Is it time for me to learn a secondary?

[CanadianBakn]

Hey guys.

I'm a Marth player from Winnipeg, and I have had repeated trouble in the Sheik matchup, and lesser-so but also some difficulty against Puffs. It's not from lack of practice, I play the matchup a lot, try to stick to dtilt and grab in neutral, try to uthrow into a punish, get Sheik off stage then cover the up+b to ledge and punish her laggy recovery. Pretty much textbook, I still just find it incredibly difficult and lose games/sets against players that get 2/3 stocked by space animals that I play evenly against. It's very frustrating.

Learning a Fox secondary is a very attractive option as Fox is excellent at both of these matchups.

The question is - when? Drastic Improvement suggests picking one character and sticking with it. This has been my attitude so far. I want to know if I'm good enough yet that getting a pocket Fox is worth my time or if I'm better off investing more into Marth.

For reference, I am at the point with Marth where I can l-cancel, wavedash, dash dance, etc and incorporate them all in my game. I am starting to waveland more often. I can chainthrow spacies and know the knockback of all of my moves well and know bread and butter combos. I'm right around the point where you start to learn really good OOS options (wd OOS, dair OOS), and get your fundamentals more crisp.

Thoughts?

 

[Red Rice]

It's always worth considering picking up Fox. It really does help in MUs where Marth just can't handle them as well as spacies. Sheik, like you said, is super hard for Marth. Jiggs, IMO, is a little more doable depending on how good the puff is. Know your grab punishes like grab > WD tipper fsmash etc on puff. On sheik, you want to stay under her

Try playing Fox in friendlies first and get a feel for him. It's worth it for everyone to have a pocket Fox, I think.

 

[1MachGO]

Developing a "pocket fox" is honestly the biggest waste of time for someone at your level. The skill floor for getting him tournament ready plus whatever additional time you need to put into him will ultimately detract from time spent towards developing your main and learning the MUs you are struggling with. Struggle is the best circumstance for a new player because it forces you adapt and improve mentally. If you are constantly switching for certain MUs then you are really just trying to muscle your way through the game with auto-pilots.

This isn't to say I don't encourage playing Fox/any other character in a friendly setting, but I wouldn't invest too much time into any secondary just yet. If you look at tournaments, its really only the top and high level players that utilize secondaries, and even then, it usually takes years before they resort to using them. Shroomed and Hax having been placing high at tournaments for ages with characters who are unanimously agreed to be inferior to Marth and have only recently switched/picked up secondaries. Don't lose faith in your character just yet.

On another note, the concept of picking up Fox to beat Sheik has always perplexed me. Falco has the same advantages in the MU in addition to being easier to play and Sheik (for dittos) would probably be an even simpler (albeit, more disrespectful) option.

Also, Marth beats Puff.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

As usual, pick your goals, then let that help you decide. If all you care about is beating the people near you, then as a short term solution picking up another character can help. Sheik/Marth is easily doable if you are just a better player. At the current time it seems like you probably making enough mistakes its hard to overcome any character differences. From my point of view it is always more satisfactory to overcome challenges and I would prefer to beat Sheik head on with the sword guy.

 

[Lights]

brb dropping my 2ndary falco and going all and only sheik until you drop marth for a space animal.

 

[CanadianBakn]

brb dropping my 2ndary falco and going all and only sheik until you drop marth for a space animal.

I like Marth. He has a big sword,

 

[Sync8699]

Jiggs also seems to be a good option as a secondary for Marths. She covers his poor MUs pretty well and is different enough than Marth that if your opponent is just good against Marth, there's a decent chance they're not also good against Jiggs. (Plus she's easier to perform well with in tournaments than Fox)

 

[swanized]

If you think the sheik matchup is impossible you're definitely not at that level yet

 

[SAUS]

Look at aMSa, for example. He mains a character that was considered to be absolutely terrible. Look at how far he's gotten now without switching. If you can't get as far as he has with Marth, then you definitely haven't hit this magical wall that requires you to play a secondary.

You could also look at PewPewU. I don't think I've ever seen him play any other character (not in tournaments, at least), he mains marth, and he does pretty damn well. Same idea here as with aMSa. There's enough of a skill range that you can get stupidly far with just one character by just constantly improving.

 

[CanadianBakn]

If you think the sheik matchup is impossible you're definitely not at that level yet

I don't think it's impossible, I'm just uncomfortable because it's extremely difficult.

The way I see the matchup right now, I need to work hard, Sheik has incredible punishes and an easier to play neutral game than Marth. Because my follow-ups are less automatic and more difficult, unless I am really on point she has more room to make mistakes.

I can pick up Fox against any other Sheik main in my city, and with absolutely zero tech practice or matchup experience do about the same as my Marth, maybe only slightly worse. This is really disheartening because I've worked really, really hard on both my Marth and this matchup, and invested almost no time in Fox.

I suppose once I get a better punish game (the fact that it's harder to execute is no longer an issue because I'm just very consistent with it) it'll feel easier. Until then, it's a real pain in the ass and it's a guarantee set loss unless I'm playing at least my B+ game that day, or I outclass the Sheik player by a fair margin.

EDIT: Approaching is also terrible in the matchup for both characters, but needles are easier to use as aggresion to force approaches than dash dancing. I guess the big problem I am having is that playing Marth against Sheik is just much more demanding than the other way around. You need to make few mistakes to win, and at my level, that's extremely difficult unless I'm playing my best that day.

 

[Clebus]

You have a shield. Don't worry about needles.

 

[Doomolish]

If you see Sheik jump, tip a fair in her face and she won't throw neddles.

Also, practice your techskill for at least an hour a day and you'll become better.

 

[knoxvader]

Look at aMSa, for example. He mains a character that was considered to be absolutely terrible. Look at how far he's gotten now without switching. If you can't get as far as he has with Marth, then you definitely haven't hit this magical wall that requires you to play a secondary.

You could also look at PewPewU. I don't think I've ever seen him play any other character (not in tournaments, at least), he mains marth, and he does pretty damn well. Same idea here as with aMSa. There's enough of a skill range that you can get stupidly far with just one character by just constantly improving.

Sadly, PewPewU pulled out Fox for a lot of NorCal Regionals this year, and won Grand Finals going Fox after game 1.