airdodging with noncommital airdashing.
 
Last edited:

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
I like the control wavedashing gives u. Literally, I can learn to control and reposition my character just a few pixels depending on the length of the dash. It rewards players for having a real feel for the physics engine, and im yet to find a system that accomplishes it as well. Nor can I think of a better way.

Just having a button would make it like rolling. The length, speed, and "cleaness" of the movement would be predetermined. The fact that it is tied with airdodging makes perfect sense as it is a ground based evasion tactic. U might not "suck" at wavedashing per say, but u might not be taking full advantage of it yet.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
Just having a button would make it like rolling. The length, speed, and "cleaness" of the movement would be predetermined.
What if it's tied to how long you hold down the dash button? Then it would be kinda like jumping in Mario games (jumping in Smash games only gives you short hop and max jump).
 

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
What if it's tied to how long you hold down the dash button? Then it would be kinda like jumping in Mario games (jumping in Smash games only gives you short hop and max jump).
Then I kinda think its easier to wavedash as is, as the length of the wavedash is determined by the angle of the control stick. The time to hold down the button correctly would literally breakdown to milliseconds to get the perfect lengths. I think this is kinda why everyone defaults to the way it is in melee; its hard to figure out easier or better systems that achieve the same precision and relative ease. Its also kinda great that it is a button combination as opposed to just one as it doesn't take up a spot that more basic things can be inputted as; such as rolling or jumping.

What u described also sounds kinda like perfect pivoting, which hasn't had much effect on smash yet, despite being in every single game of the franchise. If there is another system that achieves what wavedashing does then I wont complain, but it would be hard to make it any better/simpler compared to what it is now.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
Then I kinda think its easier to wavedash as is, as the length of the wavedash is determined by the angle of the control stick. The time to hold down the button correctly would literally breakdown to milliseconds to get the perfect lengths. I think this is kinda why everyone defaults to the way it is in melee; its hard to figure out easier or better systems that achieve the same precision and relative ease. Its also kinda great that it is a button combination as opposed to just one as it doesn't take up a spot that more basic things can be inputted as; such as rolling or jumping.

What u described also sounds kinda like perfect pivoting, which hasn't had much effect on smash yet, despite being in every single game of the franchise. If there is another system that achieves what wavedashing does then I wont complain, but it would be hard to make it any better/simpler compared to what it is now.
Well, that's the nature of a change.

You either accept it or you don't.

Also, I also have this idea that the dash button would also work in the air, and that you can also triangle dash (think MVC) downwards and you can still slide.

Again, the cancelled Air Dash Online that was inspired by Melee aimed to do this.
 
Last edited:

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
Well, that's the nature of a change.

You either accept it or you don't.

Also, I also have this idea that the dash button would also work in the air, and that you can also triangle dash (think MVC) downwards and you can still slide.

Again, the cancelled Air Dash Online that was inspired by Melee aimed to do this.
Not "acceptance", just must be better.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
Not "acceptance", just must be better.
I think of it like the switch from parrying in SF3 to Focus Attack in SF4.

Parrying is harder, but far more versatile in SF3 because it requires precise timing but you can do what ever you want afterwards. Focus Attacking in SF4 is much easier to grasp but much less versatile since the purpose of the move is to give yourself one-hit super armor then counterattack.

The people who complain that Focus Attacking is dumbed down from parrying are as noticeable as people who complain that recent 3D Mario games are too linear (trust me, I'm one of the latter).
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
What if it's tied to how long you hold down the dash button? Then it would be kinda like jumping in Mario games (jumping in Smash games only gives you short hop and max jump).
You'd have less control over the distance with that method compared to using the control stick angle, as the game can only interpret buttons being held down to a minimum of 1 frame precision (as opposed to the hundreds of possible control stick angles which wavedashing uses).

What advantage would your proposal have over wavedashing? What would you suggest happen to airdodges if your proposal were to be introduced?
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
You'd have less control over the distance with that method compared to using the control stick angle, as the game can only interpret buttons being held down to a minimum of 1 frame precision (as opposed to the hundreds of possible control stick angles which wavedashing uses).

What advantage would your proposal have over wavedashing? What would you suggest happen to airdodges if your proposal were to be introduced?
Airdodges could either be Melee or Brawl style. It wouldn't really matter.

Besides, would the loss of some control be too big of a deal? Again, how many people think Parrying in SF3 is better than Focus Attacking in SF4 despite the latter trading versatility for ease of use?
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
It's because it's tied to an action that by intentional design has a completely different purpose: air dodging. People seem to want to assume that I just suck at wavedashing, but the truth is, I've made a lot of progress practicing it and really enjoy doing it. Wavedashing is just a beautiful accident born out of the decision to not make it so that you can't "slide" by airdodging into the ground.

But if you're still going to accuse me of sucking anyway:

Still, I want a quick nearly non-committal movement option that is completely independent of airdodging or anything else. I suggested having a "dash button" that works similarly to Melee's air dodge without the "dodge" part and the helplessness at the end.

And now I'm tempted to unwatch this thread because from prior experience, saying my thoughts on simplifying wavedashing has done nothing but start a pissing contest.
Sucking at it is irrelevant. I honestly think you don't fully understand it.

Wavedashing is a three input, analog maneuver. Wavelanding is a two input, analog maneuver. However, they both utilize the same logic: 1. you need to be airborne, 2. you transfer airdodge momentum into the ground 3. the closer your angle gets to horizontal the more distance/speed you'll get.

However, your gripe is that it "wasn't intended" and you believe that it would make more sense to have a dash button independent of other mechanics. You also believe that wavedashing is at odds with simple directional inputs and that a dash button would add more depth. More still, you believe wavedashing inherently disrupts game balance.

Well, I'll try and explain why your reasoning is wrong:

1. Wavedashing literally is a simple, directional input. You press a button and input a linear direction. Just because it isn't at a 90 degree angle doesn't make it non-directional. The fact you reasoned it is at odds with the type of input it actually is blows my mind, tbh.

2. Replacing wavedashing with a dash button cannot simultaneously be simpler and make up for lost depth. For starters, you'd reduce the number of inputs by 1 (at most). But more importantly is that you'd then lose the ability to control your length. Your suggestion was to make the input similar to SMB jumping where the amount of time you held the input determined the length. However, the fastest wavedashes in the game are 13 frames so you'd have to squeeze every length from directly wavedashing down (which is a great option in a lot of situations) to wavedashing at an almost perfectly horizontal angle. Needless to say, there is no way you'd replicate the same capabilities of regular wavedashing without demanding absurd precision from the player.

3. Wavedashing and wavelanding are now disjointed from one another and no longer apply the same logic. Even though you want a dash button on the ground you still want wavelanding to use a directional input. This fails to simplify the mechanic (same number of inputs), and furthermore, still allows the player to wavedash in the many situations. Now there is more for the player to learn and the mechanics would seem redundant in nature.

4. How is wavedashing inherently disruptive to balance but introducing the ability to air dash isn't? If Fox now had the ability to lunge at his opponent and shine them or Marth could close almost any ken combo, wouldn't that not be disruptive? You also keep going on about a non-committal option but wavedashing is VERY committal. You are changing position and are completely vulnerable for 13+ frames when doing so. If wavedashing was somehow less committal than it already is that would be even more disruptive to balance.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
Sucking at it is irrelevant. I honestly think you don't fully understand it.

Wavedashing is a three input, analog maneuver. Wavelanding is a two input, analog maneuver. However, they both utilize the same logic: 1. you need to be airborne, 2. you transfer airdodge momentum into the ground 3. the closer your angle gets to horizontal the more distance/speed you'll get.

However, your gripe is that it "wasn't intended" and you believe that it would make more sense to have a dash button independent of other mechanics. You also believe that wavedashing is at odds with simple directional inputs and that a dash button would add more depth. More still, you believe wavedashing inherently disrupts game balance.

Well, I'll try and explain why your reasoning is wrong:

1. Wavedashing literally is a simple, directional input. You press a button and input a linear direction. Just because it isn't at a 90 degree angle doesn't make it non-directional. The fact you reasoned it is at odds with the type of input it actually is blows my mind, tbh.

2. Replacing wavedashing with a dash button cannot simultaneously be simpler and make up for lost depth. For starters, you'd reduce the number of inputs by 1 (at most). But more importantly is that you'd then lose the ability to control your length. Your suggestion was to make the input similar to SMB jumping where the amount of time you held the input determined the length. However, the fastest wavedashes in the game are 13 frames so you'd have to squeeze every length from directly wavedashing down (which is a great option in a lot of situations) to wavedashing at an almost perfectly horizontal angle. Needless to say, there is no way you'd replicate the same capabilities of regular wavedashing without demanding absurd precision from the player.

3. Wavedashing and wavelanding are now disjointed from one another and no longer apply the same logic. Even though you want a dash button on the ground you still want wavelanding to use a directional input. This fails to simplify the mechanic (same number of inputs), and furthermore, still allows the player to wavedash in the many situations. Now there is more for the player to learn and the mechanics would seem redundant in nature.

4. How is wavedashing inherently disruptive to balance but introducing the ability to air dash isn't? If Fox now had the ability to lunge at his opponent and shine them or Marth could close almost any ken combo, wouldn't that not be disruptive? You also keep going on about a non-committal option but wavedashing is VERY committal. You are changing position and are completely vulnerable for 13+ frames when doing so. If wavedashing was somehow less committal than it already is that would be even more disruptive to balance.
Well maybe the loss of depth in the process of simplification is necessary. Maybe it will make a better game that unites both casual and competitive players better.

Maybe I don't want it to be a black/white issue. Maybe I want it to be close but not quite in the process of translation.

Maybe Street Fighter 4 doesn't deserve to have the competitive community it does just because it replaced the complex parrying option with the less versatile but easier focus attacking. Maybe Yoshinori Ono is just as terrible as Sakurai is.

*sigh*

I understand that it's easy to think of this in terms of black/white, but that's my biggest problem with the fanbase as a whole. That it's either like Melee or like Brawl and there's nothing else we can do.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
It's possible to have a competitive meta without it, but the increased movement options it provides are part of the reason melee is so exciting.

I personally think the loss of L-cancelling is a bigger deal than the loss of wavedashing, but that's an entire other can of worms.
Out of curiosity, do you explicitly dislike loss of L-cancelling, or loss of L-cancelling and no reduction of landing lag to compensate [as I tend to think that would functionally be L-cancelling and fix the problem]?

To the OP, no. I think that an implementation of airdodging akin to Brawl Minus Fox [you can airdodge directionally and become helpless or airdodge without direction and still be actionable - mixing Brawl and Melee commands] or remapping to an airdash button of sorts [perhaps the other trigger] that would act as the button to wavedash [i.e. an alternative airdodge] could be interesting/cool, but I think the ways that juggling becomes more difficult add a depth of their own to the game, that Melee's juggle game doesn't quite match [especially with the new landing lag on air dodges in Smash 4].

I also like that it give people a reason to actually use the options they have [running, walking, etc.], since in Melee with DD and wavedashing, walking was basically useless [which still strikes me as just silly].
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
Out of curiosity, do you explicitly dislike loss of L-cancelling, or loss of L-cancelling and no reduction of landing lag to compensate [as I tend to think that would functionally be L-cancelling and fix the problem]?
Combo margins were already razor thin in melee to begin with, so the reduction in landing lag is part of it. No L-cancelling slows the game down and makes a lot of slower characters less viable (look at how bad Gannondorf was in brawl, for example).

Despite L-cancelling being a universally better option than not L-cancelling, I also think the lack of it as a technical filter really damages the depths of the meta. There are entire pro matches decided by missed L-cancels and it creates a large ability divide between beginners and experienced players. This may be considered bad, but even if it adds arbitrary input requirements to the game, it still greatly increases the depth.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Well maybe the loss of depth in the process of simplification is necessary. Maybe it will make a better game that unites both casual and competitive players better.

Maybe I don't want it to be a black/white issue. Maybe I want it to be close but not quite in the process of translation.

Maybe Street Fighter 4 doesn't deserve to have the competitive community it does just because it replaced the complex parrying option with the less versatile but easier focus attacking. Maybe Yoshinori Ono is just as terrible as Sakurai is.

*sigh*

I understand that it's easy to think of this in terms of black/white, but that's my biggest problem with the fanbase as a whole. That it's either like Melee or like Brawl and there's nothing else we can do.
No one said anything about making this a black and white issue. Suggesting that Melee's relationship with Brawl is equivalent to the one between Third Strike and SF4 is completely fallacious. If the ulterior motive here is to suggest that casual and competitive players need to be "united" then you are simply trying to solve an unfounded issue. Competitive and casual players only need to coexist and respect each other's enjoyment of the game. Games like Melee and Halo 2/Halo 3 have incredible duality in their competitive/casual reach and the compromises some of their successors made have only served to hurt their competitive scenes in the long run.

If you think Melee needs more competitive interest, then I doubt wavedashing (or L-cancelling for that matter) are the issue since the community has never been bigger. Wavedashing is honestly much harder in application than in input. If the prospect of executing a wavedash consistently turned players away then it is likely something else would have turned them away eventually. Its also just as likely that for every player the input supposedly turned away there could have been someone who found the challenge enthralling. If any "gray" aspects are being neglected, its this one.
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
Well maybe the loss of depth in the process of simplification is necessary. Maybe it will make a better game that unites both casual and competitive players better.

Maybe I don't want it to be a black/white issue. Maybe I want it to be close but not quite in the process of translation.
Besides, would the loss of some control be too big of a deal? Again, how many people think Parrying in SF3 is better than Focus Attacking in SF4 despite the latter trading versatility for ease of use?
The fact that it removes a single button press in some scenarios where wavedashing would otherwise be used is not worth the detrimental effects to depth and balance, alongside other complications. These include the unintuitive prospect of wavelanding still existing alongside the airdash and the sacrifice of a button for the airdash input (probably a jump button).

The idea of wavedashing might not be intuitive in the sense that players will immediately know how to perform it, but once they're aware that airdodging into the ground conserves momentum, the logic is very clear.

Airdodges could either be Melee or Brawl style. It wouldn't really matter.
Assuming a directional airdodge (like Melee):
If it still conserved momentum when you land (making wavelanding possible), then wavedashing would have to be possible unless you want to arbitrarily make airdodging impossible for a certain amount of time after a jump, which is terrible and unintuitive game design towards a questionable goal. The existence of airdashing alongside wavedashing/wavelanding would be confusing and somewhat redundant, and you'd have to lose out on control options in order to make it possible

If it didn't conserve momentum, then you would still be able to perform an advanced technique with the wavedash input, it would just always halt all of your momentum (effectively allowing only wavedashing in place regardless of the control stick angle). It would also remove wavelanding from the ledge, which reduces ledge options; I reason this would encourage ledge stalling when forced to the ledge due to less safe ways to leave it (indirectly changing game balance; any character that relies on recovering to the ledge suddenly gets worse).

Either way it would only serve to make the game more complex, because your technique would simply be added alongside alongside wavedashing (in some form); you can't remove it while keeping a directional airdodge.

Assuming a non-directional airodge:
It would be situational to the point of near-uselessness if it put you into SpecialFall after using it (like it does in Melee). If it didn't then it would make comboing and edgeguarding dramatically harder. You could argue that the game would be better this way, but it would be fundamentally very different to Melee just because of this (again, not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a matter of opinion whether the game would be "better" if it was like that).
 
Last edited:

Hornager

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
10
Wavedashing is the reason that I started to practice Melee. The other games do not compare in terms of fun for me. Before I get flamed for being a melee fanboy, this is my own personal opinion, and I just started Smash. I agree with the removal of it though. As a meant-for casual game, the removal of wavedashing was a good decision, making the game much more accessible, and more enjoyable to a point.
 

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
Combo margins were already razor thin in melee to begin with, so the reduction in landing lag is part of it. No L-cancelling slows the game down and makes a lot of slower characters less viable (look at how bad Gannondorf was in brawl, for example).

Despite L-cancelling being a universally better option than not L-cancelling, I also think the lack of it as a technical filter really damages the depths of the meta. There are entire pro matches decided by missed L-cancels and it creates a large ability divide between beginners and experienced players. This may be considered bad, but even if it adds arbitrary input requirements to the game, it still greatly increases the depth.
I totally agree with this. I think people generally underestimate the openings a missed L-cancel makes at top level. Especially when trying to pressure someones shield. It makes pressuring shields risk that much more for top players who are very good at preforming late and well spaced aerials. Miss an L-cancel and a situation where u were comboing/pressuring an opponent turns into an opportunity for u to get punished. Its about as arbitrary as deciding what the landing lag for some moves should be in the first place, so u may as well let the player control whether it is good or bad.
 

ElCancell

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
15
Wavedashing is also the reason I got into melee competitively and I've been really disappointed that it hasn't been included in any installments after Melee. I'm not a big fan of catering to the casual and I feel like that has been the downfall of a lot of my favorite games. (UO, WoW, many others).
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,642
So what if an airdash allowed you to airdash into the ground and slide?

...which would mean that wavedashing... would... essentially return...

...well, I sure backed myself into a corner.

But really, I've been thinking about what I don't like about wavedashing (instead of disliking the thing as a whole), and I guess it's that I only want certain functions of wavedashing to be simplified (specifically a quick burst of movement that allows you to act out of quickly).
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
Combo margins were already razor thin in melee to begin with, so the reduction in landing lag is part of it. No L-cancelling slows the game down and makes a lot of slower characters less viable (look at how bad Gannondorf was in brawl, for example).

Despite L-cancelling being a universally better option than not L-cancelling, I also think the lack of it as a technical filter really damages the depths of the meta. There are entire pro matches decided by missed L-cancels and it creates a large ability divide between beginners and experienced players. This may be considered bad, but even if it adds arbitrary input requirements to the game, it still greatly increases the depth.
Arbitrary inputs =/= depth.

Depth is not the ability to separate players by arbitrary divides. It's the ability to separate player skill based on how they play the game - decision-making and increasing options is what adds depth. There is no decision-making involved in making someone L-cancel [it's something you should be doing literally every time, and if executed correctly, there is no penalty even if an aerial is autocancelled or ledge-cancelled since the L-cancel buffer won't lead to a shield or airdodge if done properly]. It increases combo options in the sense that you can move faster, but you could also simply halve all landing lag, remove the input, and the effect would be the same.

Or are you telling me Melee would have more depth if Falco had to L-cancel lasers and Falcon had to L-cancel his recovery to avoid almost 70 frames of lag as opposed to the current ~34? If you say yes, then we simply must agree to disagree, because I've hashed out this argument with others many times and I firmly believe that being able to double-tap shield triggers with good timing is not a display of skill or one that shows you should beat someone who can actually make better reads than you but is not as competent at hitting L and R with good timing [quite the opposite in fact].
 
Last edited:

Roko Jono

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
177
Wavedashing is fun. I like it because its fun. I want to do it in every game because I think its fun.

I mean, if you wanted wavedashing in its simplest form, why create buttons for it? Just let anyone do anything out of a dash. You can already do anything out of walk, it could be the same. How to dash attack with this? I dunno someone will figure something out... going back to neutral or a+b or whatever...

Anyways, that gets rid of wavelanding though, and I think wavelanding is MORE fun, but also has a lot more uses. Most of the time I use it to alter my character height quickly via platforms or get around the stage without using the bottom ground (many reasons to do this).

To me, the wavedash(land) is sort of THE dash of smash brothers. Without it, everyone's just walking (sometimes very fast) not saying it makes the game boring though (64 is fun even without WD). Similar to maybe the movement options in Tekken, if you hold forward or backwards, you like... crawl which is kinda meh.

Let's face it though, not a lot of techniques in fighting games are physically intuitive, but many are simple and nearly everyone can use em plus if you're attempting to get decent at a game then why the hell wouldn't you use the internet nowadays.
 
Last edited:

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
Arbitrary inputs =/= depth.

Depth is not the ability to separate players by arbitrary divides. It's the ability to separate player skill based on how they play the game - decision-making and increasing options is what adds depth. There is no decision-making involved in making someone L-cancel [it's something you should be doing literally every time, and if executed correctly, there is no penalty even if an aerial is autocancelled or ledge-cancelled since the L-cancel buffer won't lead to a shield or airdodge if done properly]. It increases combo options in the sense that you can move faster, but you could also simply halve all landing lag, remove the input, and the effect would be the same.

Or are you telling me Melee would have more depth if Falco had to L-cancel lasers and Falcon had to L-cancel his recovery to avoid almost 70 frames of lag as opposed to the current ~34? If you say yes, then we simply must agree to disagree, because I've hashed out this argument with others many times and I firmly believe that being able to double-tap shield triggers with good timing is not a display of skill or one that shows you should beat someone who can actually make better reads than you but is not as competent at hitting L and R with good timing [quite the opposite in fact].
I kinda think the depth comes from recognizing a missed l-cancel and punishing ur opponent for it, especially in a situation where ur shield is being pressured. Its always best to l-cancel, but having the awareness to punish in situations where a missed l-cancel is possible/likely (such as when ur opponent does an aerial on ur shield) adds some depth in my opinion.

Also, I-canceling is a skill in the way that it challenges a player's dexterity. I cant support ur argument that simply because the other player gets better reads he should be better. Its kinda like saying that a baseball player that can recognize a pitchers pitches better should be a better hitter. Or a hockey player that alway's knows where to position himself to should be good. Mental ability is part of all sports, and so is physical execution. Esports are sports because execution matters. Chess isn't a sport because its only a competition of strategy.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Arbitrary inputs =/= depth.

Depth is not the ability to separate players by arbitrary divides. It's the ability to separate player skill based on how they play the game - decision-making and increasing options is what adds depth. There is no decision-making involved in making someone L-cancel [it's something you should be doing literally every time, and if executed correctly, there is no penalty even if an aerial is autocancelled or ledge-cancelled since the L-cancel buffer won't lead to a shield or airdodge if done properly]. It increases combo options in the sense that you can move faster, but you could also simply halve all landing lag, remove the input, and the effect would be the same.

Or are you telling me Melee would have more depth if Falco had to L-cancel lasers and Falcon had to L-cancel his recovery to avoid almost 70 frames of lag as opposed to the current ~34? If you say yes, then we simply must agree to disagree, because I've hashed out this argument with others many times and I firmly believe that being able to double-tap shield triggers with good timing is not a display of skill or one that shows you should beat someone who can actually make better reads than you but is not as competent at hitting L and R with good timing [quite the opposite in fact].
And yet another instance of someone criticizing L-cancelling for lacking qualities it never meant to fulfill. I suppose we should criticize the fact you have to correctly press A and a direction on the control stick to perform an attack, or that we have to let go of the jump button within x amount of frames to short hop.

Honestly, the failure of your argument lies within two regards:

1. Depth is not limited to strategy and decision making. Technical depth has merits and contributes to overall depth. The technicality of an instrument such as a guitar or piano can enhance the meaning/creativity of music.

2. The technical depth L-Cancelling adds does not overpower mental strategy. While it seems arbitrary, its binary nature is rather complimentary in a game full of abstract concepts and exceptions. It is actually a great introductory technique since it gives newcomers immediate feedback with their progress.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
I kinda think the depth comes from recognizing a missed l-cancel and punishing ur opponent for it, especially in a situation where ur shield is being pressured. Its always best to l-cancel, but having the awareness to punish in situations where a missed l-cancel is possible/likely (such as when ur opponent does an aerial on ur shield) adds some depth in my opinion.

Also, I-canceling is a skill in the way that it challenges a player's dexterity. I cant support ur argument that simply because the other player gets better reads he should be better. Its kinda like saying that a baseball player that can recognize a pitchers pitches better should be a better hitter. Or a hockey player that alway's knows where to position himself to should be good. Mental ability is part of all sports, and so is physical execution. Esports are sports because execution matters. Chess isn't a sport because its only a competition of strategy.
A baseball player who knows where the pitches are going will be a better player if they apply themselves to the game. That means learning to swing that bat and aim for the ball. That's why people learn to use attacks, space, recover, etc. But L-cancelling would be equivalent in your analogy to making a batter give a thumbs up after every pitch to reduce the time it takes the catcher to throw the ball back - it's totally unnecessary and could be avoided through better design [just have the man throw the ball back instead of lagging if you don't thumbs up in an acceptable way].

You can also "double tap" L-cancels to avoid missing L-cancels literally ever - Kadano made a video on it [I'm sure he disagrees with my position on being in versus removing itl, but he provides the frame data to support this and recommends use of this method]. Optimum L-cancelling involves a double buffer [tap L and then R lightly, or vice versa, in a certain window] and precludes missing any and all L-cancels (even Ganondorf's stomp on something vs on nothing). Thus at the top level, if we all had all day to practice, there would be no missed L-cancels ever. It's simply a barrier to separate those who have time to practice properly mashing shield triggers when they land vs those who don't, which is dumb, when so many people are just so bad at the mental aspects of the game or certain MUs, which definitely need practicing, and such practice is going to lead to more interesting and better quality matches much faster than miring someone down with trying to hit triggers [you can go to a tournament and look at skill gaps - PPMD destroyed M2K at Apex 2014, who if I remember correctly bodied Leffen, who got beaten by Mango [who lost to M2K], and all of those people could destroy numerous people below them, who could in turn destroy people below them, who could destroy countless other players out there, and the chain extends well beyond that]. Separation of skill level by ability to double buffer or correctly time an input that could be completely obviated is ridiculous.

And yet another instance of someone criticizing L-cancelling for lacking qualities it never meant to fulfill. I suppose we should criticize the fact you have to correctly press A and a direction on the control stick to perform an attack, or that we have to let go of the jump button within x amount of frames to short hop.

Honestly, the failure of your argument lies within two regards:

1. Depth is not limited to strategy and decision making. Technical depth has merits and contributes to overall depth. The technicality of an instrument such as a guitar or piano can enhance the meaning/creativity of music.

2. The technical depth L-Cancelling adds does not overpower mental strategy. While it seems arbitrary, its binary nature is rather complimentary in a game full of abstract concepts and exceptions. It is actually a great introductory technique since it gives newcomers immediate feedback with their progress.
Technical depth only has merit in as much as it is a requisite to a different action. Angling attacks adds depth. Smashes vs tilts vs neutral moves adds depths as well because it allows for more inputs on a limited set of commands [and it's integrated efficiently in my opinion, and I'd find aerial smash attacks an interesting but welcome edition to any potential Smash 5 (since Smash 4 has already come out)]. DACUS adds depth because it allows characters new options [Ganondorf's DACUS in PM is terrifying, and yes I'm aware we're in a Melee forum but the argument holds]. Wavedashing adds depth because it allows new options as well, out of dash, out of shield, etc. So does b-reversing, shielddropping and spotdodging, jump-cancelling [it matters because not all JC grabs are better, and a slow JC grab is always slower on startup anyway, therefore it is a decision], and other actions. L-cancelling is not a prerequisite to a different action, it's an arbitrary input, and therefore could be obviated easily without loss of the impressive skill on display in a wide variety of other forms. Technicality in music can also sound terrible, but people in music don't obsess over technicality, they are consumed with the desire tor beauty. I'd much rather see high-level players make masterful reads, complimented with good technical skill in the areas that open up options [wavedashing, jump-cancelling, etc.] than see players who think they're good because they can multshine but walk into the same stupid things the other does over and over again, but that's what happens at low levels to players who focus on technical skill - it's a diversion and distraction from what's ultimately going to affect how far they can progress as a player [and if you need an example of this, look to good ol' Borp - very little technical prowess, but he can keep reasonably close to Toph and beat various other players who can do flashy things because he chose to be good at playing Smash instead of choosing to be good at pushing buttons fast with various usually strict timings].

Funny enough, I tend to have L-cancel rates no higher than the mid-80s in tournaments [often the 70s], but I beat people who have L-cancel rates at 100% and punish my whiffed L-cancels. At best, L-cancelling leveled the playing field a bit, but it's more likely that they've spent significantly more time getting good at practicing hitting the L-cancels while I've spent time honing my style, working on reads, and making sure I hit at least a few L-cancels on important aerials [as Link in PM, mainly dair], to the point where I can outplay them at Smash, even if they outplay me at Super press buttons bros. Also, the human reaction time on average is about 16 frames or so [I think it's like .28 seconds or something], so unless you're expecting a whiff [and against a good opponent, you shouldn't], punishing a whiffed L-cancel on reaction is basically impossible anyway.

Given that bit about human reaction time, at the top level, players pay enough respect to each other that whiffed L-cancels are harder to punish simply because you expect the opponent to hit their L-cancels and punish around it - that, combined with the L-cancel rates that are probably at, or very near, 100% [at least in a game by game basis, obviously not lifetime], means that L-cancelling doesn't add depth to the game, since people are going through an input that could be obviated without changing the outcome on screen and won't be looking for whiffed L-cancels, but rather for openings in technically proper [but not necessarily smart] pressure/zoning/whatever.

I’m also sure that people will still take issue with this, either from an “agree to disagree” standpoint (as in, "I don't want to argue and I'm not changing my mind") or [more likely] a “this is wrong” standpoint, but all these issues seem to start with people over-simplifying what I say or attempting to compare it to something with a flawed example. So I’m sure this won’t be the last of it [though we really shouldn’t turn another thread into one of these discussions] but I’m also fully prepared to continue to defend this position.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Technical depth only has merit in as much as it is a requisite to a different action. Angling attacks adds depth. Smashes vs tilts vs neutral moves adds depths as well because it allows for more inputs on a limited set of commands [and it's integrated efficiently in my opinion, and I'd find aerial smash attacks an interesting but welcome edition to any potential Smash 5 (since Smash 4 has already come out)]. DACUS adds depth because it allows characters new options [Ganondorf's DACUS in PM is terrifying, and yes I'm aware we're in a Melee forum but the argument holds]. Wavedashing adds depth because it allows new options as well, out of dash, out of shield, etc. So does b-reversing, shielddropping and spotdodging, jump-cancelling [it matters because not all JC grabs are better, and a slow JC grab is always slower on startup anyway, therefore it is a decision], and other actions. L-cancelling is not a prerequisite to a different action, it's an arbitrary input, and therefore could be obviated easily without loss of the impressive skill on display in a wide variety of other forms. Technicality in music can also sound terrible, but people in music don't obsess over technicality, they are consumed with the desire tor beauty. I'd much rather see high-level players make masterful reads, complimented with good technical skill in the areas that open up options [wavedashing, jump-cancelling, etc.] than see players who think they're good because they can multshine but walk into the same stupid things the other does over and over again, but that's what happens at low levels to players who focus on technical skill - it's a diversion and distraction from what's ultimately going to affect how far they can progress as a player [and if you need an example of this, look to good ol' Borp - very little technical prowess, but he can keep reasonably close to Toph and beat various other players who can do flashy things because he chose to be good at playing Smash instead of choosing to be good at pushing buttons fast with various usually strict timings].
But the idea that you're missing here is that Melee allows Borp and Toph to coexist. People are able to advance themselves however they like and that is why technical depth has merit. Believe it or not, L-Cancelling and "multishining" has appeal to certain individuals.

And you can't honestly imply that all musicians solely desire "beauty" unless the descriptor is being used vague beyond meaning. There are musicians who choose to replicate complex music and there are musicians who choose to create and express themselves. Someone performing the national anthem would be lauded with their impressive feats in range whereas Bob Dylan and his raspy as **** voice would be lauded for his lyricism.

Funny enough, I tend to have L-cancel rates no higher than the mid-80s in tournaments [often the 70s], but I beat people who have L-cancel rates at 100% and punish my whiffed L-cancels. At best, L-cancelling leveled the playing field a bit, but it's more likely that they've spent significantly more time getting good at practicing hitting the L-cancels while I've spent time honing my style, working on reads, and making sure I hit at least a few L-cancels on important aerials [as Link in PM, mainly dair], to the point where I can outplay them at Smash, even if they outplay me at Super press buttons bros. Also, the human reaction time on average is about 16 frames or so [I think it's like .28 seconds or something], so unless you're expecting a whiff [and against a good opponent, you shouldn't], punishing a whiffed L-cancel on reaction is basically impossible anyway.

Given that bit about human reaction time, at the top level, players pay enough respect to each other that whiffed L-cancels are harder to punish simply because you expect the opponent to hit their L-cancels and punish around it - that, combined with the L-cancel rates that are probably at, or very near, 100% [at least in a game by game basis, obviously not lifetime], means that L-cancelling doesn't add depth to the game, since people are going through an input that could be obviated without changing the outcome on screen and won't be looking for whiffed L-cancels, but rather for openings in technically proper [but not necessarily smart] pressure/zoning/whatever.
And your anecdotal evidence says what, exactly? That being good at the game and L-Cancelling most of the time is better than being bad at the game and L-Cancelling all of the time...? Well no arguments here on that front. Doesn't change the fact that L-Cancelling could contribute to interest and motivation to newer players.

You brought up the reaction time thing last time and I'll reply to it just the same: you can't honestly think anyone top/high or even mid level wouldn't punish a missed L-Cancel lol. Reaction time is far more complex than the 10-16 frame range its portrayed as and there are other factors at play (i.e. hitlag, situational awareness from both parties, responsive preparation, spacing, etc.)

I’m also sure that people will still take issue with this, either from an “agree to disagree” standpoint (as in, "I don't want to argue and I'm not changing my mind") or [more likely] a “this is wrong” standpoint, but all these issues seem to start with people over-simplifying what I say or attempting to compare it to something with a flawed example. So I’m sure this won’t be the last of it [though we really shouldn’t turn another thread into one of these discussions] but I’m also fully prepared to continue to defend this position.
You didn't even respond the last time you engaged me on this topic lol.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
But the idea that you're missing here is that Melee allows Borp and Toph to coexist. People are able to advance themselves however they like and that is why technical depth has merit. Believe it or not, L-Cancelling and "multishining" has appeal to certain individuals.

And you can't honestly imply that all musicians solely desire "beauty" unless the descriptor is being used vague beyond meaning. There are musicians who choose to replicate complex music and there are musicians who choose to create and express themselves. Someone performing the national anthem would be lauded with their impressive feats in range whereas Bob Dylan and his raspy as **** voice would be lauded for his lyricism.

And your anecdotal evidence says what, exactly? That being good at the game and L-Cancelling most of the time is better than being bad at the game and L-Cancelling all of the time...? Well no arguments here on that front. Doesn't change the fact that L-Cancelling could contribute to interest and motivation to newer players.

You brought up the reaction time thing last time and I'll reply to it just the same: you can't honestly think anyone top/high or even mid level wouldn't punish a missed L-Cancel lol. Reaction time is far more complex than the 10-16 frame range its portrayed as and there are other factors at play (i.e. hitlag, situational awareness from both parties, responsive preparation, spacing, etc.)

You didn't even respond the last time you engaged me on this topic lol.
I'm pretty sure I had made some statement to the effect of, "I'm done here for X reasons" or else I somehow missed the notification. My internet keeps eating my attempts to post, so it's also possible I tried to post, thought I did, but really didn't [that's happened more than once to me <_<]. I also have a ton of homework so I probably can't properly respond to this right now as much as I'd like but here goes.

Borp and Toph can coexist in a game where you don't have to press all those buttons too. Multishining is an advanced technique independent from L-cancelling - my criticism was directed mainly at people who assume such technical skill automatically makes them good. I also think focus on technical skill causes detraction from focusing on skills that will improve players, and I think L-cancelling contributes to this mindset [and I see that mindset as a net negative]. As part of my point, I'm pretty much positive PPMD and Mango do not [cannot?] multishine, yet they can handle Hax who multishines [or used to before hand issues] like it's his job to JC down+B over and over [and countless other players who can multishine]. Toph wouldn't be a worse player if L-cancelling didn't exist, but Borp would probably be better, yet only slightly [since he still would not wavedash, JC, etc.]. I think that's a good thing, because the motion itself doesn't enhance options, its existence is necessarily a restriction, which is not the case for any other technical option in the game. I think that is problematic.

Musicians seek different forms of beauty, but music is a single-player event [so to speak], in that if you master just execution, you have done your task for an instrument, whereas in Melee, you can't always make the same reads [play the same notes], so I find your analogy lacking in the first place. And yes in music you can maybe have slightly different execution in how you play the notes [various musical terms about holding notes longer or shorter, pausing, slight changes in how you use your voice, etc.], but there's no requirement to adapt what you want to do to someone else, because you can always refuse to perform for a certain group - that's not the case in Melee. In any case, I think that we laud and reward tournament players for one thing in Smash - winning [we do that via cash awards and sponsorships and the like]. We make combo videos and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure if you ask the players most serious about Smash [Mew2King, PPMD, Armada, Hbox, I'd guess even Mango] if they would rather be featured in all kinds of combo videos for doing cool unorthodox things or be featured in interviews after tournaments for taking 1st at nationals, they'd quickly state the latter [Mango may think styling > winning, given that he seems to play as if style will win things]. That's why I made the claim that musicians are concerned with beauty - I was trying to work within the analogy, but I had yet to put my finger on why I simply felt the analogy was off [until now]. (This is also why if you watch Triple R vs Bizzaro Flame, Bizzaro doesn't actually try anything that stylish, and even does a decent bit of platform camping - he knows winning is more important than looking cool in a match he's supposed to win. He tries to look cool when he thinks he can get away with it, but at the end of the Bizz knows winning is THE primary consideration and the ultimate goal.)

I know a fair number of players who are distinctly turned off by L-cancelling and refuse to play Melee because of it - runs both ways, as it may invite some in but it definitely kicks some out. Wavedashing accomplishes the same task, but players can opt to play certain characters who rely less on wavedashing to still be reasonably good without it [Jigglypuff is the prime example]. Such a counterpart only barely exists in Sheik [who still lacks a somewhat safe option for landing when the opponent is behind Sheik, and thus will frustrate those who attempt this without severe dedication to not being technical].

Hitlag messes up timing for both parties, but that just as likely makes an L-cancelled whiffed as it does mess up an OoS punish [and with Kadano's method, you can avoid the risk of a whiffed L-cancel, but not one of a punish]. Situational awareness comes into play with four characters in the game - Ice Climbers and Sheik [YL and Link very rarely, but I don't think most people care]. Otherwise, there is only the case of hitting shield vs not [or player vs not], and again, this is overcome with optimum inputs which means the barrier is an artificial method to make those who can't practice pushing buttons quickly for hours on end at an arbitrary disadvantage.

I think L-cancelling is just as silly as stating we should double the landing lag on all specials and then add a cancel for that as well - sure, it makes the game harder, increases situational awareness, etc., but those things are unnecessary with how technical Melee is and how deep it is independent of L-canceling as is. Adding cancels and doubling lag wouldn't make the game deeper, it'd just make people have to push more buttons, and removing the one cancel that exists wouldn't do any harm to the game either.
 

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
A baseball player who knows where the pitches are going will be a better player if they apply themselves to the game. That means learning to swing that bat and aim for the ball. That's why people learn to use attacks, space, recover, etc. But L-cancelling would be equivalent in your analogy to making a batter give a thumbs up after every pitch to reduce the time it takes the catcher to throw the ball back - it's totally unnecessary and could be avoided through better design [just have the man throw the ball back instead of lagging if you don't thumbs up in an acceptable way].

You can also "double tap" L-cancels to avoid missing L-cancels literally ever - Kadano made a video on it [I'm sure he disagrees with my position on being in versus removing itl, but he provides the frame data to support this and recommends use of this method]. Optimum L-cancelling involves a double buffer [tap L and then R lightly, or vice versa, in a certain window] and precludes missing any and all L-cancels (even Ganondorf's stomp on something vs on nothing). Thus at the top level, if we all had all day to practice, there would be no missed L-cancels ever. It's simply a barrier to separate those who have time to practice properly mashing shield triggers when they land vs those who don't, which is dumb, when so many people are just so bad at the mental aspects of the game or certain MUs, which definitely need practicing, and such practice is going to lead to more interesting and better quality matches much faster than miring someone down with trying to hit triggers [you can go to a tournament and look at skill gaps - PPMD destroyed M2K at Apex 2014, who if I remember correctly bodied Leffen, who got beaten by Mango [who lost to M2K], and all of those people could destroy numerous people below them, who could in turn destroy people below them, who could destroy countless other players out there, and the chain extends well beyond that]. Separation of skill level by ability to double buffer or correctly time an input that could be completely obviated is ridiculous.
.
I think in the baseball analogy I was getting at the idea that a baseball player needs to have reflexes and physical ability to hit the ball and take advantage of his mental ability, not just practice swing technique. Not only does he need to practice his skills (in melee this would be spacing, dashdancing etc) but also must have the dexterity (in melee this would be shorthopping, L-canceling aerials, JC grabs and upsmashes). Really there is no reason for shorthopping to be difficult, or for the jump cancels to be a thing, but I do think its important that optimizing be difficult as this creates input mistakes and openings for others to counter attack. Bascally, ur physical ability has an effect on the game and that in my opinion is a show of skill. The thumbs up analogy implies that it takes no skill to preform the task.

Its true that Kadano found the optimum way to L-cancel, but truthfully it still takes skill to execute his method too. However, I agree with u that Kadano's method seems to circumvent the basic idea that part of L-canceling is getting the timing correct depending on whether u wiff an aerial, or hit someones shield/hurtbox. As I mentioned above I consider this part of melee's depth as it creates openings for a defending opponent to recognize and take advantage of. Kadano's method takes this out of play in theory.

If anything then I would advocate making l-canceling more difficult if given the chance, rather than simply removing it. I would make it more like teching, and have the opputunity to input an l-cancel exist only once (obviously I wouldn't want the window of time to be as large as a tech though).
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
I'm pretty sure I had made some statement to the effect of, "I'm done here for X reasons" or else I somehow missed the notification. My internet keeps eating my attempts to post, so it's also possible I tried to post, thought I did, but really didn't [that's happened more than once to me <_<]. I also have a ton of homework so I probably can't properly respond to this right now as much as I'd like but here goes.

Borp and Toph can coexist in a game where you don't have to press all those buttons too. Multishining is an advanced technique independent from L-cancelling - my criticism was directed mainly at people who assume such technical skill automatically makes them good. I also think focus on technical skill causes detraction from focusing on skills that will improve players, and I think L-cancelling contributes to this mindset [and I see that mindset as a net negative]. As part of my point, I'm pretty much positive PPMD and Mango do not [cannot?] multishine, yet they can handle Hax who multishines [or used to before hand issues] like it's his job to JC down+B over and over [and countless other players who can multishine]. Toph wouldn't be a worse player if L-cancelling didn't exist, but Borp would probably be better, yet only slightly [since he still would not wavedash, JC, etc.]. I think that's a good thing, because the motion itself doesn't enhance options, its existence is necessarily a restriction, which is not the case for any other technical option in the game. I think that is problematic.

Musicians seek different forms of beauty, but music is a single-player event [so to speak], in that if you master just execution, you have done your task for an instrument, whereas in Melee, you can't always make the same reads [play the same notes], so I find your analogy lacking in the first place. And yes in music you can maybe have slightly different execution in how you play the notes [various musical terms about holding notes longer or shorter, pausing, slight changes in how you use your voice, etc.], but there's no requirement to adapt what you want to do to someone else, because you can always refuse to perform for a certain group - that's not the case in Melee. In any case, I think that we laud and reward tournament players for one thing in Smash - winning [we do that via cash awards and sponsorships and the like]. We make combo videos and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure if you ask the players most serious about Smash [Mew2King, PPMD, Armada, Hbox, I'd guess even Mango] if they would rather be featured in all kinds of combo videos for doing cool unorthodox things or be featured in interviews after tournaments for taking 1st at nationals, they'd quickly state the latter [Mango may think styling > winning, given that he seems to play as if style will win things]. That's why I made the claim that musicians are concerned with beauty - I was trying to work within the analogy, but I had yet to put my finger on why I simply felt the analogy was off [until now]. (This is also why if you watch Triple R vs Bizzaro Flame, Bizzaro doesn't actually try anything that stylish, and even does a decent bit of platform camping - he knows winning is more important than looking cool in a match he's supposed to win. He tries to look cool when he thinks he can get away with it, but at the end of the Bizz knows winning is THE primary consideration and the ultimate goal.)

I know a fair number of players who are distinctly turned off by L-cancelling and refuse to play Melee because of it - runs both ways, as it may invite some in but it definitely kicks some out. Wavedashing accomplishes the same task, but players can opt to play certain characters who rely less on wavedashing to still be reasonably good without it [Jigglypuff is the prime example]. Such a counterpart only barely exists in Sheik [who still lacks a somewhat safe option for landing when the opponent is behind Sheik, and thus will frustrate those who attempt this without severe dedication to not being technical].

Hitlag messes up timing for both parties, but that just as likely makes an L-cancelled whiffed as it does mess up an OoS punish [and with Kadano's method, you can avoid the risk of a whiffed L-cancel, but not one of a punish]. Situational awareness comes into play with four characters in the game - Ice Climbers and Sheik [YL and Link very rarely, but I don't think most people care]. Otherwise, there is only the case of hitting shield vs not [or player vs not], and again, this is overcome with optimum inputs which means the barrier is an artificial method to make those who can't practice pushing buttons quickly for hours on end at an arbitrary disadvantage.

I think L-cancelling is just as silly as stating we should double the landing lag on all specials and then add a cancel for that as well - sure, it makes the game harder, increases situational awareness, etc., but those things are unnecessary with how technical Melee is and how deep it is independent of L-canceling as is. Adding cancels and doubling lag wouldn't make the game deeper, it'd just make people have to push more buttons, and removing the one cancel that exists wouldn't do any harm to the game either.
The issue with your stance is that you are viewing Melee, and even music, in absolutes. Even if you find L-cancelling "wasteful practice", you are failing to acknowledge that strategy and mental play isn't readily intuitive. For many of its members, Melee was their first fighting game. Concepts such as the neutral game, reacting to their opponent, and studying habits would be foreign to them. L-Cancelling is simply refining execution so the implications are readily apparent and the gratification is practically immediate. Furthermore, you can practice it by yourself (something Melee had severely lacked until recently). Its a great introductory technique to these players and you would be lying to yourself if you didn't know that "L-Cancelling" and "Wavedashing" didn't have a low level allure. When I started 4-5 years ago, it was videos like Shined Blind that got me into the game. I don't think Melee and P:M would be so popular if it was a meaningful inhibitor.

On the topic of music, I will keep this brief, but again, you aren't acknowledging exceptions and intricacies. Is music "single player" if you have to keep time with a band or orchestra? What about Jazz music? Prog famously compared it to Melee for possessing both structure and instances of improvisation. Again, stop trying to surmise an entire medium with a single pursuit it cannot be done.

In regards to the idea that winning is the "ultimate" goal, I would agree that this is the inherent nature games, but how you win cannot be understated. There is a reason why barely anybody ledge camps with puff, why matches involving Fox/Falco/Falcon get the most publicity, and why Mango is so much fun to watch. Melee's massive pool of options lends it to being a game of expression. There is a difference between being the absolute best and being the best you can be and the majority of players, such as Bizz, opt for the latter.

As for L-Canceling itself, I don't fully understand the wording of your argument. I was directly responding to the notion where you believed whiffed L-Cancels are impossible to react to (to which I responded this doesn't make sense logically and that there are multiple factors at play). However, now it appears the subject has changed to whether or not L-cancelling is purely artificial and has relevant impact on the game.

Well again, lets reason this logically. Do you honestly think there is no measurable difference between having to L-Cancel Fox's drill shine and the L-Cancel being automatic? What about shield pressure?

See, whats interesting about L-Cancelling is that its subsequent input. To execute an aerial close to the ground, you have to make correct inputs both at the beginning and at the end. So unless you've designed a robot to play smash brothers for you, your brain is now under constraints and your ability to react to new information is now inhibited.

This why I'm not a proponent of "optimum" L-cancelling because by increasing your number of inputs you'd be focusing more on what you HAVE to do and less on what you WILL do next. If L-Cancelling was automatic, this means that all the actions required to execute the aerial would be at the beginning. You wouldn't have to account for "I have to press L, R, or Z when this move hits or when I land". Instead, you would be immediately thinking "If this whiffs/hits shield, I'll run back, if it hits, I'll do a follow up"

If there was no L-Cancelling in Melee, whenever Fox naired you he wouldn't use the hitlag frames to L-Cancel. He would use the hitlag and short as **** landing lag to determine if he is just going to grab you or shine grab you.
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
Technical depth only has merit in as much as it is a requisite to a different action.
If L-cancelling was not an important requisite to adding options and playing well, nobody would do it.

Lets look at some other things similar in use and utility to L-cancelling. Most people agree that these have great merit to the game.
  • Shield dropping is a completely arbitrary, precisely timed input that is universally better than any other way to fall through a platform. You gain the option of performing any aerial action after a shield drop.
  • Power shielding is a very tightly timed technique that is both universally better than regular shielding and if possible should be done every time you shield. You gain the option of performing any action after a powershield, many times with frame advantage.
  • SDIing is universally better than regular DI and requires a precise, fast input. You should SDI every possible time you have the chance. You gain the option of escaping an attack or combo and possibly retaliating to it.
  • L-cancels are completely arbitrary, precisely timed inputs that are universally better than landing with an aerial out normally. You gain the option of comboing attacks that would not normally combo in addition to the ability to perform any action faster than you would without l-cancelling.
Melee has a reputation for being a very technical game. L-cancelling is a very low technical bar that is pretty easy to overcome for new players with practice. A very high technical ceiling is often supported by arbitrary or repetitive inputs.

It is very obvious that none of these are perfect mechanics, many of them emergent behaviors from gray areas in the physics engine, but saying they don't increase depth is silly. Increasing player options, increasing the complexity of inputs, and adding additional margins for error most certainly give a game depth and make it more technically demanding.

If you decide that you don't like the way we play the game that's totally your prerogative, you don't have to play melee competitively. We can't really change melee here, so arguing and complaining about what it is will do absolutely nothing about changing it, and everything about making people not like you.
 
Last edited:

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
If L-cancelling was not an important requisite to adding options and playing well, nobody would do it.

Lets look at some other things similar in use and utility to L-cancelling. Most people agree that these have great merit to the game.
  • Shield dropping is a completely arbitrary, precisely timed input that is universally better than any other way to fall through a platform. You gain the option of performing any aerial action after a shield drop.
  • Power shielding is a very tightly timed technique that is both universally better than regular shielding and if possible should be done every time you shield. You gain the option of performing any action after a powershield, many times with frame advantage.
  • SDIing is universally better than regular DI and requires a precise, fast input. You should SDI every possible time you have the chance. You gain the option of escaping an attack or combo and possibly retaliating to it.
  • L-cancels are completely arbitrary, precisely timed inputs that are universally better than landing with an aerial out normally. You gain the option of comboing attacks that would not normally combo in addition to the ability to perform any action faster than you would without l-cancelling.
Melee has a reputation for being a very technical game. L-cancelling is a very low technical bar that is pretty easy to overcome for new players with practice. A very high technical ceiling is often supported by arbitrary or repetitive inputs.

It is very obvious that none of these are perfect mechanics, many of them emergent behaviors from gray areas in the physics engine, but saying they don't increase depth is silly. Increasing player options, increasing the complexity of inputs, and adding additional margins for error most certainly give a game depth and make it more technically demanding.

If you decide that you don't like the way we play the game that's totally your prerogative, you don't have to play melee competitively. We can't really change melee here, so arguing and complaining about what it is will do absolutely nothing about changing it, and everything about making people not like you.
I don't think Thor is out of line with his thinking, or trying to suggest the game sucks with l-Canceling. Thought Id say this because discussing the merits of a game mechanic is different from attacking an entire game/community/person.

Lets just take the tone down a bit in this thread, I enjoy the topic of this discussion and hope it doesn't degrade into a flame war, or a "u think its too hard for people then don't play" argument. It shouldn't be either.
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
Lets just take the tone down a bit in this thread, I enjoy the topic of this discussion and hope it doesn't degrade into a flame war, or a "u think its too hard for people then don't play" argument. It shouldn't be either.
Agreed, flame wars suck. I also want to make it clear that I'm not trying to mean here, I'm just a "tough love" type of guy.
 

the muted smasher

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
409
Missing l cancels can be useful, like this fox that missed every bair l cancel ever cause he was bad at it and when I went to rest him oos because he went way to deep the lag had him duck to low for to long to get him. Also pika bair vs high grabs.

Not even counting ics non sense to try to make You miss the timing.

My answer to any wavedash debate is it was put in for board the platform from 64 but because of time issues they only made waveland/wavedash but no btp. : (
 

ObdurateMARio

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
113
Location
Central FL
Wavedashes are super crazy awesome. It allows for a level of control over your character that is unparalleled in any other Smash game. It allows for perfect spacing, momentum switches, faster, harder punishes. There is literally no element to Melee that isn't enhanced by wavedashing in some way. It, or a similar mechanic, should be present in all smash titles in the future, although ofc there won't be.
 
Top Bottom