Is hard to perform tech good for Smash 4?

[Gidy]

Recently with the huge notice of perfect pivoting, a movement option that allows the player to slide in to an attack or just slide similar to wavedashing, Smashboards has been somewhat divided. Before with techniques like Charizards Sliding Rock Smash or pivot smashing with the C-Stick.

Perfect pivoting is nowhere as easy to perform as those previously mentioned techs, but the pay off is pretty great. I believe that Sakurai made Smash 4 with the mindset that anyone can pick up and play the game without learning these techniques, but as time goes on something is to be exploited.

Perfect pivoting being exploited is substantial compared to what's been discovered before, so this leads me to the threads question. Smash 4 has been very friendly towards newcomers but as more techs get found out and noticed the playing field won't be as close as it was in the start of Smash 4's life cycle.

 

[cot(θ)]

I'm generally against having too much of a "physical" barrier to competitive play, in terms of difficult inputs. However, I'm in favor of having more advanced movement options such as perfect pivot, and due to the sheer limitations of the controller and needing to keep simple movements simple for newcomers, making advanced techniques a bit more difficult to perform seems like a necessary evil.

 

[dragontamer]

Honestly... before complaining, please watch this tutorial on Guilty Gear One-frame Jumps.

http://youtu.be/5r6_XNELwFE?t=1m15s

We got it easy still. Don't worry.

 

[Pyr]

There is no such thing as a hard to perform tech. Just an unpracticed hand.

 

[kyxsune]

Honestly... before complaining, please watch this tutorial on Guilty Gear One-frame Jumps.

http://youtu.be/5r6_XNELwFE?t=1m15s

We got it easy still. Don't worry.

Well that seems nigh impossible to do consistently....yet some people do.

 

[Pyr]

Well that seems nigh impossible to do consistently....yet some people do.

Well, it's like 1 frame links in Street Fighter. Hard to learn? Ya. Easy to do once learned? Ya.

Edit: Here's a maxim that might apply to hard to do ATs:

Practice not until you succeed. Practice until you cannot fail.

Hard on the surface? Maybe. Once practiced, though, you'll wonder why you were ever concerned.

 

[Raijinken]

Advanced-input-based-tech is precisely counter to Sakurai's intent to make a deep and yet extremely accessible game, and thus, neither likely to be left in when discovered, nor necessarily good.

All ATs do is add a minimum reflex/reaction time limit to the type of player who can feasibly ever hope to compete. And that is bad from an accessibility standpoint.

We've a long way to go before we're too complicated.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I agree with @ Raijinken that ATs based on complex and/or frame-perfect inputs is counter to basically the whole point of Smash from a design perspective. It's why I've given up on trying to advance in Melee, I have better things to do with my time. (On a related note, I also seem to use characters that don't require very fast execution speed. I wonder if that's why.)

That said, the fact that Perfect Pivot is literally nothing more than turning around really quickly and precisely makes it hard for me to legitimately complain about it.

 

[MezzoMe]

Having things like a tech that is hard to perform is not exactly what Sakurai wanted, as explained above.
Nevertheless, he deliberately makes choices that would make me think otherwise, such as the new buffering system,
jab locks being still in and it's clear that he wanted to since they are limited to three bounces, and, of course, the whole existence of powershielding.
I think that he doesn't bother too much for things like this as long that they don't become the main factor at deciding how a match goes, such as Melee crouch cancelling(the first tier lists and to a lesser extent, the last ones, where strongly influenced by how a character could counter crouch-cancelling), where knowing a technique translates to the "I win" button.

 

[SuaveChaser]

People are fine with anything that is easier to do. I have no issue with this stuff more options to work with.

 

[Raijinken]

Having things like a tech that is hard to perform is not exactly what Sakurai wanted, as explained above.
Nevertheless, he deliberately makes choices that would make me think otherwise, such as the new buffering system,
jab locks being still in and it's clear that he wanted to since they are limited to three bounces, and, of course, the whole existence of powershielding.
I think that he doesn't bother too much for things like this as long that they don't become the main factor at deciding how a match goes, such as Melee crouch cancelling(the first tier lists and to a lesser extent, the last ones, where strongly influenced by how a character could counter crouch-cancelling), where knowing a technique translates to the "I win" button.

On that note, I'd have sworn I saw a tip in-game more or less saying crouch canceling is in, though if that's the case it's obviously weakened. And as mentioned, having a normal technique, like powershielding or perfect pivoting, isn't really advanced, it's just relatively hard - you're not doing anything that can be considered even remotely close to an edge case or a corner case of interactions. A powershield is just... a well-timed shield. A perfect pivot is... a well-timed turnaround. And yes, L canceling was just... a well-timed button press that normally... had literally nothing to do with your attacks lag. And a wavedash was a well timed... method of dodging in the air without being able to attack, suddenly applied to the ground, that also resulted in the ability to attack.

Half of the issue with the more significant ATs is that, no matter how much you argue for them (they're fun to pull off, and quite effective, I don't deny it), they aren't intuitive to the traits of their executional components. Even DACUS is a bit odd, since while it's an interruption of a move that typically makes you go forward, and puts that forwardness on another move, it's still an unexpected interrupt of one thing by another for a wholly unexpected outcome.

 

[Chuva]

I'm fine with them as long as I'm not bound to have an arthritis

 

[MezzoMe]

On that note, I'd have sworn I saw a tip in-game more or less saying crouch canceling is in, though if that's the case it's obviously weakened. And as mentioned, having a normal technique, like powershielding or perfect pivoting, isn't really advanced, it's just relatively hard - you're not doing anything that can be considered even remotely close to an edge case or a corner case of interactions. A powershield is just... a well-timed shield. A perfect pivot is... a well-timed turnaround. And yes, L canceling was just... a well-timed button press that normally... had literally nothing to do with your attacks lag. And a wavedash was a well timed... method of dodging in the air without being able to attack, suddenly applied to the ground, that also resulted in the ability to attack.

Half of the issue with the more significant ATs is that, no matter how much you argue for them (they're fun to pull off, and quite effective, I don't deny it), they aren't intuitive to the traits of their executional components. Even DACUS is a bit odd, since while it's an interruption of a move that typically makes you go forward, and puts that forwardness on another move, it's still an unexpected interrupt of one thing by another for a wholly unexpected outcome.

That's what I said, apparently the problem for the Samurai isn't if something is or not advanced, but how it is counter-intuitive, wich results in the ones that don't find that same thing either by themselves or by surfing the Internet having a disadvantage against the ones that do, a.k.a. Guide Dang It trope.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On that note, I'd have sworn I saw a tip in-game more or less saying crouch canceling is in, though if that's the case it's obviously weakened. And as mentioned, having a normal technique, like powershielding or perfect pivoting, isn't really advanced, it's just relatively hard - you're not doing anything that can be considered even remotely close to an edge case or a corner case of interactions. A powershield is just... a well-timed shield. A perfect pivot is... a well-timed turnaround. And yes, L canceling was just... a well-timed button press that normally... had literally nothing to do with your attacks lag. And a wavedash was a well timed... method of dodging in the air without being able to attack, suddenly applied to the ground, that also resulted in the ability to attack.

Half of the issue with the more significant ATs is that, no matter how much you argue for them (they're fun to pull off, and quite effective, I don't deny it), they aren't intuitive to the traits of their executional components. Even DACUS is a bit odd, since while it's an interruption of a move that typically makes you go forward, and puts that forwardness on another move, it's still an unexpected interrupt of one thing by another for a wholly unexpected outcome.

Yep. Here it is:

Crouching's Defensive Value: Going into a crouch will help protect you from being launched as far. Walking while crouched, however, won't help at all--but it looks pretty hilarious!

Pastebin with more. Not all of them, but a lot of interesting ones.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Crouch canceling is in, yeah. I've seen the tip, I think I took a picture too.

However, while it does reduce KB, I don't think it ever effectively nullifies KB like it can in Melee or PM (I think CC is also stronger in PM than Melee, but idk for sure)

Personally, from a fun perspective, I like ATs because they just feel so rewarding (even simple ones like dash dancing. DDing is one of my favorite things to do in Smash). As for how healthy they are or the game... I don't want to go down that road personally.

 

[kyxsune]

@ Pyr @ D dragontamer

Great now u got me looking up techs in other fighting games.

I'm fine with them as long as I'm not bound to have an arthritis

Arthritis? No u don't have to worry about that. With perfect pivot they'll have to amputate ur arm from the elbow.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i do't like stuff that fundamentally changes how the game is played. i'll give this a try, but i don't like this.

 

[Pyr]

i do't like stuff that fundamentally changes how the game is played. i'll give this a try, but i don't like this.

I guess you don't like progress, either. If it was a bug, you'd have a point. This is just game mechanics that have been around for decades now.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I guess you don't like progress, either. If it was a bug, you'd have a point. This is just game mechanics that have been around for decades now.

it was around and it wasn't use dlike this. CPUs don't do it.

 

[Firehyphen]

i do't like stuff that fundamentally changes how the game is played. i'll give this a try, but i don't like this.

You dont have to learn most tech to be good at this game.

 

[1MachGO]

Advanced-input-based-tech is precisely counter to Sakurai's intent to make a deep and yet extremely accessible game, and thus, neither likely to be left in when discovered, nor necessarily good.

When did Sakurai say this? Pretty sure he never elaborated on the importance of "depth" in smash; especially when describing Brawl or reflecting on Melee vs. Brawl design philosophies. As far as I can tell, he is strictly for accessibility (not that any of his games ever lacked it).

 

[Pyr]

it was around and it wasn't use dlike this. CPUs don't do it.

We do 1000 things computers don't do. That's an extremely poor argument and is a scrubby mentality.

 

[Shaya]

I've seen CPUs do crazy things throughout my years of Brawl and Smash 4 thus far. Perfect pivoting in a weird/nonsensical instance? Pretty sure I've seen it.

 

[Gidy]

I wonder if Amiibos can learn to perfect pivot....

 

[Pyr]

I wonder if Amiibos can learn to perfect pivot....

If they can, Pikachu can't. Source: 1-50 training while practicing the Pivot.

 

[Gawain]

Honestly... before complaining, please watch this tutorial on Guilty Gear One-frame Jumps.

http://youtu.be/5r6_XNELwFE?t=1m15s

We got it easy still. Don't worry.

Even that is nothing compared to 1 frame links in SF IV. Doing those consistently on command takes the same amount of precision, multiple times. Smash bros is pretty easy compared to most other games on the technical side. Even Melee's advanced techniques aren't that bad. The only thing I'd say that is about as hard is consistently pulling off waveshine combos with Fox. The skill factor in Smash comes more from the player's mind. It's about understanding how moves work, knowing options and how to cover them.

There are more variables to consider in Smash (most of the time) than in other fighting games. But there is definitely a higher execution standard for most other fighting games, I never understood the people who complain about it.

 

[Raijinken]

When did Sakurai say this? Pretty sure he never elaborated on the importance of "depth" in smash; especially when describing Brawl or reflecting on Melee vs. Brawl design philosophies. As far as I can tell, he is strictly for accessibility (not that any of his games ever lacked it).

I can't say I've heard "deep" as a direct quote, though it's possible. I'm sure he'd have cut the pivots and things if he was really against having some depth, though.

 

[dragontamer]

Even that is nothing compared to 1 frame links in SF IV. Doing those consistently on command takes the same amount of precision, multiple times.

Erm... what? There is a 1-frame window to execute the fuzzy jump in Guilty Gear... the timing is as strict as a one-frame link. Except unlike in one-frame links, you have to execute the one-frame jump during your opponent's pressure string. One-frame links are easier because they're 100% in control of the attacking character. But a one-frame jump is a frame-perfect defense option in reaction anticipation to your opponent's moves.

Furthermore, one-frame jump eats up tension bar due to use of FD, so if you're very low on tension in GG, you might not want to be using one-frame jumps.

Do note, the one-frame jump of Guilty Gear is then combined with other defensive options to make a Fuzzy Jump option select. So the one-frame jump isn't even the most technical form of the game.

Guilty Gear is probably the most technical fighter... even moreso than SF IV. If anything were challenging GG in technicalities... its MvC2. Anyway, I'm hoping GG Xrd (released two days ago) will be easier to play. There is such a thing as "too technical" afterall.

 

[1MachGO]

I can't say I've heard "deep" as a direct quote, though it's possible. I'm sure he'd have cut the pivots and things if he was really against having some depth, though.

So then your argument is purely based in speculation. I could just as easily say that removing wavedashing shows he has something against depth (which, honestly, has more basis than what you're saying about pivots).

Unless you can produce concrete evidence that Sakurai values depth just as much as accessibility, you shouldn't use it to justify your personal opinions about competitive smash.

 

[DarkDream]

Perfect pivot is harder to do than wave dashing, for the simple purpose of having to train yourself to be able to flick the stick in two directions fast enough to not get the spot dash dance, while still being able to follow up without getting another dash fast enough to allow you to do what you want. All this for limited application based entirely on your characters initial dash.

I feel like this will only serve to make the good characters better, but I haven't tested it much just yet. But this is definitely hard on the thumb movement, least for me

 

[Raijinken]

So then your argument is purely based in speculation. I could just as easily say that removing wavedashing shows he has something against depth (which, honestly, has more basis than what you're saying about pivots).

Unless you can produce concrete evidence that Sakurai values depth just as much as accessibility, you shouldn't use it to justify your personal opinions about competitive smash.

Found it. In this article, "The most important thing is that the game have breadth and depth, since we would like them to be popular with both novices and hardcore gamers."

So, there we have it. He likes an appropriate balance of accessibility and depth, which can appeal to all crowds without alienating people.

 

[1MachGO]

Found it. In this article, "The most important thing is that the game have breadth and depth, since we would like them to be popular with both novices and hardcore gamers."

So, there we have it. He likes an appropriate balance of accessibility and depth, which can appeal to all crowds without alienating people.

You are correct, his "vision" changed for smash 4...

"Although the pace of the game had to be lowered compared to Melee in order to achieve this balance, we have managed to keep the dynamism because we didn’t have to gear towards novice players like we did with Brawl."

So he didn't care about depth for Brawl's development, but if depth will give Nintendo more $$$ he'll implement it.

Its silly to suggest the Melee is "complicated" to the point of being "tiring". I suppose this is why so many new players joined the scene 13 years later...

 

[guedes the brawler]

We do 1000 things computers don't do. That's an extremely poor argument and is a scrubby mentality.

but aFAIK they are generally spread apart, locked to characters or their moves and most don't require re-learning the game. it's different from, say, learnign how to space better. i personally find it off-putting but whatever if nobody else agrees.

 

[Feryn Hyrk]

It seems that they do that already on smash 64 as seen in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl-ntqAcMDY

Now I wonder if that's easier to do on the N64 controller? If I rememeber well that controller stick used to break like hell.

Also, even on the GC controller this perfect pivot thing is hard as **** to do man, I thought it was almost impossible until I saw a different video than OPs wich tell you to imediately turn the stick to neutral after the second direction... that helped me do it more often but still it's been more like a gamble (and a hard one) if it will come out or not... I hope I get this frame timing and that it doesn't kill my dear smash gc controller...

sorry, wrong topic... still, what I said might be in this topic too

 

[Roukiske]

The difficulty of performing tech is subjective I think we can agree on that right? Some people just have a hard time doing certain things because we're all wired differently.

Let's talk wavedash for the sake of how easy/hard it is to do. The phyics of it make sense right? You are doing an airdodge (VERY similar to an airdash in fighting games) and your momentum carries you over. So, what you have to do is press the jump button, move the stick in the direction you want to go, and press 1 button to 'airdash'. Now that may sound easy or hard depending on the person, but consider this: what if airdodge was done by double tapping the stick instead of 1 button? What if it was 2 buttons? What if before you hit the ground you have to cancel your airdash with another button to get the slide motion?

Well as we can see, it could be harder. Could it be easier? That's also subjective. What if there was a turn around button or keep facing left button, so now you can run while facing away from the opponent and for some reason you can perform any action out of dash. Now you can space yourself while facing the direction you want (just one out of many the reasons to wavedash). Now its as simple as pressing the turn around button and moving the analog stick. Is that easier? To some maybe, to some maybe not (I'm looking at you Guilty Gear for at one point having a turn around button! GAH)

So back to the initial question, is hard to perform tech good for Smash 4? No, its not good. If maybe only 100 people in the world could do it then god that must be some hard tech. But if say, 500,000 players ranging from hardcore to someone who played for 1 month could do it, then its not very hard right? It opens up some options while giving everyone the ability to do so without having to practice for years.

I say this because in my personal opinion and experiences, wavedash is not 'hard'. Multishines however, to me, that's hard to do, but people can do it so they might say differently.

*jokingly* Wave shine however, is so easy even Wes himself said he can teach his mom to wave shine. Here's the video! ah...this used to be one of my favorite videos back in the day :]

 

[ParanoidDrone]

*jokingly* Wave shine however, is so easy even Wes himself said he can teach his mom to wave shine. Here's the video! ah...this used to be one of my favorite videos back in the day :]

...what did I just watch? Seriously.

 

[Raijinken]

You are correct, his "vision" changed for smash 4...

"Although the pace of the game had to be lowered compared to Melee in order to achieve this balance, we have managed to keep the dynamism because we didn’t have to gear towards novice players like we did with Brawl."

So he didn't care about depth for Brawl's development, but if depth will give Nintendo more $$$ he'll implement it.

Its silly to suggest the Melee is "complicated" to the point of being "tiring". I suppose this is why so many new players joined the scene 13 years later...

It's fairly well known that repeated execution of Melee's ATs (to say nothing of numerous other precisely-timed quick inputs in other games) is physically bad for your hands over time, moreso than regular techniques.

But either way, it is what it is. Sakurai thinks a balance can be stricken, and a lot of people prefer it that way. A lot of others prefer it other ways, and y'know, not one Smash game has been objectively bad.

 

[Darklink401]

I like the fact that perfect pivoting is simple, in theory, it just requires good timing.

However, out of respect for my control stick's health, I won't be using it TOO much.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I like the fact that perfect pivoting is simple, in theory, it just requires good timing.

However, out of respect for my control stick's health, I won't be using it TOO much.

This is how I feel about perfect pivoting.
First it was the madness of broken 3DS sticks. I already have around 4 GC controllers with faulty/broken sticks. And I want to be the best I can be at the game. But... those things are expensive I tell ya.
For now I guess I'll practice it a bit but not concentrate my style of playing around it. If the opportunity rises, it will come out naturally, like wavedash (which was easier to perform than P. Pivot, or maybe that is just me).

 

[Darklink401]

This is how I feel about perfect pivoting.
First it was the madness of broken 3DS sticks. I already have around 4 GC controllers with faulty/broken sticks. And I want to be the best I can be at the game. But... those things are expensive I tell ya.
For now I guess I'll practice it a bit but not concentrate my style of playing around it. If the opportunity rises, it will come out naturally, like wavedash (which was easier to perform than P. Pivot, or maybe that is just me).

I mainly just use perfect pivoting when it comes to doing a Perfect Pivot FSmash with Marth, and stuff, since that kind of stuff can be really good.

I wouldn't use it frequently~