Is Charging F-Smash Viable?

[Fenriraga]

This is something I've been curious about since Corrin launched. It's not often, if at all, that I have looked at a Smash attack and wondered if fully charging it had any use besides insanely hard reads.

I'm of course talking about the Chainsaw effect from the Yato whIle the Smash is charing. Is there a general consensus on the moves use? I'm really just curious mostly.

 

[Deleted member]

To lock somebody in the fsmash charge after a read ledge getup, probably yeah. Pivoting the move when least expected also has nice usage I'd say.

 

[Fenriraga]

To lock somebody in the fsmash charge after a read ledge getup, probably yeah. Pivoting the move when least expected also has nice usage I'd say.

That does sound about right. Obviously you can't land the tip with it but considering it's a near fully charged Smash attack if used right, it landing in the Sour Spot isn't exactly terrible in that regard.
The obvious problem is that it does leave you vulnerable as all charging Smashes would. Though it has decent shieldstun and pressure, I think.

 

[Deleted member]

That does sound about right. Obviously you can't land the tip with it but considering it's a near fully charged Smash attack if used right, it landing in the Sour Spot isn't exactly terrible in that regard.
The obvious problem is that it does leave you vulnerable as all charging Smashes would. Though it has decent shieldstun and pressure, I think.

Yeah, the move is only really has safety on shield if it's tipped.

 

[ZapCorp]

Biggest problem with it is that fully charging usually allows your opponent to SDI up and out, so you have to let it go early if you see them climbing.

 

[atreyujames]

It can combo off of a Dtilt at low percents for some insane damage. You may need to pivot Fsmash charge, since Dtilt can shift them behind you sometimes. If you see them popping out of the top, tilting the Fsmash up can usually catch them before a lot of characters can interrupt you or it can catch the start of their jump. If they airdodge, well then they've likely just airdodged into the ground and can't punish you properly anyways.

Other than that, it is great at covering get-ups. If you run to the edge and pivot Fsmash charge towards the stage, it covers every option except wait or drop down + aerial. Covers jump, attack, roll, and standard get-up. Otherwise, standing at perfect spacing away and charging can catch roll getup, and releasing the smash can possibly catch jump and standard. The advantage to the second option is that if they wait, you can angle the smash down and hit with the tipper.

Finally, the charge box is a transcendent disjointed hitbox which means it can't clank with anything and isn't a hurtbox. As such, It can catch a lot of horizontal recoveries before they hit Corrin and stop them in their tracks. For example, Fox's tend to love Side B-ing onto the stage, but if you throw out the charge, It'll catch them and lock them in. Other good moves to catch with this; Ike's Quick Draw, Diddy's Monkey Flip, Bowser Jr's Clown Kart, Ganondorf's Flame Choke, Pikachu's Skull Bash and Quick Attack, Luigi's Green Missile, Lucario's Extreme Speed, etc.

 

[Skitrel]

It can combo off of a Dtilt at low percents for some insane damage. You may need to pivot Fsmash charge, since Dtilt can shift them behind you sometimes. If you see them popping out of the top, tilting the Fsmash up can usually catch them before a lot of characters can interrupt you or it can catch the start of their jump. If they airdodge, well then they've likely just airdodged into the ground and can't punish you properly anyways.

I've been thinking about this lately and wondering what cast members this is a more optimal choice for compared to dtilt/utilt/uair combos.

My average for nair>dtilt>etc from 0% is about 52-56% But some of the super fast fallers (Fox) can ground themselves to shield and escape these combos. Currently looking for an alternate effective early percent alternative against the characters that do this.

It would be useful if we could document more accurately what combos work on who and which is more optimal against which cast members. Our combo threads currently are feeling pretty neglected when we're very far from optimising ourselves.

 

[atreyujames]

I've been thinking about this lately and wondering what cast members this is a more optimal choice for compared to dtilt/utilt/uair combos.

My average for nair>dtilt>etc from 0% is about 52-56% But some of the super fast fallers (Fox) can ground themselves to shield and escape these combos. Currently looking for an alternate effective early percent alternative against the characters that do this.

It would be useful if we could document more accurately what combos work on who and which is more optimal against which cast members. Our combo threads currently are feeling pretty neglected when we're very far from optimising ourselves.

While Dtilt can surely lead to more damaging combos than the ~21% that Dtilt -> Fsmash gets you, It is still an option to be considered.

Against the fastfallers, If they sheild, then grab them instead. But if they jab... well you kinda outta luck there since sans D3, Roy, and Megaman, all the fastfallers have pretty fast jabs and can probably jab you before you grab them. It really depends on the skill of your opponent. I can say that after about 10% A great combo on fastfallers is Dtilt x 3 -> Utilt -> SH Nair -> DJ Bair for ~ 50%.

The beauty of Corrin is that most of her/his "combos" are incredibly flexible. The Dilts could've been mixed up with Ftilts and the Nair could've been a Fair or an Uair followed up by... etc etc. The amount of viable strings we have is almost too high to count, and as such, knowing the exact facts of percents and true followups isn't as important as properly observing your opponents reactions and following their DI and movements

 

[Lavani]

The charge is kind of iffy, but useful as long as you're mindful of its flaws. It has an above-average SDI multiplier, low hitstun, and a slow rehit rate, so trying to milk multiple hits out of the charge gives your opponent plenty of opportunity to escape. It's also transcendent (Corrin's only transcendent attack!), meaning projectiles will fly through it but also meaning that it can beat out attacks that the spear arm itself would clank on (certain dash attacks, Fox/Falco sideB, etc), and between it and fsmash tipper you can threaten two areas at once in situations such as covering ledge options or tech chases.

It's a fallible tool but it has its uses, and it's not something any other character has.

 

[Ingoro]

When I'm standing behind somebody and my opponent is in shield dodge, I do a charging FSmash reading the spot dodge quite often.

 

[MockRock]

I think it's generally agreed to be most useful at the ledge, where it catches several get up options and isn't usually punished too hard if avoided. Keep in mind though that it's not all that difficult to SDI out of, so you need to release it pretty much as soon as your opponent gets caught.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

It's actually surprisingly useful, in a handful of situations. Wether it is to eat/breaks someone's shield, catch their landings (assuming they DI towards you and away towards The Tip), cover most getup options at the edge or just randomly start charging in front of them if they have half of their shield worn off. Also do bear in mind, it kills reasonably well, assuming all hits connect and they aren't DI-ing. And even then, it's just extra damage that doesn't stale The Tip's knockback, as far as I'm aware.

So yeah, it's pretty viable.

 

[Pedker]

I'd also like to make a point about the topic of air-dodging this move. Some people say that you can just air-dodge and you won't get hit by the F-Smash, which is true, but only to an extent. If you try it out in training mode, you can see that sometimes it registers as a true combo and sometimes it doesn't. The key is to time it, and to release it just as a tick of damage has been dealt. It's hard to time properly, but it's a good point to be made.

The only problem is SDI, which can get you out just as fast as a jab combo, honestly. Just release it earlier than you'd like if you see them SDI.

In general, it's an amazing tool, but you have to use it carefully and correctly.

 

[Azraekos]

People who either don't know what they're doing,are unfamiliar with competitive level play, or are bad at the game may fall for a full charged F-smash. Most of the time though, I find it better not to bother charging it at all. The fact that you are left open to attack would prevent you from hitting the charged attack, and even if you do hit it, all your getting out of it is a few more damage points on them, some more knock-back, and a little more hit stun(I should clarify, I am not meaning fully charged F-smash). IMO F-smash is a great way to punish a getup, and at the very least functions as a good spacing option to start up a combo from longer range than other characters can, but is not worth charging unless the few situations that will allow you to do so arise.

I could be completely wrong about this though, as I only just started getting into competitive smash.

 

[WondrousMoose]

It's all situational; you can, for example, intercept recoveries with the chainsaw by charging. Fully charging every time is dumb because of SDI and the frames between the final charge and actual smash hitbox.

To answer the title: is charging Fsmash viable? Yes, absolutely. Should it always be done? Of course not. Every one of Corrin's actions has its uses, and that's something that not every fighter can boast (Sheik Uthrow/Bthrow/Dair/Dsmash, anyone?). At the end of the day, it's up to you as the fighter to decide when it is most effective to charge and when to immediately release.

 

[Slice~]

The pivot FSmash charged (as seen in one of MSC's videos) is a pretty handy mixup. Except for ledge release it covers every getup option safely. If they attack, jump or get up regulary, they will get caught in the charge hitbox. You should release early though since SDI'ing out of it is easy.

If they roll, they pretty much end up perfectly at the tip of your lance.
So there's an average 4/6 chance (legde release and simply stalling on the ledge counter it) that you land a solid hit.

 

[gridatttack]

As stated above, only for covering ledge getup options. Sometimes I charge the move against opponents who like to throw themselves to you (short range) so they get caught on it.

But it seems its only works to hit them for a few time, as I've gotten people SDI to the bottom or top and either jump or FF to the ground and shield the Smash attack.