Is feminism hurting men?

[EmpireCrusher203]

Guys, Feminists are just like internet trolls. They hate half of the population, zealously spread their opinions, and disapproves the opinions of others at all costs. The best way for men to combat them is to ignore them. They are too worried about their ****ing 33 cents than, oh I don't know, GLOBAL WARMING, ISIS, NORTH KOREA, and the list goes on of issues more important than this one. Is it unfair? Yes. But our government has bigger issues to tackle right now. Now if you encountered a feminist one day and feel like smashing a wall, we get it, they're a pain. They are equivalent of a multi-racial Black Lives Matter, minus the men and the killing. Patriarchy has been around for thousands of years, and you know what, it's been working fine for those thousands of year. Men work, women care. You cant argue with that. Why do you think men have more testosterone? Because we've adapted to doing all the work. And the whole 77 cents to a dollar thing is a lie. Don't listen to the feminists. They are twisting the truth, much like Black Lives Matter, to demonize the issue.

 

[Maven89]

Can you give an example?


Suppose we grant that each gender is better at certain things and that at least part of the explanation is biological (instead of cultural). What about the minority of men who excel at nurturing and decorating, and the minority of women who excel at building? We all should have the freedom to act contrary to our gender roles without being shamed or punished. We should help and encourage and empathise with men when they feel weak, just as we praise women when they show strength. Feminists and MRA's should agree on this point, though in fact feminists often are the ones shaming men.

I think this is a joke and false equivalency, which shows the sexism in your position. Women do not show "weakness", they show a different type of strength then men. By claiming women are weak, or showing strength is a man trait, you're admitting that you think women should be judged as if they're men. They're not men, you don't judge them the same. A man who spends a war watching over a house and children is shirking from his manly obligations (fighting), a woman doing the same is doing her obligation. If a man wants to stay at home he's only weak because he's a man, not because staying home is inherently weak. We have a gender role, I'm fine if people want to do differently, but every man should be capable of fulfilling his gender role, and every woman should be capable of fulfilling hers, whether they do so or not. A man who is physically weak, incapable of doing any manual work, and is a giant coward should not be praised or empathized with, because they're bad men. A woman who wants to abandon her family to focus on career when they don't need the money shouldn't be praised, she's being a bad woman. There's obvious exemptions (physical disability, poverty/lower income requiring a woman to work so kids can eat), but by and large this is how humanity operates, we each have a part to play and we have to fulfill it.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think this is a joke and false equivalency, which shows the sexism in your position. Women do not show "weakness", they show a different type of strength then men. By claiming women are weak, or showing strength is a man trait, you're admitting that you think women should be judged as if they're men. They're not men, you don't judge them the same. A man who spends a war watching over a house and children is shirking from his manly obligations (fighting), a woman doing the same is doing her obligation. If a man wants to stay at home he's only weak because he's a man, not because staying home is inherently weak. We have a gender role, I'm fine if people want to do differently, but every man should be capable of fulfilling his gender role, and every woman should be capable of fulfilling hers, whether they do so or not. A man who is physically weak, incapable of doing any manual work, and is a giant coward should not be praised or empathized with, because they're bad men. A woman who wants to abandon her family to focus on career when they don't need the money shouldn't be praised, she's being a bad woman. There's obvious exemptions (physical disability, poverty/lower income requiring a woman to work so kids can eat), but by and large this is how humanity operates, we each have a part to play and we yew have to fulfill it.

... I've been away too long.

So the keyword we seem to be missing here is Traditional. Traditional Gender Roles state that indeed men should work, war, do sweaty stuff, and women should tend to the household, the children, etc. I say missing because your argument hinges on the assumption that these gender roles still have meaning.

They don't.

Not only do we have new types of households in same-sex family units, but we also have many new types of professions that demand nothing physical but instead mental prowess.

Just about every blue collar family man I've met including my own father wants ONE thing for their child/children. For them to go to school and get a good education so they don't have to labor like they do.

And ever since the collapse of the American economy you can almost always be guaranteed to have to both be working. Mothers and fathers. It's not like it was 30 40 50 years ago when 1 income was enough and men gladly enlisted if their country called to action. Vietnam was a poor man's war. And the desert conflicts starting in the 90s are no better. We have vets coming home after 4 tours and can't find work.

American economy forbids gender roles in the traditional sense when looking at demographic population between poverty line and lower middle income, which is basically 80% of the population.

I get where you're coming from. But it's far less applicable these days than when say, I was growing up. During the 70s and 80s women did make a lot less than men, and male dominant industries flourished. But since the children of those ages have now grown up they're finding out they've inherited such horrible economic debt that they can't just slip into the same roles their parents played.

 

[Maven89]

I'm aware of the economic necessity of this, I was raised by a single mother and I'm currently 27 (though unmarried), every woman I've dated since being an adult has had a job, and I wasn't telling her to quit and clean the apartment for me. In my work I've had female bosses more professional and qualified then male bosses. I wasn't arguing that we need to return to 17th century relations, but my point was that these underlying gender differences are real, they're not artificial, which is what claiming gender roles are no longer relevant would make them. They're absolutely relevant, because it touches on who we are as a people. It needs to be remembered and addressed, because from my earlier point, Men's Right's activists reject this. They claim they should be allowed to treat a woman just the same as a man, if a woman gets in their face they should be allowed to punch her, if they're getting drafted a woman should be drafted. I think that's ridiculous. Gender roles are what we each want from ourselves (what man is perfectly acceptable being called unmanly?), and people shouldn't be told they're wrong for wanting it. (That last point is really meant towards some feminists who argue that a woman who stays home is a "weak woman" and a gender traitor.)

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm aware of the economic necessity of this, I was raised by a single mother and I'm currently 27 (though unmarried), every woman I've dated since being an adult has had a job, and I wasn't telling her to quit and clean the apartment for me. In my work I've had female bosses more professional and qualified then male bosses. I wasn't arguing that we need to return to 17th century relations, but my point was that these underlying gender differences are real, they're not artificial, which is what claiming gender roles are no longer relevant would make them. They're absolutely relevant, because it touches on who we are as a people. It needs to be remembered and addressed, because from my earlier point, Men's Right's activists reject this. They claim they should be allowed to treat a woman just the same as a man, if a woman gets in their face they should be allowed to punch her, if they're getting drafted a woman should be drafted. I think that's ridiculous. Gender roles are what we each want from ourselves (what man is perfectly acceptable being called unmanly?), and people shouldn't be told they're wrong for wanting it. (That last point is really meant towards some feminists who argue that a woman who stays home is a "weak woman" and a gender traitor.)

Thank you for clarifying.

What exactly do you find ridiculous about women entering the draft? Are you saying men are more disposable than women? Or are you suggesting that men somehow belong on the battlefield moreso than women? Or about physical violence, are we content to assume that men should only hit men? These questions may seem obvious but there's an underlying problem with the assumptions being made in answering them.

That is to say, the idea that a man should not hit a woman is an extension of chivalry, which is basically the quintessential example of male dominance and female submission. So too, saying only men should die in battle reinforces the idea that men are more disposable (ergo worthless).

Btw not trying to butt in on y'alls conversation just your response stood out to me and I felt compelled to respond.

 

[AfungusAmongus]

I think this is a joke and false equivalency, which shows the sexism in your position. Women do not show "weakness", they show a different type of strength then men. By claiming women are weak, or showing strength is a man trait, you're admitting that you think women should be judged as if they're men. They're not men, you don't judge them the same. A man who spends a war watching over a house and children is shirking from his manly obligations (fighting), a woman doing the same is doing her obligation. If a man wants to stay at home he's only weak because he's a man, not because staying home is inherently weak. We have a gender role, I'm fine if people want to do differently, but every man should be capable of fulfilling his gender role, and every woman should be capable of fulfilling hers, whether they do so or not. A man who is physically weak, incapable of doing any manual work, and is a giant coward should not be praised or empathized with, because they're bad men. A woman who wants to abandon her family to focus on career when they don't need the money shouldn't be praised, she's being a bad woman. There's obvious exemptions (physical disability, poverty/lower income requiring a woman to work so kids can eat), but by and large this is how humanity operates, we each have a part to play and we have to fulfill it.

Why should we "have to" fulfill our assigned role? If Mom pulls in $100k/year but is awkward with kids and hates doing housework, and Dad could only make $40k/year (enough to feed them, but fewer toys, vacations etc.) but is fantastic with kids and loves keeping things tidy, it would be stupid to have her stay home while he worked. Ideally, every human should be capable of *both* gender roles, earning and nurturing. But as long as we're all good at something, we can have meaningful and fulfilling lives. Why make such harsh judgments of men who are physically weak and women who don't want to deal with messy whiny brats, if they have something equally valuable they'd rather contribute to society? Women do in fact show weakness when they cry or seek help - to a large extent this is healthy and should be encouraged in men. Men suffer from poorer health, addiction, suicide, and early death largely because people shame them for reaching out when they're down. This is one reason why male victims of **** and domestic violence have such a hard time getting support - people expect them to defend themselves, and are ignorant of the ways women have power over men (shaming, emotional abuse, false accusations). I'm not saying genders should completely equalize, just that we shouldn't force them to be more different than they need to be.

 

[davidvkimball]

First off, I'm all for equal rights of men and women, but with such a huge rise in feminism; it's forcing men to stay even more quiet about their personal and social issues. Yes, women have a lot of **** wrong with them in society, but men have just as much, and with (some) women constantly belittling men and their issues; saying that they're "priviliged, and mysoginistic", does that hurt men's social progression?

The original concept of feminism surely did not hurt men. It was about equality and simply aimed to raise women up to the same level as men in society.
Modern feminism is a broad spectrum of ideas, with the most prominent sadly being the one that tries to inflict upon men what happened to women in earlier times, and sometimes even worse. That kind of feminism is harmful to anyone.

Basically what Lichi said! First wave feminism was fantastic, nay, necessary for society. The same cannot be said for second and third wave feminism.

As to whether or not modern feminism in particular is harming men, I think it absolutely is. The movement is attempting to systematically shame men for being... men, and in attempt to subvert traditional roles, breaks households and family structures more than it successfully uplifts and celebrates women as much as it tries.

 

[Floor]

Oh my, do people still believe in this mythical wage gap? The whole "women make 77 cents per dollar a man makes" is based on mean income for all men and all women. Thus it doesnt take into account gender-based gravitational fields (men dominate engineering, women dominate nursing and gender studies). It doesnt take into account hours worked (men work slightly longer on avergae), dangerous working conditions (most accidents in the work place happen to men) nor does it take into account the aggressiveness men have when pursuing promotions.

 

[Ten of Nine]

Yes and to be even more honest the Wage Gap is actually the complete opposite of what delusional feminist argue.

For instance think about how men are naturally stronger and have more stamina for labor intensive jobs.

Not just for physically stressful jobs but simple things like at retail....men are still called almost exclusively to get carts, to carry and unload heavy items, to work heavy bulky freight, to clean up spills and broken glass. Leaving your body more drained and requiring more food and sleep to recharge for the same amount a woman who has much less work required of her for the same title and pay. Women get to do the much easier aspects of the job, possibly never having to go outside in the heat/cold, etc. It's an all or nothing type of sexism.

Or look at Military front-line jobs. If you're on the battlefield or in a situation where you are injured and you have to depend on the average build trained man or the average build trained woman to carry you a few miles to safety (or take down a 6'3" dude with a weapon). Who naturally is going to succeed more? Who would you want there in these life or death situations?

The fact is that biologically Men are different from Women. It's weird to force equal pay even in these scenarios if equal work and abilities aren't there. The same goes for how "Politically Correct" companies have becomes with disabilities. There are jobs where these differences are null and void but for those positions where it's not equal work it's insulting and unfair.

 

[Nebbyla]

honestly i have no clue. most people i meet think its ridiculous and would do a lot to prevent a false **** allegation, but (surprise surprise coughtumblrcoughgoogle+cough) a lot of people i've met online are pretty disgusting with different views on how men should be treated. but here's the thing: is it that much of a problem? from what ive seen its rare for a man to be punished severely because he is a man who allegedly hurt a woman (and didnt) but it could be much more broad than i've thought and maybe it is a big problem.

 

[Nohbl]

Yeah, I think so. It's maybe not even feminism per se, because I'm not at all going to ardently advocate that, for example, females should not be allowed to vote. I think it's this newest wave of feminism, either influenced by or influencing SJW-ism, that is putting a large strain on gender relations and placing undue trouble upon males everywhere.

 

[MiniSara]

Depends on your definition of feminism. As long as you're free to express yourself, and people don't make their own values into universal facts, I see no problem with feminism. It's just an ideology like so many others.

 

[DunnoBro]

Feminism does not. The underlying beliefs are rarely that damaging, otherwise they couldn't gather any kind of decent following. Religion and Cults follow the same logic. So no, the stated belief and definition of Feminism is NOT hurting men.

Feminists are. The eroding of men's rights and advantages while artificially supplementing women's. The issue is then worsened by the current dogma of feminists to not marry non-feminist men. It's the exact same recruitment strategy religions use. If you can only control the women, you will control the men. (Or at least that's what they believe)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Feminism in it's original cause was highly honorable. Modern feminism is a complete joke. How in the hell can you worry more about men not wanting their goods crushed than forced female circumcision in lands as Somalia? You want equality you say, but your attitude speaks of dominion over men instead.

 

[BagrB0y]

Absolutely! How'd you know?!

This entire website is primarily cishetero men. You don't honestly believe you won't find a huge bias here do you? Anyways, the real answer is no, it doesn't. You on an individual basis may be facing more problems than an individual woman, but on a whole, men have it a lot better.

Not saying this is inherently wrong, but what rights do men have that Women don't?
Because the last 'rights' I have heard women being denied are being treated as objects (by individuals, not by law- Which is not a legal right) and having less efficient bathroom space because even though women have the same sq. ft of space as men in bathrooms, men can use Urinals which are smaller.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Feminism doesn't hurt men. It's core is nothing but good.

However, the radicalization of worldwide politics and fringe groups being able to take root and grow due to the internet, is hurting everyone.

 

[Astroworld]

absolutely

It’s been a complete joke for the past decade or so

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I haven't talked to a feminist online that hasn't been hostile to me, but on the other hand I've met nice ones in real life. So do feminists and feminist movements have the potential to hurt men? Sure. With that being said I'm always warry when people call something radical or extreme when the very same feminists that some praise in this same thread were regarded as such during their time. Still, that doesn't mean a feminist or a feminist movement can't be harmful.

For me it's all in the details. I'm seeing the strength between two sexes brought up. While I do agree that the average and cap of strength is greater for men. I do not agree that a woman is incapable of doing a job. In sports? Sure, I can see that why that's segregated. But when it comes to services? I don't know why a woman should be prevented from getting such a job if she's proven herself capable. Just like a man would really. My Mom's gotten a job as a longshoreman. I wouldn't say she's abnormally strong. She's just healthy, fit. The difference between her and other women who tried out for the job was that she put effort into the physical exercises. Most other woman just sat around and talked when they practiced.

And that's another thing, I'm not for forced equity either. I mean, when the norm for so long has been that woman shouldn't work labor jobs(which makes sense in societies going way back, but living conditions have drastically changed), of course most are not going to. That's already the norm for them not to. Which leads me to another thing which is what defines manhood and womanhood also varies across the cultures.

 

[Slugma128]

The main problem with feminism is that men and women were not made equal by nature, so how can we become equal? Only by forcing it.

This is why feminism started as a way of giving women equal opportunity, but when they discovered that it still did not lead to equality, they started to force it in. It is the same thing with "everyone is equal". The only way to make everyone equal is to force it, as some people are smart, some are dumb, some are beautiful, some are ugly etc.

The whole equality mindset completely disregards of biology and nature, and only focus on emotions and feelings.

 

[iCrash]

While I have upmost respect for people willing to honestly say what they think is wrong with society or could be improved in a constructive non-violent way, and my favorite speech growing up was Sojourner Truth's "And Ain't I a Woman", modern feminism is a complete and utter joke and causes more harm than good.

Modern feminists have repeatedly attacked MRA groups on a variety of fronts, or pushed for changes that while good for women would disenfranchise men- This was actually how the MRA movement started in the first place, and it unfortunately seems history repeats itself on a regular basis in that regard.

Furthermore, feminist movements have both undermined their own credibility and hurt other groups besides men. Several leaders of the womens march were anti-semitic, and this was known by other leaders of the womens march for multiple years now. Along with this, to my knowledge, no pro-life women were invited to speak at the womens march.

on a serious note!! feminism itself is not hindering men's social progression in any way, shape or form, but the crazy extremists who take it too far are.

also someone saying "men are dumb" isn't nearly as bad as little girls being forced into marriage and housework and being ***** by older men but yeah ;w;w;w;

What about the man who tried to open a domestic abuse shelter and was harassed so badly by feminists he killed himself?
What about willfully ignoring equal or even greater amounts of domestic abuse coming from females?

Not saying that women should have their rights deprived, but 3rd wave feminism has done a lot more to disenfranchise men than "calling men dumb", and mocking people for being opposed to radical rhetoric and tactics employed by feminists only serves to further undermine the movement as a whole.

Feminism is a movement based on a concept, you dont control who is a feminist any more than me or a crazy radical feminist does. But when your response to criticism of violent or disruptive tactics employed by feminists is not to criticize or call out the action, but to instead say 'no, thats not REAL feminism' the only thing you have done is alienated people who otherwise may have agreed on certain things.

 

[Buuhan]

I’m not going to include a giant wall of text like the rest of nerds debaters above but I will say this:


Feminism is dumb dood. Sthap it.

 

[st marshmallow]

I know this thread is from 2016 but 90% of the people in this thread are acting like whack ass tumblr SJW's are actually relevant. And probably believe whatever the anti-SJW youtuber bandwagon tells them to.


Men can be victims, men need emotional support, and men are subject to domestic violence that often goes unaddressed. Feminists are pretty much the only people standing up for men's issues such as these. And standing up for women's issues like pay gap and sexual abuse/harassment (which is not exclusive to women, i.e. Terry Crews but disproportionately affects them) is not hurting men in any way. Having more competition in the workforce means that both parties will have to fight to gain that position, it's not like employers will be like "MEN BAD, WOMEN GOOD....". No you're not being discriminated because you're a man, you just have to compete with both men AND women now.

 

[Lore]

st marshmallow I agree with your post, but if I were you, I'd remove that last bit. We try to keep a fairly even tone back here, and while I agree with the sentiment of your last statement, it's unfortunately over the line of the standards in this room.

Given how online culture is in general today, you can probably tell that it's pretty difficult to keep that standard up lately. But I'd still remove that last bit; I'd do it myself, but I don't mod back here.

If it helps, the person above you was warned for their spam post. We do try to have consequences for that crap.

(fully agreed with your post as a whole though, legit)

 

[Deleted member]

There are a lot of things that are hurting me both physical and mentally at the moment.

Feminism isn't one of them in any form.
So at least in my case, it doesn't hurt me.