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Infinite discussion

Big-Cat

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If the infinite is incredibly difficult, and therefore unlikely, there's no point in banning it. El Fuerte has an infinite in SF4 and actually trying to make it an infinite is downright impractical. Zamus may be much better off to just go for a mixup after a rep or two.

Either way, I'd still like for it, the Peach autoban, and the Rush Coil hitstun glitch to be fixed.
 

Raijinken

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...you do realize there's this thing called "tick throws" in traditional fighters, right? Basically the same premise, throwing in a few meaty attacks and going for a throw somewhere between. Should we start banning those?
I was not aware of that terminology, I don't play traditional fighters on any regular basis. No reason to ban them unless they go infinite, in my opinion, but due to knockback scaling on most attacks, that doesn't seem to be an issue.
 

guedes the brawler

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What's surprising is that this might seem like something with no depth but it does dd quite a bit of depth.

ZSS players will have to think on ways to get in position to start the infinite, Robin players will need to think of ways to avoid getting put into these situations, at which point ZSS players will need to think of ways to reak through Robin's defense to setup their infinite; and so on.


But what people might be forgetting is; INFINITES ARE ONLY A SMALL PART OF THE MATCH AS A WHOLE!

there is so much more to the ZSS vs Robin matchup than just "how to setup/avoid the infinite", just like in all other match-ups that had similar things. Sure, when ZSS gets going, too bad, the stock is lost... but there is plenty of things that come before that moment both players need to be aware of. Especially if the infinite doesn't happen.

ZSS might have an infinite on Robin; but what if Robin ends up having a a good match-up against her anyways?
 

wafflini

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I don't think this is a true infinite, robon could roll instead of just standing up after being footstooled
 

Reila

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Man, some posts in this threads feel like a big "**** you" to future Robin players. Geez.

I really hope the infinite is fixed in a patch. The worst thing about any fighting game are infinites. How I hate infinites in King of Fighters -_-''
 

LancerStaff

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Man, some posts in this threads feel like a big "**** you" to future Robin players. Geez.

I really hope the infinite is fixed in a patch. The worst thing about any fighting game are infinites. How I hate infinites in King of Fighters -_-''
It's not that we're being jerks to Robin players, we'd be jerks to players of any character who gets infinited. Really, it's in our best interests to not add a bunch of little rules you'll have to remember for each matchup.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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There's a very significant chance this infinite isn't even practical which is important to keep in mind. Even if it is though, it really is more about avoiding arbitrary rules. As a competitive community, we strive to play the game as it is, not as we want it to be. If Robin (or any other character) is subject to an infinite or another abusive tactic, that's a real shame, but it's acceptable. This is, incidentally, not "unfair" at all; the concept of fairness is often misunderstood. Every player has an equal and fair chance to pick any characters on the character select screen. The relative imbalances between those characters are not unfair; it's a legitimate part of the game's skill test to pick one whose disadvantages you can mitigate, whose advantages you can emphasize, and whose overall true worth is high enough to allow you to win. In other words, even in the (unlikely) event this infinite just ruins Robin, that's still not unfair because no one is forcing you to pick Robin; picking Robin is an act declaring you accept all of Robin's weaknesses and believe you can come out ahead by relying on Robin's strengths. If you believe the trade-off is not worth it, just don't pick Robin.

Also, consider enforcement. If you believe this infinite should be banned, put yourself in the TO's shoes. The match-up Robin versus Zero Suit Samus is being played at your tournament. An angry Robin player calls you over; he is down a stock versus the Zero Suit Samus player and on the respawn platform. He claims the Zero Suit Samus player did the infinite on him; the Zero Suit Samus player simply denies having done any infinite sequence and claims to have just significantly outplayed the Robin player. What do you do? I hope you quickly see that this hypothetical rule banning the infinite is forcing a TO in most common situations into a situation of just guessing who is telling the truth. We can't and don't monitor a majority of matches as they proceed; this is okay because the rules are "do what the game lets you do" and the niche rules against stalling (the hardcore kind like Luigi ladder in doubles or using infinites for the purpose of running the clock instead of getting a KO) are easy to enforce since you can stop the game, call over a TO, and have him watch and at least make sure no stalling occurs from that point forward which is generally sufficient. A rule like banning an infinite outright? You're just relying on the honor of the competitors to observe the rule and not lie about violations; this is a compromising position for a TO to be in, and the gains the game could prospectively have by not having the infinite in the metagame are far lower than the losses we risk by allowing these kinds of controversies over what really happened to flourish.

I do notice it's a lot of the newer and less experienced users who want this ban; I understand their thinking since this issue would seem to be one in which one thing no one likes (we all hate infinites) is just making the game worse. However, the large resistance more experienced players are offering is very purposeful; we've seen these kind of things play out in the past, and our past experiences inform us that overall we're collectively better off if we just accept these kinds of flaws in games and not try to correct them with rules. I hope our posts in this topic are convincing to some of you guys; I promise we don't hate Robin or love infinites. We just want the game on a competitive level to be the best it can be, and we know this kind of rule doesn't produce that result.
 

Hitzel

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Man, people in this thread act like almost every fighting game ever made doesn't have infinites and/or character-specific infinites in them. About zero of those infinites are actually banned.

This reminds me of how everyone said that Ice Climbers wobbling would kill hype, yet when it happened at Evo the crowd had one of its loudest freakouts of the whole weekend.

*Edit*

The post above me nailed it.
 
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Chiroz

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I don't think this is a true infinite, robon could roll instead of just standing up after being footstooled
No, if you are attacked while on the ground you are forced to "stand up" by the game. There is no option. It's the reason ZSS always attacks upon landing and it's the reason that she needs to pivot footstool, as otherwise she wouldn't have enough time to attack Robin before he rolled.
 
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Unkown Hero

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Hello, I am new here and a really big fan of smash, especially Link (actually young link). After watching this infinite on Robin I actually notice something I not sure if anyone else has notice. Just as Robin is get footstooled, it looks like he has a very small wind that he could actually tech out of and even if that doesn't work, couldn't Robin just roll away get up or get up attack on zamus to get out of the situation? This is just my personal opinion and if you find that I don't reply that is because I am unlike able to. OK thanks
 

PingPongCop

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Not to be rude, but this whole arguement is just stupid. Ice Climbers can infinite ANY character, and you say its completely unfair for ZSS to infinite just one? No. Just No. Anyone defending Robin here, just stop. I know its hard to just come to terms with this, but you have to. It is also unfair for ZSS to not be able to use a viable option against a character. (You heard me, I said viable. Again, the Ice Climbers can infinite ANY character.) This is just a feature of Robin that is an unfortunate disadvantage. This doesn't COMPLETELY wipe him out of the scene. I'm sure a good Robin player can space ZSS out with Arc Thunders and Arc Fires, and then properly knock her up into the air to finish. Keep jumping around the stage and tossing around Arc Fires and El Winds until you find an opening. People will find a way to adapt to this and possibly even prevent it from happening. Not by banning or patching, but by just finding a counter to this infinte.

As @ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos said, we should strive to play the game how it is, not how we want it to be.

Again, we could have just COMPLETELY banned Ice Climbers from tournaments. But did we? No. Ice Climbers were virtually never banned at any tournament.
 

Hylian

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How would you respond to a hypothetical scenario where, through some glitch, whenever a player using Fox against Ganondorf could always be guaranteed victory by pressing B at the start of a match?

I'm not saying it necessarily equates, I'm just interested to know where you draw the line in matters of exploitable game elements.
Banning gameplay breaking glitches is completely different than banning a series of inescapable moves. If the glitch was that pressing b at any point in the match made the ganon lose then it would be very problematic as that match-up just couldn't be played. It probably wouldn't be banned in that scenario and ganon would just be unviable. If it was only at the very start of the match it would probably be banned, and would be enforceable through the match length in the results screen.

IC's freeze glitch is banned in melee for example because it makes the game unplayable.
 

Senario

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Banning gameplay breaking glitches is completely different than banning a series of inescapable moves. If the glitch was that pressing b at any point in the match made the ganon lose then it would be very problematic as that match-up just couldn't be played. It probably wouldn't be banned in that scenario and ganon would just be unviable. If it was only at the very start of the match it would probably be banned, and would be enforceable through the match length in the results screen.

IC's freeze glitch is banned in melee for example because it makes the game unplayable.
Kinda true, it isn't banned in Japan? but has a very interesting rule with it. If Ice climbers are unable to unfreeze the opponent they lose the game because they are "stalling" also because they can't free the opponent lol.

There is still a little debate about if it should be allowed or not though. Currently no, but I can see the arguments for it since if you are unable to unfreeze the opponent then you lose. But then again there is the debate on how easy it is to set up compared to wobbling which is also a free stock. Plus I assume you can wobble out of freeze glitch and that would be very problematic.

I'm kinda neutral on it but I feel I have to chime in here. At least part of the reason wobbling and ice climber shennanigans are kinda allowed in tournaments in melee is because they do not invalidate any character specifically and are somewhat more difficult to set up and keep going.
 

Raijinken

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People have confirmed that Robin's footstool bug has been fixed in 1.04, thus removing that particular infinite.
 

infomon

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Wow. I eat my words; I was sure this type of thing would never be patched by Nintendo. Hurrah!

What exactly was Robin's "footstool bug"? I suppose that's the question I should have asked in the first place: what is special about Robin that allows this infinite to exist? Surely something about his footstool was different than everyone else.

In any case, glad to see this has been patched :D
 

Raijinken

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Wow. I eat my words; I was sure this type of thing would never be patched by Nintendo. Hurrah!

What exactly was Robin's "footstool bug"? I suppose that's the question I should have asked in the first place: what is special about Robin that allows this infinite to exist? Surely something about his footstool was different than everyone else.

In any case, glad to see this has been patched :D
Much like ROB in Brawl, there was an issue where Zamus wouldn't ascend after footstooling him. Combining that with the stun gun forcing a getup instead of allowing a tech or roll, she could footstool into stun gun basically until either an input error or until she's ready to kill him.
 
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