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Is falco the charachter most dependent on tech skill?

Van.

Smash Ace
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Jul 13, 2010
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This summer i wont have an oppurtunity to play anyone serious about smash (ill be in another country) and so i thought i would use the oppurtunity to completely polish my tech skill. Am i correct in assuming that falco is the charachter that perfecting tech skill is the most important for doing? If not, which charachter(s) would you say can be played better than others by a smasher who knows no mindgames and has no mental ability whatsoever in melee? thanks.
 

Animal

Smash Lord
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umm i would say ice climbers,(but thats not the type of tech skill your thinking of), but more fox than falco.
 

Aldwyn McCloud

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If not, which charachter(s) would you say can be played better than others by a smasher who knows no mindgames and has no mental ability whatsoever in melee? thanks.
No character can be brought to a high level without mindgames and mental abilities.

Apart from this your question isn't clear enough because there is no real definition of what can be considered "technical". Take Sheik for example. Using her moveset doesn't require much button mashing but still requires a lot of accuracy with timings and spacing. That can be considered a technical issue just as much as learning waveshines with Fox/Falco is.

That said, Fox and Falco are definitely the characters that require the highest level of button mashing (if this is what you meant with technical).

The problem is that no technical skill can really be learned without the aid of a human opponent. What usually will happen is that you master a technique in training mode but as soon as you try it out against a human opponent you lose focus because you're not used to follow the movements of a human player.

This applies expecially to those techniques and patterns that leave your opponent enough room for reaction. When trying to do a combo with Falco for example, finger speed is not the only requirement. You also need mindgames to follow up your opponent's DI.

Considering your situation, my suggestion is to try learning Ice Climber's chaingrabs or wobbling (many tournament organizers ban wobbling but if they don't you can kill your opponent with a single grab once you've mastered it). Both require a very high level of technical skills and your opponent can't really do much.
 
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The problem is that no technical skill can really be learned without the aid of a human opponent. What usually will happen is that you master a technique in training mode but as soon as you try it out against a human opponent you lose focus because you're not used to follow the movements of a human player.
Just to deviate a little bit, this is exactly why I believe it is best for people to practice against moving opponents. Never try it against a standing opponent since your do not really simulate a match very well in training mode with trying out a new technique.
 

Aldwyn McCloud

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My home (in Italy :D)
Just to deviate a little bit, this is exactly why I believe it is best for people to practice against moving opponents. Never try it against a standing opponent since your do not really simulate a match very well in training mode with trying out a new technique.
Training mode can still be useful. Sometimes techniques won't work because your fingers, rather than your mind, aren't fast enough. However 90% of the time is actually the other way around yet people fail to understand it. As you said, human opponents are the best training.
 

Byron 1337

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Well id have to say fox, in terms of raw speed of how fast you have to press the buttons, but falco would be close. Either way you wont improve much by playing a computer all the time, id reccomend learning movement tricks and practice running around and wavelanding a lot too, its really useful when you are playing a human compared to most of the really technical stuff fox can do.
 

mastermoo420

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I'd have to say the lower tiers are the most dependent on techskill. Yes, techskill and mindgames are required for every single character, but due to their inherent weaknesses as characters, they require far more fluency and competence in the beautiful language that is techskill.
 

FoxLisk

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Jun 18, 2007
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i'd say falco definitely. fox is not technique dependent. a fox who candash dance, grab combo, waveshine, l cancel, and edgeguard is at like 80% power. those are all easy things to do. a falco who can't shine combo with very high consistency is at like 50% power.

at the highest highest level, maybe fox, but i promise you that if mango played you with fox and never did anything technical he'd still four-stock you. the techniques are less crucial.
 

G.I._JOE

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DONT GIVE HIM THE STICK!
true falco for sure, it's because falcos game revolves around shine combos, waveland combos, consistent L-canceling of every possible situation and shield pressure so that falco won't get grabbed.

i'd say fox is almost the same technical as falco except for one thing, grabs.
 

Kanelol

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waveshining/wavelanding with falco isn't any harder than it is with Fox

neither is L-cancelling

shield pressure, on the other hand, is roughly 30x harder with Fox
 

Kason Birdman

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honestly... its pretty close but i would have to say falco is more technically demanding than fox. sure fox is harder to do a lot of AT's with. but you can be super camping and super gay with fox and not very technical and still **** ****. falcos metagame is based off of combos that revolve around having good tech skill
 

G.I._JOE

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fox shouldn't shield pressure anyway because his game revolves around the grab so much it's just gg and what kason said falcos game revolves around combos lol while fox is uthrow uair or shine lol fox shield pressure = mind games to grab = death gg
 

bossa nova ♪

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wait wtf is going on here..


fox is THE hardest character to control in the game.

period.

not an opinion.


thought we went over this 10 years ago.
 

Sion

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wait wtf is going on here..


fox is THE hardest character to control in the game.

period.

not an opinion.


thought we went over this 10 years ago.
this was obvious, but you seemed to miss the point of this thread. fox has a good DD and uthrow, falco does not. falco requires more core tech skill to be functional than fox does.
 

bossa nova ♪

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lol dude. with fox like... i'm just talking about like.... ****ing moving.


fox is the hardest to control.... easiest to **** up on spacing and ****. just cuz he can DD and grab doesn't mean he doesn't have to be extremely precise to do so.

falco is pure combo potential. i main the character, the hard part is just reacting to where they're gonna be (easy) and chosing the right move to give urself a good leave (although sometimes with good DI, waveshining out to continue a combo comes down to pure guessing). performing them with the right buttons really isn't that hard. that other **** is the hard part.

fox's physics are the issue. he's in like another universe of speed. he has like the shortest SH and the fastest FF... WTF is that ****. just his FF and coupled with the interval of time you have to perform strings of moves (the moves that DD and uthrow dont just throw out the window) makes him harder to deal with than falco.

falco is simply slower... at his fastest. but you don't even need to go to his fastes, you can play falco slow like a kid who needs Sylvan and still **** face off a shine. that ****** is broken.
 

Sion

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i didn't say fox's DD and grab didn't have to be precise, i just find that it's easier than most of falco's options.

i find that fox's physics work to his advantage and lets him be less technical than falco needs to be. i use both space animals and i find that i need to be more technically on par with my falco to not get shield grabbed/gimped/punished. i nair shine with fox and it can lead to
a. tech chase
b. grab
c. pressure
d. run away and reset
imo a lot less technical than falco's combos. you're entitled to think what you want, though. i'm just saying what i think with the experience i have.
 

Kason Birdman

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i agree with sion.

harder to be fast with falco. fox flows like a mother ****er. but falco's movement can be really awkward at times. its tough to get passed to awkward stiff style of falco because it takes a lot of AT's being consistantly used in order for his movement to not be as awkward and stiff and to be more like fox's movement.
 

mastermoo420

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They don't even SHFFL, LOL. Well, it's dumb to, anyways.

Also, I don't think you can argue the Fox/Falco requires more techskill than the other. Not that one is significantly more dependent but the fact that both of them require different types of techskill.

My friend mains C.Falcon, and he has very little techskill besides SHFFLing, I guess. C.Falcon, overall, is a very non-techskill dependent character and rather relies on **** and mindgames. However, I, as a Fox main, try to use C.Falcon sometimes (because he's hella fun and nobody can deny), but I have problems with fluidity. Why? He's slower so it's hard to just get out of moves and do stuff.

HOWEVER, people have difficulty playing as Fox because of the speed required. Like I said, the techskill required for both characters are different, not more important than the other's. Both spacies are greatly dependent on techskill.
 

Jimbo Slice

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Falco definitely requires more tech skill than Fox does. Out of the top 5 fox mains the only one I've ever seen do something that demanding is Colbol. Lambchops, Shiz, Zhu, and PP all have to do much more difficult things on a regular basis.
 

mastermoo420

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You sure? Another thing I'd like to bring up is the Brawl v. Melee argument. Nobody can really say for sure which is the better game unless they had complete knowledge of both games or were at least #1 in both games consistently AT THE SAME TIME (so, thus, they would be at the height of the metagame). I think it's impossible to argue this for the same reason.

Though I believe Melee > Brawl. lol
 

ViciousEnd

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Feb 5, 2010
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Falco is more technical than Fox for the intents and purposes of achieving the same results, but the overall execution of Fox is tighter AND faster than Falco's.
 

G.L.

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Jul 19, 2010
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me and my friend were talking about this and we thought that fox has the potential to be the most technical but fox has so many different play styles that some are way more technical than others but with falco you have to have a great solid technical game.
 

Kason Birdman

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You sure? Another thing I'd like to bring up is the Brawl v. Melee argument. Nobody can really say for sure which is the better game unless they had complete knowledge of both games or were at least #1 in both games consistently AT THE SAME TIME (so, thus, they would be at the height of the metagame). I think it's impossible to argue this for the same reason.

Though I believe Melee > Brawl. lol
get@m2k

10debateenderz
 

Kason Birdman

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Fox, Falco

ICs

Peach

Other characters
i think i distinctly recall you stating at sau3e's tournament a long while ago that "peach takes no tech skill what so ever" and that she doesn't need to even l-cancel because she can just float cancel everything...


...or something along those lines...

..or maybe it was someone else.
 
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