In this current iteration of the game, how viable do you think Ness is?

[Boiko]

Considering this current version (3.02), where M2, Sonic, Lucas, and Pit dominate the meta game, how viable do you think Ness is? In your opinion, what could make him more viable and what are his glaring weaknesses that you think prevent him from being viable?

In my opinion, Ness is a top 20 character, but no where above that. He has one option in neutral in PK Fire, which isn't even that good, and his second best option in spaced fairs is slow and easily baitable. Ness has a great combo game, but it is very DI dependent and because his dair hitbox is so small (compared to someone like Samus), he doesn't have great platform follow ups. You usually need to make a read to continue a combo. His recovery is one of the worst in the game. Sure, it goes a great distance, but it is extremely easy to edge guard as the end of it has very low priority and most character's aerials will beat it. For example, if Lucas hits you below the stage, consider yourself dead, his bair straight up destroys PKT2, same with Diddy's fair, Wario's bair, and any character with disjoint.

Of course, that isn't to say that Ness doesn't have some great tools. If you do catch your opponent with PKF, you can do three DJC dairs before the fire is gone, if you read their DI, you can combo until extremely high percents, and put your opponent off stage, where Ness has some of his best tools (PK Flash, Rising aerials, magnet, etc.) Also, he has some great grab follow ups, but has one the shortest grab ranges in the game.

I just honestly think that Ness' lack of options in the neutral limit his ability to be a top character. I have reason to believe that PK Fire will still activate on shield in 3.5, and that instead, the hits will be further apart, but this doesn't remedy the fact that he has to rely so much on one option in the neutral.

What are your thoughts?

 

[NessAtc.]

Yeah, I feel like Ness should have at least one more combo starter for the neutral game. Just having one extra can allow you to get inside your opponent's head.

 

[Boiko]

Especially with the coming nerf of footstools. Ness having one of the best in the game.

 

[NessAtc.]

The biggest buff Ness got from Brawl to Sm4sh was the regular PKT going through opponents in the first few frames. I feel like PM Ness should have that if he doesn't get another option for the Neutral. That's all I can think of atm honestly.

 

[Super_Primid]

I always had this crazy idea for ness that when doing his grounded PKT you can press sheild and have ness go back into his neutral stance. The PKT still stays out though it goes into its neutral phase(when it no longer counts as your projectile meaning no PKT2). This would let ness have a way to have the thunder cover his approach. Thus helping in neutral. Also i forgot to mention the earliest moment to cancel would be when the first hit box comes out.

 

[UmmBees]

I agree there are many pitfalls to Ness' game and there are a few things that could be tweaked to increase his tournament viability. However, I think these tweaks should be slowly adjusted based on the fact that despite Ness not being S Tier a lot people think he's broken (mostly people who don't know how to deal with PK Fire). Community opinion matters a lot to buffs and nerfs as the PMBR has to keep the large majority of the community happy, especially with Sm4sh for Wii U right around the corner.

Luckily as of a couple of days ago Ness got a buff that I think was a long time coming. In 3.5 his PKT1 hit box is buffed as well as it goes through stage hazards now (Shy Guys, Balloons, etc.)

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/dev-blogpost-9-yoshis-island-brawl

 

[Boiko]

That's why I feel like the more technical aspect of his game should be improved. Newer Ness mains heavily rely on PK Fire. It's the only thing they know how to do. When you're more advance you incorporate super fast djc mix ups, mag dashes, jab resets, and yo-yo tricks, among other things.

In order to buff Ness at a higher level, I think the items that can be improved on are his magnet being faster (Fox, Falco, and Wolf have 1-2 frame shine, why is Ness' like 7). The yo-yo extending slightly farther upon it's release, his bair having slightly increased horizontal kb (since it's so easy to DI).

I also think it would be pretty cool if Ness could stall his PK Flash for like not even half a second. For example, he sends it out off stage, and it disappears at max distance, and then by releasing B it reappears again up to like 20 frames later. You would be in charge animation the whole time, so it's not like it would be unpredictable, and the power doesn't increase after max distance and it can't move any farther. You could also release B any time to detonate it, just like now. If you continue to hold past 20 frames, it will detonate on its own. I think it would be SUCH cool feature. Especially if your opponent isn't paying too much mind to where you placed it. Also, you should be able to shield cancel it, but that would be broken beyond belief, LOLOL.

Edit: Oh and some nerfs to make him more balanced. PK Fire hits are delayed to 15 frames instead of 12, providing more time for SDI and rolling and less overall shield stun. Back throw kills later.

 

[QUBiX]

I find Ness to be really viable in the current state of of PM. I would have to agree with your tier standings of Ness Boiko. I would put him somewhere between top 16-20. I'd like to see some of his weaknesses get remedied to help balance him a bit more. Atm I feel like his onstage to recovery game is a bit too lopsided.

Recovery game is pretty bad IMO and is the worst part of Ness' character design. PKT2 goes far, has start up armor and very little landing lag, but he's so prone to being gimped due to a horrible hitbox. As you said disjoints wreck his PKT2 game, and I find this to happen a lot even mid way through his active frames.Not to mention PKT2 is only really viable from above the stage while recovering from below is really hard to sweet spot and not very dependable. Ness has great onstage presence, but lack of good recovery and anti-shield pressure are definitely his greatest weaknesses. Recovering from the ledge feels like it's only limited to instant DJC options because his ledge attack and L/R-recovery are pretty bad. I'd like to see these issues get better in 3.5 without going too overboard with unnecessary buffs.

Ness' best attributes have to be his edge guards and combo game even though it is heavily DI dependent. With that being said Ness has some good options at hand for solid follow-ups with floaties being the hardest to have control over. I find Ness can overcome a lot of bad match ups with enough practice and research. He definitely has the tools to make this happen even though I feel like I have to work pretty hard in order to achieve this, but that is an aspect that makes him fun honestly. Ness definitely requires a smart mindset and precision of attacks/stage position to play at high level game play. He has good shield pressure with well placed PKF's and DJC'd/Rising aerials. PKT, PK Flash, and D-air are really good tools to keep your opponent off the stage. PSImag is an interesting take of a spacey shine that allows you to extend combos and promote mind games to throw off the opponent. It could get a little better with less knock-back-growth though so it could be used more often as an offensive tool at mid percents. I find his tech chases on ground and platforms are actually pretty good as well. His quick grab and D-smash are great for ground tech chases, and his rising aerials are good for chasing the platform techs.

His movement has to be another great aspect to his design. I love his air control though DJC's and Rising aerial attacks with the help of PSImag for combo extensions and baits. Although, I'd like to see some minor things tweaked to help him in this department. I'd have to say Ness has great weight to him in order to stay alive, but due to his floatiness he can get bullied off the stage rather easily or be eaten up as combo food for most characters. I wish he would get a small revision to his air mobility. I feel like having this change could immensely help him in the long run for better mix-ups and falling back onto the stage. He's almost too floaty for his own good and get can pretty predictable with his horizontal/vertical aerial engagements. Having this could expand his options and keep the opponent on their toes.

Ness has an average neutral game. I wouldn't say it's bad, but definitely not the greatest out of the cast. His melee game is pretty unsafe for the most part upon hitting shields, and doesn't have a lot of reach aside from his bat. His yo-yo has okay range with good disjointed hitboxes aside from sub-par recovery frames. I used to hate his f-tilt, but I've grown to really like it. If that alone had slightly better frame advantage it would really help his neutral. It has enough knockback to make up for its short range, and is probably one of his better "get off me" moves aside from OoS N-air. D-tilt spam to F-tilt can go a long ways to creating space between your opponent and allows you to retreat/engage with PKF's and F-airs.

I'm enjoying the meta of Ness honestly. He's so much fun due to the player getting rewarded for being creative. Being a Ness player since the N64 days has been an interesting experience and being able to finally see him be good is awesome. I honestly don't want him to get changed too much. With the minor changes I recommended like getting a slight air mobility buff (being my most wanted feature) and a better recovery game he should be fine. I can deal with the neutral struggle against some characters because I feel like it's necessary to his balance.

Here's to hoping PM 3.5 doesn't bop his viability. LOL.

 

[Boiko]

I love everything about that post and agree almost 100%.

I definitely agree about f-tilt needing slight frame advantage. It's so good. One of his best edge guarding tools also.

Edit: I have more to say but I'm at work.

 

[Alakaslam]

I always had this crazy idea for ness that when doing his grounded PKT you can press sheild and have ness go back into his neutral stance. The PKT still stays out though it goes into its neutral phase(when it no longer counts as your projectile meaning no PKT2). This would let ness have a way to have the thunder cover his approach. Thus helping in neutral. Also i forgot to mention the earliest moment to cancel would be when the first hit box comes out.

K

Make pKt cancel make pkt slightly different direction cancel make pkt another direction cancel make another and another and another

Ness now tier SS banned

 

[Super_Primid]

K

Make pKt cancel make pkt slightly different direction cancel make pkt another direction cancel make another and another and another

Ness now tier SS banned

ok give PKT1 less priority so it can be hit through. Though that combo sound amazing. Edit: or maybe have a set amount of time between each cancel.... More then the stun of the move.

 

[Boiko]

I just think it should go through your opponent on start up.

 

[NessAtc.]

I just think it should go through your opponent on start up.

this x10000
I'm sick and tired of people derping around jumping into it

 

[Boiko]

this x10000
I'm sick and tired of people derping around jumping into it

Especially since it happens accidentally like 90% of the time.

 

[Alakaslam]

ok give PKT1 less priority so it can be hit through. Though that combo sound amazing. Edit: or maybe have a set amount of time between each cancel.... More then the stun of the move.

That would likely fix the brokenness

 

[twinx]

viable,just depends on the player

 

[Icehawkz0]

First off, I think he's very viable. He does have a few glaring weaknesses, (recovery cough cough), but I think that he has one of the best punish games if played properly. If there is something that needs to be buffed, it's definitely his neutral. He lacks so muuch in this department. But I think his ability to outmaneuver with platforms is a strong part in the argument. Still very viable IMO. I hope he gets buffed >.<

 

[Boiko]

First off, I think he's very viable. He does have a few glaring weaknesses, (recovery cough cough), but I think that he has one of the best punish games if played properly. If there is something that needs to be buffed, it's definitely his neutral. He lacks so muuch in this department. But I think his ability to outmaneuver with platforms is a strong part in the argument. Still very viable IMO. I hope he gets buffed >.<

IMO having a weak neutral is the worst thing a character can have. The neutral is everything. You won't be able to utilize your strong punish game if you can't do much in the neutral.

 

[Steak1ey]

First off, I think he's very viable. He does have a few glaring weaknesses, (recovery cough cough), but I think that he has one of the best punish games if played properly. If there is something that needs to be buffed, it's definitely his neutral. He lacks so muuch in this department. But I think his ability to outmaneuver with platforms is a strong part in the argument. Still very viable IMO. I hope he gets buffed >.<

His neutral is top tier lol just space djc fairs and enter with magnet
Never directly attack shield unless it's on the outside of it.
Spam pk flash, top tier bait
PK fire can also be spaced easily and can work as some serious pressure. Just don't let up, never stop throwing safe moves, and ness is in.
Wavelanding off of platforms to safe fairs gets me in 50% of the time. Just do djc fair to grab and you're golden for the rest of the stock

 

[Boiko]

His neutral is top tier lol just space djc fairs and enter with magnet
Never directly attack shield unless it's on the outside of it.
Spam pk flash, top tier bait
PK fire can also be spaced easily and can work as some serious pressure. Just don't let up, never stop throwing safe moves, and ness is in.
Wavelanding off of platforms to safe fairs gets me in 50% of the time. Just do djc fair to grab and you're golden for the rest of the stock

..nooooo.
Most of this applies to all characters, but take a read around some other threads where I break down how to approach Ness' neutral.

 

[twinx]

i like his neutral alot,he has really good air mobility so thats all you really need to abuse. his amazing grab game is also a plus.i dunno,people that say he doesn't have a good neutral are probably play too straight forward and get figured out easily.

 

[Boiko]

i like his neutral alot,he has really good air mobility so thats all you really need to abuse. his amazing grab game is also a plus.i dunno,people that say he doesn't have a good neutral are probably play too straight forward and get figured out easily.

His neutral is very linear. It's very bait and punish.

 

[twinx]

his punish game is amazing.
in higher level play,baiting is one of the few viable ways to get in on your opponent. can't really cheese a good player

 

[link-a-link]

here's a question, why is lucas down b almost instant and ness's isn't? they are basically the same move, thats like having falco's shine be 5x slower than fox's.

 

[Boiko]

here's a question, why is lucas down b almost instant and ness's isn't? they are basically the same move, thats like having falco's shine be 5x slower than fox's.

Lucas' magnet is 5 frames and Ness' is 8. Lucas also has 3 frames of hit lag on his magnet where Ness does not.

 

[Slaudial]

His neutral is top tier lol just space djc fairs and enter with magnet
Never directly attack shield unless it's on the outside of it.
Spam pk flash, top tier bait
PK fire can also be spaced easily and can work as some serious pressure. Just don't let up, never stop throwing safe moves, and ness is in.
Wavelanding off of platforms to safe fairs gets me in 50% of the time. Just do djc fair to grab and you're golden for the rest of the stock

Daaaaammmmmmn this adivce
I should tell people how to play Ike
-Lol just space. you have a sword you know
-Spam eruption, hella top tier bait
-just don't let up, keep going in, BOOM. Ike is in.
-Goddamn QUICKDRAW
-If they try to **** with you, counter their ass

 

[IglooBuds]

He is very viable if you can read moves well.

 

[Boiko]

He is very viable if you can read moves well.

Every character is viable in that sense. Just because you know what someone is going to do, it doesn't necessarily mean you can punish it.

 

[EarthboundHero]

Lol tbh, you got to look at it from an Earthbound point of view. Some enemies you can just easily beat with you bat or offense PSI.
But for bosses you have to guess what moves your opponents will make and act accordingly.

Ness can bait fairly seeing as PK Fire is a good spacing tool. But if PK fire is shielded it's a wrap. It does suck how most his approaches can be shielded and punished and if you shield someone elses move, you'll just get jabbed and grabbed due to Ness's short grab range. But all in all, Ness is as viable as your make him. You just need to take full advantage of his psychic abilities

 

[Boiko]

Pretty sure PKF bolt is decently safe on shield. When I do a b reverse aerial pkf to cross up shield to grab, I get the grab. Don't know about frame data though. @ GMaster171 any knowledge on that?

 

[GMaster171]

the bolt is -2 on shield point blank (assuming you land the frame after it hits) meaning you can safely roll out, and against short range characters can even simply run.

 

[EarthboundHero]

the bolt is -2 on shield point blank (assuming you land the frame after it hits) meaning you can safely roll out, and against short range characters can even simply run.

true bruh. But some times I'll just get punished hardcore

 

[Ness_STFU]

Exceptionally underrated, much in the way Falco was in pre-2004 Melee.

Unfortunately, Ness has quite a high tech ceiling, and this "false ceiling" that we're running into in current meta kind of keeps him lower than he should be.

I see a few Ness players utilizing ATs, but few are pushing them to limits in matches. Mag -> jc -> fair/nair/uair/dair, DJC dairs at lightning speed (so hard to tech for humans, you'd be surprised who I've seen miss 4-8 DJC dair techs in a row), DJC uairs for juggling, wavemagneting, magnet OOS -> uair -> etc., mag -> dair off ledge, DJC/short hop PK fire, rising aerials, etc. People to use these but most haven't yet stuck them in combo string.

I don't think Ness has the potential to become top tier, but he's quite close when played correctly.

He'd be a great character for a tech-savvy veteran to pick up right now. Lots to explore, rewarding, interesting and unlikely to be changed with next patch.

 

[Boiko]

I use all of those besides mag OoS because that's actually a pretty bad option when you could just dair out of shield significantly faster and still start a combo string. Don't forget, mag startup is frame 8, which is slow, considering every single character in the game has at least a frame 7 OoS option in a shield grab.

Everything else is pretty common among top Ness mains tbh. I started this post in 3.02, when he had a hard time with every top tier character. Now that he doesn't, I don't think he's so bad.