In need of pointers

[Ghetto Blush]

I just recently started playing PM for about three weeks or so now and I've finally played enough to where I think I want to be a Lucas main. I really like his playstyle and he seems to combine elements of a lot of characters that I've always liked. I explored the Lucas AT thread and it seemed like outside of DJC, many other things seemed rather overly specific so I just focused on getting my DJC mechanics down.

I'm at the point where I'm comfortable with DJCing just about anything aside from the odd PKF that I miss sometimes, but that leaves me with one question. Now what?

I've found that my biggest problem with Lucas at the moment is finding good ways to approach. I've been experimenting with different stuff like throwing out magnets into DJC fairs or magnets into wavedash, but I'm still not sure what Lucas bnb approaches are yet.

General stuff aside I also have a problem with certain match-ups. I seem to really struggle getting in against characters with disjointed hitboxes like Marth or Roy and also small and fast characters that are less susceptible to PKF like Squirtle. This might be a bit too general but what are some good options against those types of characters?

 

[NeonApophis]

You can get a good sense of Lucas's options for approaching from just watching videos and looking at the various ways good Lucas players approach. Pkf is an important tool for approaching. If your opponent is at a range where they won't be able to shield the pkf and then punish your landing lag, you can throw it out pretty safely. The hit has good hitstun but no knockback, so it is really easy to follow up with whatever sort of punishment you want. In terms of close range approaches/shield pressure, aerial magnet to djc stuff is frequently the best option. I go for aerial magnet to up air a lot since it basically autocombos on most characters, so you can use it to combo out of the up air, or if they shield it is effective pressure that will lead into a combo if either the magnet or the up air hits. If they're just sitting in shield, magnet to retreating DJC fair is good since it lets you land out of their grab range (unless they have a grapple). Grabbing is also good in a lot of situations, and can be used to follow up on a hit with pkf.

I'm not super sure about the Roy matchup, but it seems like his neutral game is similar to Marth's. The thing about Marth is that he doesn't have good shield pressure, so he has to rely on dashdancing and good spacing to land hits or get a grab. A lot of the time he'll just be DDing around outside of your physical attack range, waiting for you to do something that leaves you open to getting grabbed. So you can shut him down significantly by shooting pkfs and then just punishing off the hit. The best thing they can do is probably to shield the pkf and then wavedash out of shield, but not all players will do that (a lot actually can't do it), and even if they do they shouldn't be able to punish you as long as you're a decent distance away. I generally only get punished for doing a pkf if they're close enough to shield it and then shield grab me.

Squirtle is more annoying, but he generally has to approach you if he wants to maintain his mobility since it covers such a large area. I mostly go for grab, dash attack, and down air against Squirtle and combo off of those, since they hit him the same way they hit any other character. You could also do djc fair since the hitbox will be so low to the ground due to the djc and I'm pretty sure it's strong enough to hit through Squirtle's armor. He's a weird character on the ground, but once you get him in the air you can pretty much just do your normal combos.

 

[Burnsy]

I'll read through all of this later and put down my thoughts, but for now I'll just say without reading that Neon is a good Lucas relatively so his advice is probably a good start.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Yeah, Freeze is one of the best routes to go since it's super safe when spaced well. Try not to overuse it (like I do) though and make sure you learn how to properly space Fair when approaching with it.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

Thanks for the help everyone. The insight about Marth really helped out but one thing I realized is how important DJCing PKF is, but I just can't get it down consistently. Does anyone have any advice on that?

 

[Sai_]

How exactly to you DJC (in terms of button pressing)? I find SHFFLing Fairs to be very useful for me but it seems DJC'ing Fairs will be much quicker to rack up damage. What I try to do is press Y + Y + C-stick but I'm not sure if that's what DJC is; I couldn't find any video guides on it either other than written guides, and for a fighting game, I prefer to learn by visuals. How much faster do you see DJC any of Lucas' aerials compared to SHFFLing them?

 

[Ghetto Blush]

How exactly to you DJC (in terms of button pressing)? I find SHFFLing Fairs to be very useful for me but it seems DJC'ing Fairs will be much quicker to rack up damage. What I try to do is press Y + Y + C-stick but I'm not sure if that's what DJC is; I couldn't find any video guides on it either other than written guides, and for a fighting game, I prefer to learn by visuals. How much faster do you see DJC any of Lucas' aerials compared to SHFFLing them?

I use Y+Y+A+Direction

You can definitely tell the difference between DJC and SHFFL. The DJC page on Smashwiki really helped me visualize what the differences looked like.

 

[Sai_]

Well, using a CCP is really hard then. I can't wait for my GC controller adapter in January. Y and A are far in the CCP. Since you are performing an aerial with DJC, L-Cancel is possible. Should you use L-Canceling or is it not worth it?

 

[Ghetto Blush]

Well I don't think the way I do it is necessarily optimal. I just L-Cancel them because why not?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Always L-Cancel, there's no reason not to, it's tough, but it's just another tough thing about Lucas, haha.

If you are having problems with DJC PKF, I suggest just trying it really fast. You should land with it canceling but no ice coming out. Start the process of slowly doing it slower until you finally get the Ice out. From then on it's just muscle memory you have to get down

 

[Sai_]

Yeah I've seen that happen as well. I try to make the PK freeze come out as close to the ground as possible. Also, I read this movement called DJC-FFLing. What's the point of fast fall if DJC already gets me close enough to the ground that fast fall is not needed?

 

[T-Cash]

I just recently started playing PM for about three weeks or so now and I've finally played enough to where I think I want to be a Lucas main. I really like his playstyle and he seems to combine elements of a lot of characters that I've always liked. I explored the Lucas AT thread and it seemed like outside of DJC, many other things seemed rather overly specific so I just focused on getting my DJC mechanics down.

I'm at the point where I'm comfortable with DJCing just about anything aside from the odd PKF that I miss sometimes, but that leaves me with one question. Now what?

I've found that my biggest problem with Lucas at the moment is finding good ways to approach. I've been experimenting with different stuff like throwing out magnets into DJC fairs or magnets into wavedash, but I'm still not sure what Lucas bnb approaches are yet.

General stuff aside I also have a problem with certain match-ups. I seem to really struggle getting in against characters with disjointed hitboxes like Marth or Roy and also small and fast characters that are less susceptible to PKF like Squirtle. This might be a bit too general but what are some good options against those types of characters?

i used to approach with pkf a lot but the lag usually gets to you in the end unless you perfectly space it and even then there isnt really much punish game on it unless you can approach into it. I find i dont djc as much as other lucas mains only because i think his shffl is just as good.
the best way to approach with lucas is nair it leads into almost anything including itself or smashes which are crucial to his gameplay. Lucas falls off in the sense that his recovery doesnt have enough recovery and when he gets thrown off the stage he is really at a disadvantage. i find it really easy to combo with Lucas his stage presence is really good he makes up for his lack of recovery dont be scared to switch it up !! djc bair are a good way to move around and apply pressure, sometimes i even zair gets you where you wanna be with lucas. His tilts are really fast and space pretty well. My friend has a good squirtle and i usually wait to see how hyper active he is playing. Dair has a suprising amount of priority and leads into devastating combos !! and its a spike with squirtles recovery its hard to edge guard him so make sure you make smashes count my fav one being u smash. if you are feeling comfortable with your character work on making your bair spike everytime i find that essential to my gameplay i tend to struggle in matchups like wario with his nair(offstage) and mario cancels your recovery completly with one fire ball. his down-b is very situational in my opinion. i use it close to the distance on the ledge because it sends backwards then you can lead into back air for easy gimps. characters like marth and roy i take advantage of my little extra grab range i have and lead up into combos with d-throw. dthrow to upsmash works alot on low percents and you can really get creative d-throw- fair -fair-downair is the Cash combo lol im really ballsy when i play against marth roy sheik fox etc. In my opinion Lucas is alot like hitting the lottery sometimes you get it sometimes you dont. I have a couple matches as soon as i edit im looking forward to posting and showing people the lucas montage. Also looking forward to playing him at Apex with the exception of a couple matchups i feel he is really weak in Mario being a really big one! I hope this helps you in your adventures with Lucas im still looking for the best way to play him optimally and anyone can feel free to comment their opinions on how they feel im also into to constructive criticism.

 

[T-Cash]

You can get a good sense of Lucas's options for approaching from just watching videos and looking at the various ways good Lucas players approach. Pkf is an important tool for approaching. If your opponent is at a range where they won't be able to shield the pkf and then punish your landing lag, you can throw it out pretty safely. The hit has good hitstun but no knockback, so it is really easy to follow up with whatever sort of punishment you want. In terms of close range approaches/shield pressure, aerial magnet to djc stuff is frequently the best option. I go for aerial magnet to up air a lot since it basically autocombos on most characters, so you can use it to combo out of the up air, or if they shield it is effective pressure that will lead into a combo if either the magnet or the up air hits. If they're just sitting in shield, magnet to retreating DJC fair is good since it lets you land out of their grab range (unless they have a grapple). Grabbing is also good in a lot of situations, and can be used to follow up on a hit with pkf.

I'm not super sure about the Roy matchup, but it seems like his neutral game is similar to Marth's. The thing about Marth is that he doesn't have good shield pressure, so he has to rely on dashdancing and good spacing to land hits or get a grab. A lot of the time he'll just be DDing around outside of your physical attack range, waiting for you to do something that leaves you open to getting grabbed. So you can shut him down significantly by shooting pkfs and then just punishing off the hit. The best thing they can do is probably to shield the pkf and then wavedash out of shield, but not all players will do that (a lot actually can't do it), and even if they do they shouldn't be able to punish you as long as you're a decent distance away. I generally only get punished for doing a pkf if they're close enough to shield it and then shield grab me.

Squirtle is more annoying, but he generally has to approach you if he wants to maintain his mobility since it covers such a large area. I mostly go for grab, dash attack, and down air against Squirtle and combo off of those, since they hit him the same way they hit any other character. You could also do djc fair since the hitbox will be so low to the ground due to the djc and I'm pretty sure it's strong enough to hit through Squirtle's armor. He's a weird character on the ground, but once you get him in the air you can pretty much just do your normal combos.

i didnt really read this before posting this lucas knows his stuff also =)

 

[Lukingordex]

Uh are you sure about Nair being his best approach option?

I know it's a pretty good move but it doesn't have a godlike priority against a lot of other character's moves.

 

[Sai_]

Nair is pretty good for racking up quick damage, and if you get that last hit on that move, there is slight knock back which can lead to other aerials such as Fair or Bair. I like to do an up tilt when the Nair finished and then jump and do a Bair.

 

[Nguz95]

It's all about the waveshine baby. It looks good and nets you combos all day every day. Lucas is the rare character with both style and substance. Be sure to have fun with him and be as fancy as you like, because he sure as hell can handle it.

 

[Sai_]

What attack do you recommend to do after waveshining with Lucas? Also, when do you waveshine?

I also think we should just call Lucas and Ness' jump-cancel wavedash out of their magnets magnetdashing just to keep it conventional and canon to their respective down B's.

 

[Nguz95]

That's fine. I'll call it magnetdashing. Anyway, I md a lot after I shffl aerials. It's very similar to what fox and falco do, as I used to be a falco main. At low % I like to hit them with a nair and, regardless of whether or not they shield, I magnet them and then md. I can also start up an md with DJC fair and dair. Another situation to use md is when you land behind your opponent with an aerial. You can turnaround md, or you can jump over their shield and dair them to try and open them up. On fast-fallers you can dthrow them at low % into a turnaround md.

There are a bunch of moves you can use out of md, and a lot of them depend on who you're fighting. On fast-fallers you can often do a turnaround md and get them going in the opposite direction. You can also nair them and get another md going in the same direction. Sometimes I ftilt them, but this works better if you are close to the edge of the stage.

On midweights it all depends on the %, but I find that uair hits them consistently. At low % you can do the nair md as well, same as the fast-fallers. At mid % you can uair for a combo, or you can do a really quick bair. At high % you have to move towards them again, either with a dash or a wd. If you wd again, you can bair them. If you run towards them, you can fair them.

Floaties get a little tricky. At low % you can uair them, but you can also catch them sleeping and usmash them at the higher end of low %. That often doesn't combo, so I'm not sure how useful it is. At high % there's not much you can do. Often I jump up, throw out a uair to bait the double jump, and wait for them to come back to the ground. Then I try to swat them while they're vulnerable. That way I can try to kill them before they recover their dj.

One interesting note about md. If you're feeling fancy, and you're close to the ledge, you can md to the ledge, knocking your opponent offstage. You then have two options: fast fall the ledge to try can catch them with a double jump aerial, or hang onto the ledge and force them to recover high. This makes for a very powerful situation, and you should experiment with it to try and see if you can edgeguard them with it.

 

[NeonApophis]

You should DJC with Y (or X) for the first jump and then up on the control stick for the second jump since this lets you do perfect DJCs (no risk of floating higher like you will if you hold Y too long) and it lets you already have your right thumb on the c-stick when you do your double jump, so that you can attack as soon as possible. And yeah, you always need to L cancel. DJCing doesn't do anything to your landing lag, it just lets your control your jump height, so you can spend less time in the air than you would with a short hop, allowing you to attack more quickly.

Nair isn't his best approach precisely because of its lack of priority. It's a very good move and I used to use it as my primary approach, but it over time I realized it isn't very safe to just throw out nairs and hope they connect. I've started using DJC fair a lot more since it has more range and a higher priority disjointed hitbox, so it's much safer and more useful as a spacing tool. I also like doing approaching magnets and then wavelanding back or doing a retreating djc fair if I'm out of their range or hitting their shield, or going for a combo if I connect with the magnet or am in range to hit with my djc aerial. By the way, when I say "approaching magnet" I'm referring to what happens when you do a running jump and magnet very shortly after leaving the ground so that you glide forward quickly without gaining my height. I think I've seen these called magnet glides, but I didn't want to confuse it with the side b momentum trick.

 

[Sai_]

Alright I'll try to implement that to my game. Lucas is really growing on me even though I have trouble with DJC. He is very fun to use combined with amazing combos just adds icing to the cake. I've see combo videos of him from P:M 2.1; his aerial attacks from those days seem a lot better for spikes and meteor smashes, which I often do when playing characters like Roy, Mewtwo, Marth, etc.

 

[NeonApophis]

His current bair is amazing for spikes. I feel like the Lucas metagame is going to move toward being more focused on just moving people off the stage with his magnet combos and then spiking them with bair. It's quite strong and has an amazing hitbox, and Lucas can go very far below the stage to get the spike and still recover with his tether (not that that matters too much if you kill them anyways, but if you miss you can get back more safely, and it gives you more time to charge your OU after a kill, so you're more likely to be able to get a charge than if you use your up b).

 

[Nguz95]

Neon, what is your experience with aerial magnet djc bair? Someone I met at Xanadu pointed it out, and he said it hit really consistently against fast-fallers like Falco. I haven't had time to try it out, but I feel like the bair is just slow enough for it to hit after the release hitbox from magnet.

Edit: you finally got an avatar!

 

[NeonApophis]

I've actually experimented with that a lot. It's pretty cool, but I'm not sure it's really the best option. Most of the time you have to do a weird DJC timing in order to reach them with the bair, and it will often just hit them into the ground and let them tech. I'd rather go with up air, or even fair or nair, before I'd go for the bair. The other aerials just set up for combos better and are more guaranteed since you don't have to do a extra long double jump in order to connect with them.
Really the coolest thing to do on fastfallers is aerial magnet to turn around djc pkf and then combo off that.

 

[Nguz95]

That sounds awesome. I'll have to try the pkf and the uair, as I 've mostly been using fair.

 

[Sai_]

I still have implemented pkf in my game, I just don't know the range it which it will be useful; that and the slight vertical distance the opponent gets when hit by it slightly throws me off. Usually I approach with DJC Fairs or a dash attack, do up tilts and juggle them, and then end with a Bair.

The Bair is really good to launch your opponent at horizontal distances if you're not going for spikes, and then you can chase them and finish it off with a RAR'd Bairto spike them.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

At mid to long range PKF confirms into DACUS and if you land close to them you can pretty much do anything, including Fsmash.

 

[Nguz95]

I finally got the DJC pkf down today. It's nice because it works against those ******* like MK and Toon Link. You can also completely halt your momentum, which is nice if you're running towards an edge and want to fire a pkf over your shoulder. It was definitely worth my time.

Djc retreating fair works wonders too. It forces your opponent to do something, usually shield, putting them in a position from which you can cover all their options easily.

 

[Sai_]

DJC PKF into DACUS... that sounds scary and bit hard to perform; I'll try it out.

Does anyone know the actual time the opponent spends immobile when hit by PKF?

 

[Nguz95]

I'm not sure at the moment, but I know where I can figure out. I'll see if I can calculate the exact hitstun with Strong Bad's hitstun calculator.

 

[Burnsy]

Well, first of all, the amount of time they spend in hitstun is going to depend on their percent, since hitstun = knockback, assuming the move has knockback gain (KBG). Which leads me into the next issue with calculating PKF hitstun, which is that Brawlbox does not give us the knockback, or KBG values for PK freeze since it is an article. We would need someone to count the frames of hitstun with Frame Advance or a PMBR member to tell us (I think they have knockback + damage data on articles handy).

 

[Badge]

You can find the PKF collision under "Articles/Article 1/SubActions/Shoot/Main" in BB. It has knockback values of 45 base and 29 growth (and deals 5 damage unstaled). PKF also, very importantly, has a hitlag modifier of 3.25, which increases the amount of time the opponent spends in hitlag from 4 to 13 frames - this is equal to the landing lag of PKF. Lucas doesn't suffer from the hitlag as PKF is an article. So the total amount of frames your opponent spends unable to act is 12+[hitstun] (last frame of hitlag counts as first frame of hitstun).
As for hitstun, it depends on knockback, which in turn depends on the weight and current damage of your opponent, see here (the formulas for PM and Melee are the same).

 

[Burnsy]

8adge dabess