Is anybody else appalled by the weak stage selection?

[toadster101]

"For the Nintendo 3DS version, stages are mainly drawn from other handheld games, whereas the Wii U version features stages inspired by games that appeared on home consoles."

I got so excited when Sakurai said this. Just think of the possibilities! Instead, this seems to only apply to Mario, Zelda, and Pokémon. And worst of all, it seems to only apply to recent handheld titles, primarily 3DS games that they could simply recycle assets from, such as New Super Mario Bros. 2 and Mario Kart 7. Not only that, but this game actually has fewer new stages overall than both Melee and Brawl. This is what people should be complaining about. Not the roster.

Handheld Sonic games:
Sonic the Hedgehog (GG)
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (GG)
Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos (GG)
Sonic Drift (GG)
Sonic the Hedgehog: Triple Trouble (GG)
Sonic Labyrinth (GG)
Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine (GG)
Sonic Drift 2 (GG)
Sonic the Hedgehog Spinball (GG)
Sonic Blast (GG)
Sonic the Hedgehog: Pocket Adventure (NGC)
Sonic Advance (GBA)
Sonic Pinball Party (GBA)
Sonic Advance 2 (GBA)
Sonic Advance 3 (GBA)
Sonic Battle (GBA)
Sonic Rush (DS)
Sonic Rush Adventure (DS)
Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood (DS)
Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing (DS)
Sonic Colors (DS)
Sonic Generations (3DS)
Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed (3DS)
Sonic: Lost World (3DS)

What we get:
Green Hill Zone - Super Smash Bros. Brawl

Handheld Donkey Kong games:
Donkey Kong (GB)
Donkey Kong Land (GB)
Donkey Kong Land 2 (GB)
Donkey Kong Land III (GB)
Donkey Kong Country (GBC)
Donkey Kong Country (GBA)
Mario vs. Donkey Kong* (GBA)
Donkey Kong Country 2 (GBA)
DK: King of Swing (GBA)
Donkey Kong Country 3 (GBA)
Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis* (DS)
DK Jungle Climber (DS)
Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem* (DS)
Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D (3DS)

What we get:
Jungle Japes - Super Smash Bros. Melee (2nd time)

*the Mario vs. Donkey Kong games count because the Pauline trophy has a DK series emblem

Handheld Kirby games:
Kirby's Dream Land (GB)
Kirby's Pinball Land (GB)
Kirby's Dream Land 2 (GB)
Kirby's Block Ball (GB)
Kirby's Star Stacker (GB)
Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble (GBC)
Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land (GBA)
Kirby & the Amazing Mirror (GBA)
Kirby: Canvas Curse (DS)
Kirby: Squeak Squad (DS)
Kirby Super Star Ultra (DS)
Kirby Mass Attack (DS)
Kirby: Triple Deluxe (3DS)

What we get:
A new stage based on Kirby's Dream Land

Handheld Wario games:
Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 (GB)
Virtual Boy Wario Land (VB)
Wario Land II (GBC)
Wario Land 3 (GBC)
Wario Land 4 (GBA)
WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$ (GBA)
WarioWare: Twisted! (GBA)
WarioWare: Touched! (DS)
Wario: Master of Disguise (DS)
WarioWare D.I.Y. (DS)

What we get:
WarioWare, Inc. - Super Smash Bros. Brawl

Handheld Yoshi games:
Yoshi (GB)
Yoshi's Cookie (GB)
Tetris Attack (GB)
Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 (GBA)
Yoshi Topsy-Turvy (GBA)
Yoshi Touch & Go (DS)
Yoshi's Island DS (DS)
Yoshi's New Island (3DS)

What we get:
Yoshi's Island - Super Smash Bros. Brawl

Handheld Metroid games:
Metroid II: Return of Samus (GB)
Metroid Fusion (GBA)
Metroid: Zero Mission (GBA)
Metroid Prime: Hunters (DS)
Metroid Prime Pinball (DS)

What we get:
Brinstar - Super Smash Bros. Melee (2nd time)

Handheld Star Fox games:
Star Fox Command (DS)
Star Fox 64 3D (3DS)

What we get:
Corneria - Super Smash Bros. Melee (2nd time)

 

[Reila]

I am happy with the new stages, most of them look really nice, but at the same time the choice for returning stages is terrible, not to mention we are not getting new Metroid, Donkey Kong and Sonic stages. Something tells me the reason the stage selection is mediocre is because they want to release more stages via DLC, which is awful... but I would totally buy day 1.

 

[Niala]

What, were you expecting a new stage for every series present in smash in both versions of the game?

 

[Reila]

What, were you expecting a new stage for every series present in smash in both versions of the game?

Why would anyone NOT expect new stages for most series present in Smash Bros in both versions?

I'm not going to be too critical of the 3DS version, i'm considering it the beta for the Wii U version.

I'm hoping for at least one new stage per franchise on the Wii U version, that's by far enough.

Hoping to see a few of my favourites return as well.

You are going to be disappointed then and no, the 3DS version is not a beta for the Wii U version. If anything, the Wii U version is just an extra.

 

[ErenJager]

I'm not going to be too critical of the 3DS version, i'm considering it the beta for the Wii U version.

I'm hoping for at least one new stage per franchise on the Wii U version, that's by far enough.

Hoping to see a few of my favourites return as well.

 

[toadster101]

What, were you expecting a new stage for every series present in smash in both versions of the game?

For franchises that have portable heritage, you better believe it. The lack of a new Wario stage is borderline insulting, given his history as a handheld character. I guess DLC is our only hope now. :/

 

[TerminalMontage]

I do find it a little weird, but I was probably going to mostly play the Final Destination version of every stage, so to me it isn't a big deal.

 

[DairunCates]

What, were you expecting a new stage for every series present in smash in both versions of the game?

I'm not sure if, in retrospect, it'd be reasonable to expect just A stage for every character. Provided the leak is 100% real, we have a minimum of 49 playable characters. It's pretty obvious that, to fit this, some character have to share a stage or two. Furthermore, if you made absolutely every stage new, you'd have just as many people complaining about the complete lack of returning stages. So, some will have to get recycled like they've been here.

Also, it's worth noting that we know VERY little about the stages that are gonna be present in the Wii U version. The Wii U and 3DS version share very little stages in common. So, it'll be interesting to see what we get there.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For franchises that have portable heritage, you better believe it. The lack of a new Wario stage is borderline insulting, given his history as a handheld character. I guess DLC is our only hope now. :/

To be fair, Wario never got any Wario Land representation in Brawl either. Sakurai must have a thing against Wario Land if he's only using WarioWare references.

 

[Captain Norris]

What, were you expecting a new stage for every series present in smash in both versions of the game?

Honestly, I was. They could just have a second stage for past stages.

 

[GmanSir]

What are you trying to imply with the GB Kirby's Dream Land stage?

 

[KokiriKory]

Appalled is a strong word, but im disappointed with the mario imbalance and the reliance of returning stages.

But many of the new stages are just awesome. Gaur plains and kirbys dreamland look awesome

 

[FlaygletheBagel]

Yeah, there's a definite lack of new stages and a wealth of returning ones on the 3DS version, but I'm not too worried about it. Something tells me DLC will be a definite thing to expect (MK8 made good use of it, so I have confidence in Smash doing well with it too). Stages will probably be part of that package.

 

[Niala]

Why would anyone NOT expect new stages for most series present in Smash Bros in both versions?

You are going to be disappointed then and no, the 3DS version is not a beta for the Wii U version. If anything, the Wii U version is just an extra.

That's a little optimistic if you ask me. It seems incredibly unrealistic to expect them to make something like 25 new stages per version of the game. Even in Brawl, we only got something like 30 new stages. And that's counting stuff like Battlefield and FD.

If you're splitting a game in two, it stands to reason some amount of the content will have to be shared. Stages totals appears to be one of those things, as it should be and as it should have been expected to be.

 

[LF2K]

It is a bit lame that some franchises got their past stages recycled. But the new stages look like they can make up for it.

 

[Mutsukki]

I sttill think this is not all that terrible. I'd wager that franchises that did not get new stages here will get them on the Wii U. Star Fox is already confirmed for this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is pretty much directly in line with my expectations in terms of content selection, and more of the stages look to be high quality competitive stages than I expected at the start. Smash 4 will definitely have more new stages than Brawl; they're just divided between two versions, and it really should have been obvious that's how it was going to be from the very start (to be very clear, if there were only one version of smash 4, I think it would have had around 50 stages so we get more total stages this way just not double). How could I possibly be disappointed?

Either way, I feel confident we can easily reach good, double digit numbers of legal stages with this even making the more stubborn people happy, and we have a huge diversity too. Like here's my running tabs on stage legality:

Strongly legal:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Rainbow Road
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Tortimer's Island

Reasonably Legal:

Paper Mario
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Corneria
Reset Bomb Forest
Tomodachi Life
PictoChat
Pac Maze

Very Likely Not Legal:

Super Mario 3d Land
Golden Plains
Mushroomy Kingdom
Gerudo Valley
Spirit Train
N's Castle
Kirby's Dream Land
WarioWare
Distant Planet
Boxing Ring
Living Room
Find Mii
Balloon Fight
Flat Zone 2
Gaur Plains
Wily's Castle
Green Hill Zone

Totally Unknown:

New F-Zero Stage
Mysterious Pink Stage (Mother themed?)
Last Stage to Unlock?

That looks... pretty good to me?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I really don't care.

 

[Beatness]

Well, we still haven't seen some stages. So maybe they're hiding the ones that will really stick out .

Honestly, I'm just happy that there's finally a Paper Mario stage.

 

[Sehnsucht]

I suspect that there might be inverse distribution of new and classic stages between systems, in regards to certain franchises. Compare the following:

Metroid = Pyrosphere VS Brinstar
Star Fox = Great Fox VS Corneria
Pikmin = Garden of Hope VS Distant Planet
Sonic = Windy Hill VS Green Hill Zone
Kirby = Halberd VS Dream Land (Gameboy Stage)

It seems that if a series gets a classic stage one system, it has a chance of getting an exclusive stage on the other. As a result, the Wii U stage roster could have something like this:

DK = DKCR stage VS Jungle Japes
F-Zero = Port Town Aero Dive VS SNES Mute City
Mother = Onett or New Pork VS Magicant
Yoshi = New stage? VS Yoshi's Island
Wario = New stage? VS WarioWare Inc.

This inverse-parallel principle doesn't seem to apply to the Big Ones (Mario, Zelda, Pokemon), nor to the "new" series (Animal Crossing, Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, etc.). Some stages are shared, but I suppose that's only fair.

So my suspicion is that, in order to alleviate the stage workload, they adopted this tit-for-tat approach. Instead of creating 60- something unique stages from the ground-up, they used classic stages to lessen the workload across both systems (stage-sharing, like in Wily's Castle, would also help).

Basically, each system has 5 shared stages (e.g. Boxing Ring), 19 system-exclusive (i.e. "brand new") stages, and 10 classic stages (from Melee/Brawl). When I look at things in this way, the 3DS stage roster seems much more palatable.

You could take umbrage with how they only made 40 new stages instead of 68, but when you remember the immense workload (50 characters, two systems, modes, game balance, etc. etc.), it's understandable that compromises would need to be made.


EDIT: I hear that Pictochat may be a new Pictochat (i.e. "Pictochat 2"). If it is a new stage, then the cross-system distribution is 5-20-9; if it's the one from Brawl, the distribution is 5-19-10.

 

[Gabukin]

I believe most of the new stages will be shown off in the wii u version.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

We got plenty stages in 3DS but I agree, it's bit strange that a 9 of these are still returning mishmash from Brawl's past stages. I really wanted to see a new Kirby-stage or Yoshi's Island-stage. Also still gotta skip over Wario Land just to bring in totally broken minigame fest that is WarioWare (unless bonuses from clearing the minigames aren't gonna be such a gamebreaker anymore)

 

[CroonerMike]

I hear crying can make things change.

no, but seriously I do not care at all.

 

[Captain Norris]

This is pretty much directly in line with my expectations in terms of content selection, and more of the stages look to be high quality competitive stages than I expected at the start. Smash 4 will definitely have more new stages than Brawl; they're just divided between two versions, and it really should have been obvious that's how it was going to be from the very start (to be very clear, if there were only one version of smash 4, I think it would have had around 50 stages so we get more total stages this way just not double). How could I possibly be disappointed?

Either way, I feel confident we can easily reach good, double digit numbers of legal stages with this even making the more stubborn people happy, and we have a huge diversity too. Like here's my running tabs on stage legality:

Strongly legal:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Rainbow Road
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Tortimer's Island

Reasonably Legal:

Paper Mario
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Corneria
Reset Bomb Forest
Tomodachi Life
PictoChat
Pac Maze

Very Likely Not Legal:

Super Mario 3d Land
Golden Plains
Mushroomy Kingdom
Gerudo Valley
Spirit Train
N's Castle
Kirby's Dream Land
WarioWare
Distant Planet
Boxing Ring
Living Room
Find Mii
Balloon Fight
Flat Zone 2
Gaur Plains
Wily's Castle
Green Hill Zone

Totally Unknown:

New F-Zero Stage
Mysterious Pink Stage (Mother themed?)
Last Stage to Unlock?
That looks... pretty good to me?

(I personally think we should still test walk-offs. Just in case. But that is just me)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

(I personally think we should still test walk-offs. Just in case. But that is just me)

I pretty much agree and would go so far as to say they're probably not that bad, but I don't think this is a battle we can win. My main focus is on "legal means leagal means legal for game one" as well so there's that, and that position, while I feel helpful for the game, certainly does not make defending walk-offs any easier.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I do find it a little weird, but I was probably going to mostly play the Final Destination version of every stage, so to me it isn't a big deal.

This is probably what I'll be doing too.

 

[Captain Norris]

I pretty much agree and would go so far as to say they're probably not that bad, but I don't think this is a battle we can win. My main focus is on "legal means leagal means legal for game one" as well so there's that, and that position, while I feel helpful for the game, certainly does not make defending walk-offs any easier.

I think Walk-offs were only truly terrible in Melee. I think we should go through testing every stage and then ban them throughout the span of a year.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Also, if both systems indeed have the same stage number (34), then the Wii U still has 14 stages waiting to be revealed/leaked/etc.

Of these, five are new Wii U-exclusive stages, and nine are classic stages. So there will be plenty of Wii U stages to keep us sated over the next 2-3 months prior to the Smash U launch.

 

[Khao]

Yes.

Most of the new stages are not too exciting, they're mostly either autoscrollers which I ****ing hate by default, have walk-off edges which are dumb and mess up the game, or are one of those Delfino-style platform that moves around a big area with random stops inbetween. (Halberd is the only stage that's ever pulled it off decently in my opinion.)

The only stages (out of the new ones) I can see myself playing at often are Arena Ferox, Wily's Castle, and the Reset Bomb Forest. And yes, there's too many returning stages for my liking, wouldn't be a problem except some franchises use that instead of getting a new stage.

Hopefully the Wii U will get a better selection. There's already more stages that I like better, so things are looking good.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It is a bit lame that some franchises got their past stages recycled. But the new stages look like they can make up for it.

Some franchises would have a huge problem getting a new stage though. The EarthBound / Mother franchise is one big example, as it's apparently dead.

 

[CodeBlue_]

(I personally think we should still test walk-offs. Just in case. But that is just me)

We have tested walk-offs in two games now. They are not only broken (camping at the edges is severally encouraged, balance from specific knockback of moves is thrown out since the blast lines are way too close)but remove the ledge mechanic from the game. Counterpicks should not remove the concept of edgeguarding and recovering, as these are crucial to the elements of Smash.

With walkoffs, you are in nature changing the way the game is played in a way that disregards a key part of certain character's movesets and balancing. This isn't just Brawl Diddy getting a slight edge with FD's removal of platforms that could interrupt his bananas (as such FD would be diddy's counterpick stage). This is Little Mac being able to take a stock off someone at 40% while at the same time not having to worry about his recovery. That is a huge advantage.

Tortimer's Island should be banned universally from tournaments.

 

[Captain Norris]

We have tested walk-offs in two games now. They are not only broken (camping at the edges is severally encouraged, balance from specific knockback of moves is thrown out since the blast lines are way too close)but remove the ledge mechanic from the game. Counterpicks should not remove the concept of edgeguarding and recovering, as these are crucial to the elements of Smash.

With walkoffs, you are in nature changing the way the game is played in a way that disregards a key part of certain character's movesets and balancing. This isn't just Brawl Diddy getting a slight edge with FD's removal of platforms that could interrupt his bananas (as such FD would be diddy's counterpick stage). This is Little Mac being able to take a stock off someone at 40% while at the same time not having to worry about his recovery. That is a huge advantage.

Tortimer's Island should be banned universally from tournaments.

Camping is only used by the newcomers to the scene. Many times walkoffs did not promote camping to expirienced players.
This is a new game with new mehcanics and new changes and new balances. Little Mac is strong, but he is frail, and if he is in the air, he will have problems. Anyway, if you are against a little Mac player, you would be counter picking to a non walkoff stage.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think Walk-offs were only truly terrible in Melee. I think we should go through testing every stage and then ban them throughout the span of a year.

To be fair, not a lot of the 3DS walk-off stages look any good anyway. Mushroomy Kingdom in Brawl scrolled really fast and had a low ceiling, but it could be okay if that was changed? Boxing Ring and Living Room are both super bad stages just obviously, and Gaur Plains looks like a huge campfest. I have little hope for 3d Land as well; it looks pretty crazy. Golden Plains looks like a decent stage (the coin mechanic is very tame; I played on it at Best Buy), and Distant Planet is a slow paced but not broken stage as we know from Brawl. Kirby Dream Land may or may not be any good walk-off aside; we know very little about it.

Tortimer's Island should be banned universally from tournaments.

Why? The stage is super tame with all possible permutations. It's really not a big deal that it's randomly generated; you don't deserve an advantage in game one, and you counterpick it at your own risk.

 

[Captain Norris]

To be fair, not a lot of the 3DS walk-off stages look any good anyway. Mushroomy Kingdom in Brawl scrolled really fast and had a low ceiling, but it could be okay if that was changed? Boxing Ring and Living Room are both super bad stages just obviously, and Gaur Plains looks like a huge campfest. I have little hope for 3d Land as well; it looks pretty crazy. Golden Plains looks like a decent stage (the coin mechanic is very tame; I played on it at Best Buy), and Distant Planet is a slow paced but not broken stage as we know from Brawl. Kirby Dream Land may or may not be any good walk-off aside; we know very little about it.

I agree. I don't think Mushroomy Kingdom should ever be legal though lol. I was also referring to walkoffs that are appearing in the Wii U Version also. I mean, the Fire Emblem stage (forgot its name) wouldn't even be that terrible if we tested walk offs. The Galaxy stage would be iffy though.

Why? The stage is super tame with all possible permutations. It's really not a big deal that it's randomly generated; you don't deserve an advantage in game one, and you counterpick it at your own risk.

Plus, swimming is gone, so... it really isn't a walk off technically.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I don't care too much honestly. There's usually only a few stages I constantly play in Smash games anyway.

 

[CodeBlue_]

Camping is only used by the newcomers to the scene. Many times walkoffs did not promote camping to expirienced players.
This is a new game with new mehcanics and new changes and new balances. Little Mac is strong, but he is frail, and if he is in the air, he will have problems. Anyway, if you are against a little Mac player, you would be counter picking to a non walkoff stage.

Walk-offs do promote camping at all levels of play; what are you talking about? If I stay near the ledge, depending on the character, I can shield grab you if you attempt to hit me and proceed to back throw you to the blast line.

When it comes to walk-offs the risk of getting KO'd by the side blast lines makes the character that is camping on the ledge become rewarded, as the approaching player risks getting KO'd if the opposing played rolls or back throws him to the ledge. It is really unsafe to approach someone if you are that close to the blast line. Virtually any hit at mid percentages has the potential of KO'ing you.

I don't understand what you mean by new mechanics and balances. They have little to do with how skewed a stage can become for certain characters. Him having poor aerial options has nothing to do with the fact that he can KO people at ridiculous percentages and doesn't have to recover (allowing him to disregard that specific weakness that he has).

To your second point, I'm talking about when Little Mac counterpicks you to that stage. It gives him a huge advantage and forces you to ban the stage in every situation, allowing him to counterpick to a stage that, if the walk-off stage didn't exist, you could have banned instead of it.

 

[Captain Norris]

Fair enough. There are ways around walk off camping though. It isn't like it is impossible to overcome like some (not necessarily you) think. I still think they should be tested to some degree, but hey, I don't want either of us to get any more salty here. Peace?

 

[TheTuninator]

I was really hoping for Wars to get a stage on 3DS, at the very least, given Sakurai's emphasis on repping handheld franchises with 3DS stages. So much for that, sadly.

 

[Solarman]

The fact that we have 3 scrolling stages that are all Mario makes me wanna go vomit.

 

[Jae]

I like most of the 3DS stages but I am quite disappointed that they're recycling mediocre past stages; Jungle Japes and Brinstar and bringing back what I personally find to be the worst stage in all of Smash; Mushroomy Kingdom.

I'm more miffed that DK, Wario and Metroid aren't getting new stages though, while Mario gets a buncha new stages (but it makes sense) but maybe there will be some kind of DLC to make up for that.