In my opinion, making the game have less advanced techniques makes the game even harder.

[Scootaloo Elzacryst]

If you don't understand what I'm saying, lemme explain: One of the most effective techniques in Melee were L-Cancelling and Wavedashing. It wasn't hard to do, as you just press your shield button before an aerial attack hits the ground. You just had to get into the habit of pressing that button, but after a while of practice, it became second nature. Then, wavedashing wasn't hard at all. Just Air Dodge into the ground. Sure, some characters such as Bowser had a hard time because their timing was really strict, but overall wavedashing wasn't some frame perfect technique only players who spent hours everyday could perform.

In Smash 4, most techniques are gone. The closest thing we have to wavedashing is Perfect pivoting, but it's EXTREMELY hard to do because you have to be really precise with your timing. To me, it just feels awkward jiggling the joystick. I have to put my thumb in a very precise spot and then do it for it to work, which is something I just can't do when I'm in the heat of the battle. I also can't do it going left because using my left thumb to go left then right really fast is just awkward and doesn't feel as good.

Everything in Smash 4 seems good for casuals, but for advanced players you have to be really precise, something that's really ironic. Sakurai said that he wanted it to be easy for casuals and competitive players, but trying to land these Perfect Pivots and stuff are rather wonky. Most of the techniques that do mitigate lag are somewhat frame perfect, such as falco's tech where he has to use Down-Air really close to the ground and fast fall, then he would be able to cancel the lag.

It seems like instead of having fluid things such as L-Cancelling and Wave Dashing, when a game like Smash 4 comes out, it becomes harder for us to really use anything. Honestly, the only thing I wanted, and among others, was just Dash Dancing to come back, as well as the momentum you get after a dash and into a jump. Dash Dancing has to be frame perfect, but even then it's not very viable as you can't move very much.

This is just my opinion, though

 

[Raijinken]

Difficulty of execution is rather subjective. I could L-cancel okay and had difficulty attacking out of a wavedash because I hate tapjump, but I can perfect pivot just as well or better since it's just a fast flick instead of multiple inputs.

And besides, thus far, perfect pivots haven't really had a notable impact on high level play (that I've seen, anyway). All of these techniques are still in the "optional but kinda fun" stage, not like Wavedashing and L-canceling, which were pretty much mandatory for most of the Melee high tier.

I think Smash4's in a good place, tech-level-wise. It's not hard to play in any sense (let's be honest, precise and fast actions aren't easy for everyone).

 

[Radirgy]

Mew2King said it best. Smash 4 is fundamentals, you win by out thinking your opponent, not by having good tech skill.

 

[FormlessD]

There's other ways gameplay can be "advanced" than mechanics. More advanced inputs and combo strings are mechanical (besides DI reading etc). But the best players have to be able to read their opponent and space.

You can take two sports for example boxing and MMA. Obviously they're different, and MMA is a more expanded ruleset. But the more limited ruleset has its own metagame and tactics.

Certainly more options means more room for growth, but sometimes a limited ruleset/capability places more emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

EDIT: A point about Perfect Pivoting and Falco's dair cancelling. These are probably unintended consequences of the game engine. The devs were aware of wavedashing but they never anticipated it to become what it became in the metagame -- perhaps it was a product of how quickly Melee was developed and would've been changed with more QA testing. I wouldn't take the inclusion of perfect pivoting/dair cancelling and exclusion of L canceling to be the Smash team's weird anti-casual yet anti-competitive decision making as much as just an unintended mechanic (especially in the case of perfect pivoting, I dont know "why" the dair cancelling works).

 

[Octavium]

Calling a Player vs Player game ''Hard'' is an unusual statement, there is no such difficulty, its only a battle between rivals with a single victor. There is no such thing as a truly difficult Tech, its subjective depending on the person and the amount of practice.

The love from PM & Melee isn't because of the difficulty of execution for the ATs, but because of the control you gain over your character for mastering those ATs. It creates a much more dynamic and fast paced battle that can improve the experience of most hardcore smash players.

I love how Melee was designed and prefer watching Melee Competition.

In smash 4 has a neutral game in which both players have to commit more per actions than previous games, nearly everything can be punished in smash 4. Thus the game is based on baiting and reading to punish what your opponent may commit to using. (Essential, the only way to win is to outsmart)

Reads & Baits have always been a huge part of all smash games, but Melee's and PM's ATs allowed players a way to pressure and zone without having to commit as much. Landing a hit would almost always garantee followups, meaning great tech skill allowed for multiple mixups that could combo your opponent to death(even without having to read).

 

[guedes the brawler]

getting rid of Perfect Pivoting would make the game easier, imo.

 

[Signia]

Mew2King said it best. Smash 4 is fundamentals, you win by out thinking your opponent, not by having good tech skill.

No, he meant that in Smash 4, that's all you need. In Melee, you need both. Take that as you will, though, that could be a positive or a negative. After seeing the recent Armada vs. Leffen match, I see execution as a positive. Their mental states could be seen in their technique, which was beautiful :')

 

[dragontamer]

Smash is neither the most technical, nor least technical fighter.

Yeah yeah, Divekick has Kara-cancels, super-bars to keep track of and other stuff, but the innate design of Divekick makes it probably the lowest-execution "pure footsies" game.

On the other end of the scale, either MvC2 or Guilty Gear AC is probably the highest-exectuion fighter.

EDIT: Bringing it back to Smash makes this a happy medium. Smash at its core is fundamentally a movement game, with strong aerial combat and even strong movement options during the opponent's combos (DI and tons of tech options).

Still, its good to remember where Smash is in the continuum of modern fighters. Not the most technical, but certainly not the least technical either.

 

[PCHU]

I wouldn't say the subtraction of ATs makes the game harder, it just gives you less options, actually making the game much easier for those with decent reading skills (coupled with great evasive tactics, of course).
I'm not really sure why people are suddenly coming up with all of this since Brawl was pretty devoid of tech for the most part, save DACUS and the item throw thing.

The difference isn't in tech or lack of tech, it's the fact that properties in general are much, much different than they were before.
Altered ledge machnics, range deduction, higher (general) cooldown/startup on attacks, higher gravity, no grab armor, slower clashes, more specific hitboxes (in general), and so on.
This game does come off as a lot more basic because there are less options available (and yet more); coming from the standpoint of a Wario main, I can't shorthop dair safely anymore because of the increased landing lag, not to mention my previous nair -> fsmash is no longer possible because his fsmash is now far worse and nair has trouble chaining into its own second hit, so I have to come up with new ways to keep the pressure on as well as set up for KOs, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not always a good thing.
King Dedede isn't really a bad character, but his aerials are without a doubt more awkward than they previously were and the lack of Brawl bair really hurts his air game.
But these are specifics that I've experienced; in general, I've seen a lot less focus on up-close shield pressure since the decreased range makes it far more risky unless you have a disjointed hitbox, and there's either no incentive to approach off the stage or a huge increase in an incentive due to edgeguarding being the only way you can safely guarantee a KO from the ledge.

It's a shift in mechanics that rewards solid fundamentals; the game isn't completely balanced, either, although it is arguably the closest out of the 4 games, but some characters will have more problems in general than others have.
Not to mention some characters are much more simple to use now and don't come off as so complex -- I've seen a ton of Nesses and Luigis come out of nowhere because the way they work is a lot more approachable and their BnBs are easy to execute.

I don't think it's harder, but it can be a lot more tedious at times.
If you're a momentum-based player, it can disrupt you slightly because there seem to be more pauses in the game flow, making for a lot of waiting and opportunistic playing before much happens.
Then again, I'm just one person with my own experiences, so I can only speak from what I've seen and thought.

 

[Signia]

@ D dragontamer

I wish people from the FGC wouldn't say "Smash." There is no "Smash." There is SSB64, Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, etc. That's like lumping every Capcom fighter together. You wouldn't put Marvel and Street Fighter in the same category for execution difficulty, would you?

None of them are "happy mediums" in anything. SSB64 is hit stun combo city. Melee is far toward the end of the execution spectrum, but still probably behind GGAC and MvC2. Brawl and Smash 4 are far on the other end, unless some of the difficult tech discovered in Smash 4 turn out to be worth using.

 

[Roukiske]

IMO tech skill and mental skill are 2 different sets of skills and being good at one doesn't mean you are good at the other. In some games, one skill might be more dominant than the other. I think it's safe to say that the mental skill is much stronger in Smash4 at the moment.

Real life example I've come across: At a convention I watched some really high tech skill kids play Melee. I'm talking some fancy platform movement and moon walking everywhere. I didn't think I could win since my tech skill isn't as high, but I was very seasoned in competitive play. I wouldn't say that I played mentally better against them, maybe they weren't as smart in their decision making, but I beat them, quite easily to my surprise.

In Smash4, its kind of neat to think of what I want to do and actually be able to do it 100% of the time. Since this is the case, the mental skill plays such a bigger role in this game. Many players just throw things out and can be predictable. A one-track-mind player will have a hard time playing this game while in other games they might be able to get away with that to an extent.

So is this game harder? If you don't make very good decisions then yes this game is much harder because smarter players will just outsmart you. This is true with other games too, but I believe it goes double for Smash4. Just depends on the kind of player you are I guess.

 

[dragontamer]

You wouldn't put Marvel and Street Fighter in the same category for execution difficulty, would you?

Street Fighter is more of a standard fighter. I'd put all the SFs (SF2, SF3: Alpha, SF4) into the same category. Battle Fantasia, King of Fighters series, and Samurai Showdown series also are in this "standard fighter" category.

Once games start adding double-jumps, air-dashes, and other movement options, it becomes a "Hyper Fighter". Marvel, Guilty Gear, Arcana Hearts, Melty Blood into the same category.

I'd also put Tekken, DOA, Virtua Fighter, and Soul Calibur into its own category: 3D Fighters.

When you've played a lot of fighting games, you start to see patterns. However, Smash is Smash, it doesn't fit into any of the other categories of fighters. Smash has "Ring Outs" (from 3D Fighters), strong movement options (double-jumps like hyper-fighters). But Smash is missing combos, universal "meter" options, high/low mixups. In fact, where Frame Data is hugely important in the other games, its less important in all Smashes, because frame-advantage / static difference in Smash is a moving target, based on your opponent's HP.

With that said, the core concepts of Smash are more or less universal across the series. You use movement options to bait the opponent's attacks. Grab beats shield, shield beats attack, etc. etc. Sure, wave dashing is different between Melee and Smash4, but SF4 has Focus-Attack Dash Cancels while Street Fighter3 has Parries.

Despite the major differences between SF3 and SF4 (and between those and Samurai Showdown / King of Fighters), I'll still lump the whole Street Fighter series, King of Fighters, and Samurai Showdown series into the same category.

Smash however, is a category in of itself.

 

[Signia]

snip

I get it, they have clear differences that warrant different categories.

What I'm saying is that the difference between standard fighters and "hyper fighters" is like the difference between Melee/PM and Brawl/Smash 4. Wavedashing is at least as big a deal as airdashing. It completely changes the movement and flow of the game, that's why people seem obsessed with it. Melee/PM/SSB64 are not lacking combos, by the way.

 

[otter]

one cool thing about melee is how techs have different difficulties that sort of level you up over time, with the really hard stuff being less essential but can help you out against equally skilled opponents.

you can get by on wavedashing and l canceling, then maybe move on to wavelanding and shield dropping, then maybe even double shine and the like.

smash 4 is kind of like you learn the basics and then have to jump right into frame perfect inputs.

 

[κomıc]

Someone showed me how C. Falcon can dash-feint in place and I found myself falling for it almost all the time initially. There's some 'tech' in Smash 4 but it isn't the same from the past games, obviously. I guess we just need to adapt to the game for what it is and not what we expect.

I totally understand what the OP is saying, however. I'm looking forward in seeing what people find. That C. Falcon thing was really neat to see and unique.

 

[PCHU]

Someone showed me how C. Falcon can dash-feint in place and I found myself falling for it almost all the time initially. There's some 'tech' in Smash 4 but it isn't the same from the past games, obviously. I guess we just need to adapt to the game for what it is and not what we expect.

I totally understand what the OP is saying, however. I'm looking forward in seeing what people find. That C. Falcon thing was really neat to see and unique.

Did you ever find out how it was performed?
That sounds like fun.
There's the thing where you can barely tap the walk button repeatedly and your character will initiate a walk several times but hardly go anywhere (most effective with Wii Fit Trainer, it seems; I actually fell for it once and thought someone was about to dash at me), but this intrigues me more.

 

[κomıc]

Did you ever find out how it was performed?
That sounds like fun.
There's the thing where you can barely tap the walk button repeatedly and your character will initiate a walk several times but hardly go anywhere (most effective with Wii Fit Trainer, it seems; I actually fell for it once and thought someone was about to dash at me), but this intrigues me more.

Nah, I unfortunately did not ask him how he did it or paid attention to his controller. He's the only C. Falcon player I played so I'm not aware if other players use the same tactic. I think what you're talking about with Wii Fit Trainer is very similar to what I played against. Except it was a full dash but he was in one place. At one point he did it 3 times consecutively.

The baits tho.

 

[Myran]

Mew2King said it best. Smash 4 is fundamentals, you win by out thinking your opponent, not by having good tech skill.

I've been saying this for quite a while.

 

[digiholic]

Did you ever find out how it was performed?
That sounds like fun.
There's the thing where you can barely tap the walk button repeatedly and your character will initiate a walk several times but hardly go anywhere (most effective with Wii Fit Trainer, it seems; I actually fell for it once and thought someone was about to dash at me), but this intrigues me more.

Nah, I unfortunately did not ask him how he did it or paid attention to his controller. He's the only C. Falcon player I played so I'm not aware if other players use the same tactic. I think what you're talking about with Wii Fit Trainer is very similar to what I played against. Except it was a full dash but he was in one place. At one point he did it 3 times consecutively.

The baits tho.

It's actually just a failed perfect pivot, basically. You dash one way and flick it back the other way, longer than 1 frame, but not long enough to turn your dash into a run.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah, it's harder...


To have fun.

 

[Sonicjamareiz]

It's actually just a failed perfect pivot, basically. You dash one way and flick it back the other way, longer than 1 frame, but not long enough to turn your dash into a run.

I wouldn't say "Failed" maybe imperfect pivot because its still useful tech