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Intelligent Discussion of Games Knowledge

CT Chia

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I'm bored, and most of the threads in the Light House forum all seem to pretty much be game specific. What about games in general? Whether it be the industry, news, the systems, or more. Or even this, how about anyone try to best me in a challenge of games knowledge lol. I know more than anyone else I know of, and perhaps we could spark a good discussion or debate here.
 

CT Chia

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What would you say is the first game to really push the envelope in the "Are video games art?" debate?
hmmmm thats a tough one. i can think of plenty of examples but thinking of the earliest one... i mean obviously some level of graphics is required (obviously graphics arent everything), but im having trouble trying to think of some early 16 bit game that really tried to go for the more artistic approach. you also have to think of what kind of art your going for. you can think of story as more of an artistic approach, looking at the meaning of artistic as a stylized approach to expressing ones self, in which case you can look at plenty of final fantasy games, mainly starting with vii, but even delving into some earlier ones.

as for fresh artistic style, these are the games like rez, shadow of the collosus, killer 7, katamari damacy and so on. 3d was really one of the big things to push this, but it still wasnt seen much in the playstation and n64 era as developers were still getting used to using 3d graphics, so they needed to become comfortable before they tried radical new ideas. so while there could have been some attempts early on, such as parappa the rapper, the flood of video games as art really started last gen, which is when the topic was released notice on a mainstream view.

as i already mentioned some above, the biggest games to really push this is shadow of the collosus, killer 7, katamari damacy, rez, and zelda: wind waker. however its tough to say that there was one time where it all of a sudden became obvious that video games can be art, as its more of a gradual improvement over time. even recently weve had games like twilight princess which i think bring art similar to the way that shadow of the collosus did, but still up'ed the bar.
 

RoyalRook

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I love the ideas you are trying to present in your post, but here is the thing: we can't have a definitely discussion about gaming and art, without differentiate what is art and what is gaming. For example: Tetris thrives on pure game play, or abstract block arts? Which world was more beautiful? Mass Effect or Super Mario Galaxy. But most importantly: If most game could never delivery or present the same experience or performance to every gamer that was shown, then could video game ever become art in the first place? Or can I even dare to say that video game could become art, only if we were watching a professional player playing it for us?
 

digitalmaster287

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What is hard about that question is the definition of "art". Is a game art because it has stunning graphics that look incredibly realistic or is it about the underlying meaning of a game that the entire game brings to the surface. Each person would have a different answer to this question because art is simply not something with a universal definition and there aren't any real set characteristics that would separate art from just a pretty picture.
 

greenblob

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When discussing video games as an art form, I think it's important to have something that's uniquely video game-y. Sure, cinematic cutscenes and engaging plots can be very artistic, but by themselves, they're not exactly unique to video games. Above all, video game as an art should focus on the aesthetic experience.

Also, there are many branches that this discussion could go in. You could discuss the exploration/environmental elements, which would include graphics, visual style, layout, and progression. Or you could discuss strategy/depth (think Chess). And I'm pretty sure there are many more things that you could look into.
 

knightzy

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when you said "but it still wasnt seen much in the playstation and n64 era " there was some artistcly great games for example: NiGHTS for sega saturn was visulally spectatuler for it's time.
 

Weed

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I believe the Half Life games are works of art themselves, with no cutscenes, beautiful visuals (minus HL1), and being one of the very few games to give the illusion that you are the actual character, by having a successful story revolving around a silent protagonist.

I could go on about graphics, or any other technical prowesses the games might contain, but that leaves very little to be discussed as "art", seeing as graphics are improving every day, quite opposite to art.

This is all IMO, obviously.
Thoughts?
 

knightzy

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i think we need to go away from the art side of things.. how asbout hardware? or game storylines.game art is usally last thing to do.
 

Bendu

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In my opinion games as art cannot be relegated simply to visuals.

In the same way that movies are art not just for their visuals but for the story and the craftsmanship that went into it.

As such I have a feeling it's probably something from around the 16 bit era. You can have very "artistic" visuals with 16 bit graphics. And story become much more prominent in the 16 bit era as well.

As a matter of fact, maybe even some late games in the 8-bit era. Also mostly Nintendo games are what I can think of. Look at Metroid, even in its original form it was dark and foreboding and atmospheric and you can't forget the music.

Even though you might know a lot about trivia, you're misinterpreting the phrase "games as art" rather than the literal "art direction" of a project, it's referring ot the entire medium as an art form. So the question of hte first game as art is in reference to the first video game with real artistic merit.
 

CT Chia

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we can talk about anything, not just art, though i like where it was going.

i accecpt ye challenge.
cool lol. i say have other people ask various questions and see our responses. and we see who got the questions more right i guess lol. and honor system for not looking at others answers or online for inffo.
 

vZakat

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I want in on the video game knowledge battle. :cool:

A video game being artistic can be many things because art in itself has many outlets. If you mean art as in cinematic, a game like metal gear solid is pretty high on the list of influence for artistic games.

As ChiboSempai said earlier, the final fantasy series could be considered influential as far as art being story, and plot, similar to books being art.

Visuals in a game are most definitely artist. With each new generation of game consoles, there are games with visual artistry. The only game I can think of at the time that's visually creative is Okami. *shrugs*

hehe i would like to talk about the sega saturn or the sega dreamcast. yeah i suppose so.
What should we talk about them? Some of the best games on the systems? Why'd they die out?
 

vZakat

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There are two reasons that both the saturn and dreamcast did not do well.

First is their early release. Both of them were the first console of their generation (not a 100% sure if the saturn was or not). The dreamcast was hurt more by this. If the dreamcast was put of for six months or so, they might have been able to put in a dvd drive. The PS2 did well in japan because it was a dvd player as well as a game system (PS3 not having the same luck, lol).

Second is their lack of strong titles at launch. Both of them didn't have consistently good games. This effected the saturn greatly. The only big launch game for the saturn I can think of is Virtua fighter 2 (or was it 3) which is much bigger in japan than in the states or europe. Also some of the other big hitting games that the saturn had were also on the PSX (Resident Evil, Tomb Raider) but the PSX seemed to get better deals out of the companies (Resident Evil Director's Cut).

Well that's what I think anyways.
 

knightzy

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very good.looking at the saturn this is my answer,the saturn did not have good games because of the duel prossecer,which is used in all this gen's machines because of this devalopers were having trobules with the duel prossecer,thus not many games=sega discontiuing the saturn because of the lack of third party support=waste of money+time.

As of the dreamcast well the lack of support and games on the saturn caused sega to lose there reputation=less buying thr dreamcast=less third party support=sega dieing becuase of the sony third party slege hammer=sega drop out.

In my opinon sega allways have been a decade ahead of themsevles....
 

CT Chia

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both systems launched the first in their generation, but this really wasnt too much of a problem for the dreamcast. for the saturn, it was announced and released way too fast, and rushed to market garnering the crazy price tag it held. it was rushed so much that only a single title launched with the system in the US, virtua fighter. while the game was decent, that was rushed as well as a more complete version had to be released later. to make things worse down the line, the saturn was a pain to develop for. you may have heard of the complexities of making games for systems today with multi core processors, but the saturn had two different processors, one for 2d, and one for 3d. even though this made it extremely difficult to develop for, in a sense it made the saturn the most powerful overall of the generation (PS and N64), especially when it comes to 2d graphics, which the n64 could barely do as it required everything to be done on 3d textures (hence the low resolution text in every game).

the saturn would have done much better if they had waited it out and planned a real launch, and perhaps had some more quality titles. there was never a new platforming sonic title released for the system, so gamers had to fall back on virtua fighter, bug, the few sonic titles that did make it, and nights.

the dreamcast had everything it needed for it to go right, and theres still never an exact pinpoint answer as to why the system failed. the dreamcast did launch early, but they were actually ready for once. the launch lineup was actually quite impressive with games like sonic adventure, ready2rumble boxing, powerstone, and more. if anything, i would call it a stronger launch lineup than the 360 or ps3. one thing that really hurt the system was that ps2 had a dvd player, which was the cheapest dvd player on the market, that also played games. however could it be the only reason? many would now think its not as when sony is trying the same strategy with blu ray, its not working like it did last time. dreamcast is still considered a good system and has plenty of games that hardcore games still play to this day like soul calibur. while the dvd debacle hurt, it wasnt enough to take away that the dreamcast had great games, a decent launch price, the first system with online play, and more. no one will ever know exactly why the dreamcast failed, however theres a good chance it was just due to problems internally with the company, especially when the president of sega's US branch resigned.
 

Trioptical

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Personally, I think that video games as art starts when we start recognizing them as such.

Look at other forms of art. We consider them so because they reflect cultures, have visual appeal, can be analyzed, etc. Games already do all of those things. Why aren't they art? Because we don't think of them as art.

How do I know this? Each time someone tries to write an interpretation of a game beyond what's on the surface, he or she is usually mocked in the responses. "It's just a game." Blah blah blah, you get the picture. Anyone read the psychology take on Silent Hill? What about the feminist nature of Portal? Did you see the responses to those?

Years from now, we'll look at Pac-Man and say, "Due to their limited technology, Pac-Man is made up of crude geometric shapes and simple primary colors, but in the late 20th Century, this movement away from shooting and racing attracted millions to this piece of interactive art." It'll happen. We just aren't there yet.
 

knightzy

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ok another good point ChiboSempai,very good now i would like to start companys in general in order:
Atari,sega,nintendo,sony,microsoft,snk and any arcade boards or things i missed,so we will start with atari[this thred is building momentem do not stop untill we have this going well.]

discuss with me!
 

CT Chia

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atari? bleh lol
pretty much the only topic i dont like discussion about is the early age of gaming. i feel that games really hadnt reached their potential yet in the home market, and it was hard to call them video games. it was more like an interactive television lol, which i guess is video games in a nutshell. but i guess this could bring up, when is a video game considered a video game? i mean atari games certainly count, but not truly. they were too overly simplified because of limited hardware compared to arcades.
 

CT Chia

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the genesis is where i started. sure i played NES here and there, but the genesis was the first system I owned with the sonic 2 bundle and what essentially started making sonic my fav vid game character (except for maybe knux lol, but close enough). the nes was great, but i found myself bored with a lot of games back in the day except for the aaa titles like mario, mario 3, duck hunt, and so on. the genesis was the first system where i found the most games i enjoyed, and i ended up owning i think 18 games by the time i purchased my last game, which is the third most amount of games i own for a system, which is behind n64, which is behind the cube.

i also enjoyed the new technology it brought such as more controllers (even ones like the mouse with wacky worlds), sega channel (even though inever owned it lol), and lock on technology with things like game genie or sonic n knuckles. the games were faster and brighter than the soon coming snes, and was my favorite system for a long time.
 

knightzy

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i never had a genenis{megadrive} i play the emulator though.. fun as.... i have all the emulators that are LEGAL nes-n64,sms-dreamcast,ps,turbografix,2600-jaguar etc
yes the genenis[megadrive] had alot of peperials did'nt it? the snes used satalite connection.
 

LordLocke

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There are basically two real arguments that tend to come up in the Games as Art debate:

1) The first is the one that defenders of other mediums, like Roger Ebert, use- Art is something as defined by it's creator, which excludes any medium that allows viewer participation in experiencing it in any method other then observation. While a little short sighted, it's easy to see where Ebert is coming from, since Video Games would BE the first real surviving artistic medium that's based around viewer participation. Of course, the smartass counter-arguement would be that the saying 'art is in the eye of the beholder' and that whatever it's made OF doesn't matter as much as what is made of it. Mostly, people are just going to have to agree to disagree here, since it's a line in the sand nobody's ever really had to try and draw before.

2) The second one is a little more narrow-minded, in that video games have yet to reach the threshold where they can move people like other forms of art. This is, of course, a load of bunk, since most people can probably think of one or two moments at laest where a game has made them step back and really feels something beyond simple achievement for completion- whether we're talking about emotional movement from a story or the awe factor of simple experiance.

But this does flow well into the next topic...

2) Games and our corruptable youth: I do think violent video games can influence a kid's behavior... in the same way violent TV, violent movies, and what-not can.

Parents tend not to pay attention to what their kid is playing, and a child raised with Grand Theft Auto without ever being told why what they're doing is wrong barring a warning meter isn't going to grasp things the same way the kid that plays that kind of game with their parents, being constantly reaffirmed that what they're doing in the game is wrong, and their characters are NOT the good guys. I wouldn't ever let a child of mine touch a GTA until their teenage years myself, but if I were going to, you'd better believe I'd be paying attention and hammering life lessons of right and wrong into the kid at the same time.

Never stop taking an interest in what your kid is doing, even if it's something that doesn't interest you. That's an easy way to lead to a bad end.

Sega's Mighty Failure. We all know why the Saturn died. Price point, inferior software, Sony's little wondersystem hitting ALL the right notes quickly.

The Dreamcast is a very different beast. It came out cheap. It had probably the best console launch ever (Sonic Adventure + Power Stone + SOUL CALIBER > any other console first-day offerings ever) with six very strong following months. It got a bevy of support early, from both small and large developers. It had the first widely-successful console online service. So... why did it fail?

Firstly, from a competition standpoint- a combination of bad reputation (The Saturn was a colossal fail), poor advertizing, and simple bad luck. It did ok for itself, mostly while everyone was waiting for the next big thing to hit. And when it did, the waves it sent out on splashdown overturned Sega's S.S. Minnow. Everyone- from consumers to developers- jumped ship to the PS2 (Which for the first 12 months was a barren wasteland devoid of fun and awesome) and Sega couldn't deploy enough bilge pumps to save it from going over. When the Cube and X-Box joined in, there wasn't enough room for a four-man market, and Sega's already-ailing Dreamcast was given the boot.

The other problem is a less optimistic view of the Dreamcast's supporters in the Dreamcast's heavy piracy issue. The system was dirt easy to cheat, since it read CD-ROMS and had a software-based lockout. This probably really dug into the sales of games- especially the niche titles the Dreamcast was living off of later, since mostly the people who actually go out and buy those titles are also internet-savvy enough to learn that even without modding, they could get a burn of it and play it with zero hassle. While not a huge dent for games like Sonic Adventure 2 and Sega's other frontline offerings, it ripped into niche titles like Capcom's fighters, Bangai-O, and other games which weren't going to see more then 50k in sales, and saw far less when even two to five thoursand of those people were downloading those games from the net instead.
 

knightzy

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the saturn inferior software????wtf? it had duel prossesing units for god's sake,it did'nt get any software devalopment because of this.....dreamcast?yeah right answer lol **** those stupid pirates.....ok next??? i want you to have a go with nintendo.
 

LordLocke

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the saturn inferior software????wtf? it had duel prossesing units for god's sake,it did'nt get any software devalopment because of this.....dreamcast?yeah right answer lol **** those stupid pirates.....ok next??? i want you to have a go with nintendo.
Inferior SOFTWARE, son. It's hardware was fine. A little underpowered here, a little overpowered there, but fine.

But the Saturn usually got the crummier ports, and definately got the short end of the stick in terms of system exclusives.
 

#HBC | marshy

wanted for 3rd degree swag
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About the original question, Comix Zone, Yoshi's Island, and Paper Mario were all pretty interesting when they came out.
 

S2

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The Saturn's hardware wasn't "inferior" so much as it was simply impractical. Its dual processors made it hard to program for. While Playstation and N64 were hyping up 3D, Saturn was a system that handled 2D vastly superior to any other console but had 3D capabilities just a little bit behind the PSX.

Another problem was simply that Sega USA dropped the ball on so many occasions. Saturn had a lot of awesome exclusives or perfect arcade ports that the US simply never recieved. Things like perfect ports of Xmen vs. Street Fighter, MvSF, SFA3, Vampire Saviour, made Saturn a fan favorite amongst importers and 2D fighting fanatics.

To this day the only way to get a console perfect port of XvSF is Saturn (unless you are using roms).

Bad PSX ports were mainly due to the dual processors being hard to program for. So anything that started on PSX and made its way to Saturn usually turned out mediocre.

Saturn remains one of the few systems where you have to own the actual hardware, as its far too hard to emulate. Even the games you do see from Saturn, usually aren't truely Saturn emulations. Take Sonic R for example. If you see this on a re-release, its not the Saturn version - but an emulation of the PC port made when the Saturn version came out. You'll find this is true for nearly every Saturn title as well.

A select few games did get full ports to PS2, but not a lot. Anything that did is a full release due to the work it takes to port from Saturn.

That's a good rule of thumb actually. A full release of a Saturn game on another console is most likely a port, a Saturn game in a retro collection is most likely an emu of the PC version of a port, and almost no game is an emulated version of the Saturn version.

Saturn had its share of great games, but without re-releases, many are only available on Ebay... usually for more money than a curious consumer wants to pay.
 

knightzy

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well yeah what he said heres hoping for origanal copys on vc,nintendo have a good rep with sega........well maybe they both just want to kill sony but ya know......NiGHTS for vc!
 

S2

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Nights can't come out for VC simply based on the amount of space it'd take up.

The best thing we can do is to annoy Sega about the PS2 port. In case people didn't know, Sega is quitely releasing the Original Nights and Christmas Nights in a package on PS2. BUT ONLY IN JAPAN.

This is travesty. Sega of America must be emailed, petitions must be made.
 

knightzy

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how about a sd card or a external?????thats where your saves should be.....ps2??? **** i want it on wii well theres still hope......maybe they can compress it for vc.....well at least the new one is a wii only game.....anything other questions???????
 
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