Info about the shellguard in Up Smash...

[Raiden mk-II]

To me, the shellguard on Bowser's Up Smash is hard to get a good feel of. Specifically, I don't know why when the autoguard activates, Bowser is intangible at some times, and tangible in others.

I've been able to go by unscathed from Shulk's annoying counter, for example, when I use Up Smash on him. Other times, I still get hit by it when the shellguard activates his counter. I had a match against a Shulk where I had two opportunities to Up Smash against his counter . One did not touch me and another did.

Is there a small window of invincibility for Bowser during certain frames of his Up Smash? Or is it simply the autoguard that makes Bowser seem invincible?

 

[BSL]

A hitbox cannot hit you twice. what I would imagine is happening is one time he first made contact with the shell, so you ignored the hit. The other time, it hit your body first, which is not invincible.

 

[MrEh]

^this


Here's what I know about the autoguard. I may not be 100% correct on this, but this is what I've noticed.

• The autoguard frames kick in slightly before Usmash's hitbox comes out.
• There is a few frames of vulnerability between releasing a charged Usmash and the autoguard kicking in.
• The autoguard frames seem to end as soon as your Usmash hitbox ends. I could be wrong, but I've never seen the autoguard activate after wiffed Usmashes ever.
• If an attack hits your shell before hitting your body, that hit is negated by the autoguard, so it cannot hit your body afterwards.
• If an attack hits your body before hitting your shell, obviously you get hit.
• If an attack hits both your body and your shell at the same time, the game treats the attack as being autoguarded. This can be seen when Bowser Usmashes multiple Bomb Ombs at once.
• The autoguard hurtbox is actually larger than the hitbox of Bowser's Usmash. This was probably done to prevent complications where the autoguard won't trigger against spaced attacks. While this is overall a very good thing, this is also why Greninja can Dair, hit your autoguard, and jump away before getting hit. lol

One of the things I'm wondering now is if the autoguard can block unblockable attacks like KO Punch or Final Smashes. Not that it's really important, but it's interesting.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I never considered that an opponent hurtbox can collide with my body or my shell depending on when this move's autoguard activates a counter move. Both of your explanations make this much clearer, so now, I have to consider that the only consistent way to get autoguard to nullify activated counters is to do extremely hard reads and have perfect timing. I really do not like the new property on some counter moves that reflects the knockback of the moves they counter back to the attacker.

Not related to the shellguard, has anyone else noticed that Bowser can still damage people with his Up Smash even when the move ends, when he falls back to the ground? I don't know if this is weaker than the actual shell hit or not (i.e. a sour spot) since I have not been able to land this kind of hit with the Up Smash often.

 

[MrEh]

Counters have done multiplying damage back to their attacker for ages though. Since good ol Roy.

From what I've seen, hitting your opponent with your Usmash as soon as the hitbox comes out is a good way to get the autoguard frames to overlap with their counter. Spacing is still important, but it seems to be more consistent this way.

And yeah, Bowser has been able to body slam people since Brawl. It still sucks. Sometimes you hit people with it when they airdodge through your Usmashes though. lol

 

[S_B]

Yeah, if the shell is still rising, it seems like you still have a chance for the autoguard to hit.

And like you said, you can go into training, spawn 4 explosive crates and upsmash them all at once. The CPU will jump to 150% and die horribly while Bowser won't be scratched (unless there's a slight delay and one of the boxes goes off after the initial hit).

 

[Anragon]

The invincibility occures only when the hitbox of the smash is ACTIVE and this for the full duration of the hitbox.

The rest of the U-smash animation is vulnerable.

 

[MrEh]

It's not invincibility. All autoguard does is negate hits. It doesn't make you invincible.

 

[S_B]

You could call yourself invincible for the frame in which the autoguard triggers, but it's literally on that EXACT frame and if an attack happens a frame later, you're gonna get hit.

I'd stick with "shellguard" because this really is a unique situation.

 

[MrEh]

If your shell gets hit on the same frame your body gets hit from two separate attacks, you get hit.

That's not invincibility in any way.

 

[B!squick]

No, it's invin-SHELL-bility.

 

[S_B]

If your shell gets hit on the same frame your body gets hit from two separate attacks, you get hit.

That's not invincibility in any way.

What I mean to say is, for that frame, your SHELL is invincible.

On the shellguard frame, the shell can take MULTIPLE hits from any number of sources and Bowser will be unaffected, which is pretty awesome.

And as was mentioned earlier, if an attack hits your shell AND body simultaneously, it will be negated.

 

[MrEh]

Fair enough.

No, it's invin-SHELL-bility.

 

[S_B]

I mean, it'll never happen in game (even with items on), but it would be AMAZINGLY satisfying to upsmash four explosive crates at once and watch your opponent go sailing over the horizon with 300%+ damage on them while Bowser doesn't even get SCRATCHED...

Maybe a party ball with four bobombs...