Improving Up B (Could be applied to Fox)

[LinksDarkArrows]

I didn't know where else to post this, so I hope it'll be read and considered. I also apologize if this is something that was discussed before.

While I was watching a friend play around today I noticed that Falco and Fox's up B have a ton of start up time. Anybody who plays Falco and Fox should already know how much of a problem this is. If the Project M backroom is open to suggestions, I'd like to ask you consider shortening the start up time on these moves, but still keep it so players could hold down B and stall in the air for the duration of the B press for up to, say, 4/5ths of a second. If Falco and Fox had a little less predictability in their recovery I believe a good player could take advantage of that.

 

[krazyzyko]

Fox and Falco are probably top tier. They are the last characters in need of a buff.

 

[Zekk]

Uh the way your phrasing this the thing is if we buff something of a top tier we also have to nerf something for example if falco shoots two lasers in his short jump we would have to nerf hitsun or something so maybe if we give the firebird startup a boost in speed maybe we take away from its damage potential or range but we cannot necessarily do that with falco because he fire bird is already shorter then foxes by a long significant amount

 

[Stride]

If Falco and Fox had a little less predictability in their recovery I believe a good player could take advantage of that.

That's the problem; it would make Falco even better. Falco does not need a buff at all, considering how good he is (he's second on the official tier list in Melee and was barely nerfed at all in Project M; he can't have gotten that much worse). His recovery, while still bad, already has a lot of mixups that are impossible to cover all at once (at least when he's above the stage so his side-B is usable). I'm strongly of the opinion that he is not in need of more recovery options. I remember Mew2King or Mango talking about this somewhere; I'll edit in a link if I can find it.

He can shorten his Phantasm which can't be effectively reacted to (this means he can either go deep into the stage or onto a platform by using the long Phatasm, or shorten it and grab the ledge), and can angle his up-B to practically any angle he wants (sweetspot the ledge, go high and fall to the ledge, go to a platform, etc.). He can stall with his shine too (in a similar manner to what you're suggesting his up-B should do).

His recovery is still short, and gimpable if you can force him to up-B and then get out to attack him quick enough during the startup, so it's by no means a strong one, but it's not so bad as to justify buffing an already amazing character (what isn't good about Falco, other than his recovery and offstage game?).

If the Back Room make any changes to Fox or Falco they will definitely be nerfs.
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-fox-falco-change-discussion-please-read-1st-post.340338/

 

[Daftatt]

The only thing I could think of that would be reasonable is some armor on falco's up-b. Because right now you can just trade with it, he'll die and you will be popped up by the hit to safety.

Let's face it, the new characters in P:M have way more tools to gimp falco than the melee cast, and even they had a crap ton, so armor isn't terribly stupid.

 

[Zx2963]

They shouldn't buff it, maybe only make it startup faster then Fox (just for variation). His insane combos and the like merit his weak recovery

 

[CeLL]

They shouldn't buff it, maybe only make it startup faster then Fox (just for variation). His insane combos and the like merit his weak recovery

No. This would break the game. Shine -> Fire Bird is a ridiculous combo lol, don't make it possible.

But you are very correct with your second sentence.

 

[Zx2963]

No. This would break the game. Shine -> Fire Bird is a ridiculous combo lol, don't make it possible.

But you are very correct with your second sentence.

Not necessarily since you can't attack out of firebird. But it could be used as a combo ender like in melee, so the idea isn't too far out

 

[CeLL]

Not necessarily since you can't attack out of firebird. But it could be used as a combo ender like in melee, so the idea isn't too far out

You must not now how strong of an attack Fire Bird is. http://youtu.be/8XgJuRZ3dfI?t=4m20s Remember that this is Falco, and even Fox's usmash doesn't kill him until like 110%. I don't know the actual percent, but it looks like it would kill (Falco) at like 100% at that height.

 

[Zx2963]

You must not now how strong of an attack Fire Bird is. http://youtu.be/8XgJuRZ3dfI?t=4m20s Remember that this is Falco, and even Fox's usmash doesn't kill him until like 110%. I don't know the actual percent, but it looks like it would kill (Falco) at like 100% at that height.

I'm not sure how increasing the startup would make it more killer, the lag and helplessness would still be their. Also that was near the top of the screen, Fox's uair can kill like at 80% at that height

 

[CeLL]

I'm not sure how increasing the startup would make it more killer, the lag and helplessness would still be their. Also that was near the top of the screen, Fox's uair can kill like at 80% at that height

They shouldn't buff it, maybe only make it startup faster then Fox (just for variation). His insane combos and the like merit his weak recovery

Making it faster would make it combo at more percents. Currently it only combos at very specific percents. If you kill your opponent with it, it doesn't matter how much lag or helplessness there is afterward. Example: Rest.

Yes, Fox's uair would kill like Marth at 80%, but it's like 100% for Falco. Besides, you can't say that something is weaker than Fox's uair (one of the best kill moves in the game) and therefore not strong.

 

[Zx2963]

Making it faster would make it combo at more percents. Currently it only combos at very specific percents. If you kill your opponent with it, it doesn't matter how much lag or helplessness there is afterward. Example: Rest.

Yes, Fox's uair would kill like Marth at 80%, but it's like 100% for Falco. Besides, you can't say that something is weaker than Fox's uair (one of the best kill moves in the game) and therefore not strong.

Even if it does combo at more percents, anyone can DI out of it. I don't see how a minor buff would hurt the balance.

 

[CeLL]

Even if it does combo at more percents, anyone can DI out of it. I don't see how a minor buff would hurt the balance.

You cannot "DI out of it." You can aim it any way you want. It doesn't matter what direction your shine sends them, you just point it at them.

 

[Zx2963]

You cannot "DI out of it." You can aim it any way you want. It doesn't matter what direction your shine sends them, you just point it at them.

True, but at higher percents (and lower), shine sends them farther away, so following up is still difficult. This move definitely though does NOT need any kind of armor.

 

[CeLL]

True, but at higher percents (and lower), shine sends them farther away, so following up is still difficult. This move definitely though does NOT need any kind of armor.

That's why it so rarely combos right now. Make it faster and Falco can jump before he does it.

 

[Zx2963]

That's why it so rarely combos right now. Make it faster and Falco can jump before he does it.

Considering his recovery is crap, a faster startup balances his recovery which is even worst then Toon Link

 

[CeLL]

Considering his recovery is crap, a faster startup balances his recovery which is even worst then Toon Link

Falco doesn't need recovery. They could literally remove his up-B all together and not replace it with anything and he would still be top tier. What he especially doesn't need is killing power that rivals Fox's. That would break the game.

 

[Zx2963]

Falco doesn't need recovery. They could literally remove his up-B all together and not replace it with anything and he would still be top tier. What he especially doesn't need is killing power that rivals Fox's. That would break the game.

Well how about weakening the knockback of the move, and just buffing the speed at which it comes out. Either that, or nerf Fox's side B, Falco's should be longer then Fox's imo

 

[CeLL]

Well how about weakening the knockback of the move, and just buffing the speed at which it comes out. Either that, or nerf Fox's side B, Falco's should be longer then Fox's imo

Why should Phantasm be longer than Illusion? It already deals more damage and is a meteor smash. And as previously stated, Falco doesn't really need recovery.

There's no point in shortening Illusion anyway. Fox has bad recovery compared to 95% of PM.

 

[Zx2963]

Why should Phantasm be longer than Illusion? It already deals more damage and is a meteor smash. And as previously stated, Falco doesn't really need recovery.

There's no point in shortening Illusion anyway. Fox has bad recovery compared to 95% of PM.

Because it was that way in Melee? And every character needs a recovery, notice that all the characters have a good recovery game because half the battle takes place on stage, the other half is getting back to it. Because of this, Falco is indirectly nerfed in that previously getting knocked of stage was goodbye, but now other chars can more easily get back to it. Fox in my opinion should have his side-B nerfed in range, then I'd be fine

 

[CeLL]

Because it was that way in Melee? And every character needs a recovery, notice that all the characters have a good recovery game because half the battle takes place on stage, the other half is getting back to it. Because of this, Falco is indirectly nerfed in that previously getting knocked of stage was goodbye, but now other chars can more easily get back to it. Fox in my opinion should have his side-B nerfed in range, then I'd be fine

Umm, no. Phantasm was not longer than Illusion in Melee. I should know, I main them both.

So you're saying that Falco, who has terrible recovery, needs a recovery buff to match the other characters, but Fox, who has just slightly better recovery, needs to have a recovery nerf? Anyway, why would you buff a top-tier?

That's the thing about Falco, though. His game is 50% onstage and 50% onstage watching his opponent try to recover and edgeguarding them. His fantastic onstage game (arguably the best in both Melee and PM) makes up for his near lack of an offstage game. While he is almost doomed to die offstage, it is very hard to put him there, due to his overwhelmingly strong onstage abilities. Same thing with Fox. The other recovery-heavy characters are clearly weaker onstage, or else they would not be recovering so much.

 

[Zx2963]

Umm, no. Phantasm was not longer than Illusion in Melee. I should know, I main them both.

So you're saying that Falco, who has terrible recovery, needs a recovery buff to match the other characters, but Fox, who has just slightly better recovery, needs to have a recovery nerf? Anyway, why would you buff a top-tier?


That's the thing about Falco, though. His game is 50% onstage and 50% onstage watching his opponent try to recover and edgeguarding them. His fantastic onstage game (arguably the best in both Melee and PM) makes up for his near lack of an offstage game. While he is almost doomed to die offstage, it is very hard to put him there, due to his overwhelmingly strong onstage abilities. Same thing with Fox. The other recovery-heavy characters are clearly weaker onstage, or else they would not be recovering so much.

I was wrong actually, Falco's Side B was actually shorter then Fox's Illusion, my mistake.Also P:M buffed Fox's throws, uair, and dair. Falco has received almost no buffs except certain AT's from Brawl (which are more useless then anything else). I never said he had to match other characters, but a speedup would not do to much harm, since his recovery would still suck. At least reducing the knockback would make it less of a combo move

EDIT: Fox's onstage game is as ridiculous as Falco. He can easily waveshine ×3 > Up smash for a free 40-50% damage, yet look at his recovery. Fox either needs a nerf or Falco a tiny recovery buff to even things out

 

[Stride]

I was wrong actually, Falco's Side B was actually shorter then Fox's Illusion, my mistake.Also P:M buffed Fox's throws, uair, and dair. Falco has received almost no buffs except certain AT's from Brawl (which are more useless then anything else). I never said he had to match other characters, but a speedup would not do to much harm, since his recovery would still suck. At least reducing the knockback would make it less of a combo move

EDIT: Fox's onstage game is as ridiculous as Falco. He can easily waveshine ×3 > Up smash for a free 40-50% damage, yet look at his recovery. Fox either needs a nerf or Falco a tiny recovery buff to even things out

What you're talking about is improving one of the best characters in the game. Even a small improvement to a character this good can push them into the "broken" category. If Falco needs an adjustment as badly as you're suggesting, then you should be arguing that almost all of the cast also seriously need buffs, since they're even worse than he is.

Also Fox has definitely not had any of the direct buffs you mentioned; both spacies have been nerfed (see this: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-fox-falco-change-discussion-please-read-1st-post.340338). Did you get that information off the wiki? Because it's wrong (I think I'll go edit it actually); aside from universal system differences and the ability to release the shine during the hitstun suffered when reflecting projectiles with it (which was to stop shine lock from happening), the only changes to Fox have been nerfs: removal of shine invincibility, laser damage decaying with distance, and opponents always falling over when shined against a wall (to prevent infinites).

How do you think the balance of he game would change if Falco was buffed? Is the game not well balanced enough because Falco is too bad? Falco players are not struggling by any means.

 

[CeLL]

I was wrong actually, Falco's Side B was actually shorter then Fox's Illusion, my mistake.Also P:M buffed Fox's throws, uair, and dair. Falco has received almost no buffs except certain AT's from Brawl (which are more useless then anything else). I never said he had to match other characters, but a speedup would not do to much harm, since his recovery would still suck. At least reducing the knockback would make it less of a combo move

EDIT: Fox's onstage game is as ridiculous as Falco. He can easily waveshine ×3 > Up smash for a free 40-50% damage, yet look at his recovery. Fox either needs a nerf or Falco a tiny recovery buff to even things out

Fox was not buffed in PM. Period. And Falco isn't related to Brawl Falco at all. He's Melee Falco. And Fox is Melee Fox, if you didn't get that.

(Also, waveshine 3x -> usmash (a) is very difficult, (b) only does like 30% max, and (c) is only possible on Zelda, Link, and Peach)

 

[Zx2963]

Fox was not buffed in PM. Period. And Falco isn't related to Brawl Falco at all. He's Melee Falco. And Fox is Melee Fox, if you didn't get that.

(Also, waveshine 3x -> usmash (a) is very difficult, (b) only does like 30% max, and (c) is only possible on Zelda, Link, and Peach)

Actually its also possible on Snake and other characters around his weight.

What you're talking about is improving one of the best characters in the game. Even a small improvement to a character this good can push them into the "broken" category. If Falco needs an adjustment as badly as you're suggesting, then you should be arguing that almost all of the cast also seriously need buffs, since they're even worse than he is.

Also Fox has definitely not had any of the direct buffs you mentioned; both spacies have been nerfed (see this: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-fox-falco-change-discussion-please-read-1st-post.340338). Did you get that information off the wiki? Because it's wrong (I think I'll go edit it actually); aside from universal system differences and the ability to release the shine during the hitstun suffered when reflecting projectiles with it (which was to stop shine lock from happening), the only changes to Fox have been nerfs: removal of shine invincibility, laser damage decaying with distance, and opponents always falling over when shined against a wall (to prevent infinites).

How do you think the balance of he game would change if Falco was buffed? Is the game not well balanced enough because Falco is too bad? Falco players are not struggling by any means.

I think the game is balanced as is, but I am sorry for relying on that wiki and not my knowledge -_-
But I agree with you on that point, Falco is already top tier and doesn't really need any buffs (even recovery wise, though we all know as Falco players we long for that day hat will never come, when we actually have a decent recovery).

 

[CeLL]

Actually its also possible on Snake and other characters around his weight.

It's actually about traction, not weight. To be honest it could work on Snake. I don't actually know his traction (or the traction of a lot of Brawl-only characters). The ones I said were the only ones in Melee.

 

[Booster]

I would think Marth and Roy are need of better recoveries, they're the worst in the game

 

[Zx2963]

I would think Marth and Roy are need of better recoveries, they're the worst in the game

Marth's Recovery is amazing, it's even a KO move. Roy's is OK too, remember their Side B recovery, both of these are very good in conjunction.

It's actually about traction, not weight. To be honest it could work on Snake. I don't actually know his traction (or the traction of a lot of Brawl-only characters). The ones I said were the only ones in Melee.

I've learned something new today

 

[Booster]

Marth's Recovery is amazing, it's even a KO move. Roy's is OK too, remember their Side B recovery, both of these are very good in conjunction.

I've learned something new today

Did they improve Marth's Recovery? I remember it being terrible on Brawl.

 

[CeLL]

Did they improve Marth's Recovery? I remember it being terrible on Brawl.

PM Marth is taken from Melee, not Brawl. The answer to your question is no, his recovery is better in Brawl than PM.

Marth's Recovery is amazing, it's even a KO move. Roy's is OK too, remember their Side B recovery, both of these are very good in conjunction.

Marth's recovery is okay, but it's not a kill move. Reverse DS is a kill move, not a recovery move. Normal DS is a recovery move, but not strong enough to kill (unless you get stage spiked, which is easily preventable). Roy's recovery is terrible. His side B doesn't help like Marth's, and Blazer is even shorter than DS. (DS = Dolphin Slash = Marth's up B, if you didn't know)

 

[Stride]

Roy's recovery is terrible. His side B doesn't help like Marth's, and Blazer is even shorter than DS. (DS = Dolphin Slash = Marth's up B, if you didn't know)

I don't know; Roy's recovery is short, but it's harder to edgeguard than Marth's. He can angle his Blazer, it knocks you off the ledge throughout almost the entire animation since it hits multiple times, and it stalls for a really long time at the end of the move which makes the timing for edgehogging it quite strict (from what I can tell it's really hard to edgehog it using just the invincibility frames from your ledge roll below 100%; you need grab the ledge immediately before he uses it and then try to roll when Roy's sword is already touching you); it's hard to do it right when he can mix up the angle and stall with his jump/side-B. Also it can hit really deep into the stage from underneath, which is important sometimes (still not really sure when; it makes it hard to down tilt edgeguard with Marth but it might not be a problem for competent Marth players).

 

[Zx2963]

PM Marth is taken from Melee, not Brawl. The answer to your question is no, his recovery is better in Brawl than PM.



Marth's recovery is okay, but it's not a kill move. Reverse DS is a kill move, not a recovery move. Normal DS is a recovery move, but not strong enough to kill (unless you get stage spiked, which is easily preventable). Roy's recovery is terrible. His side B doesn't help like Marth's, and Blazer is even shorter than DS. (DS = Dolphin Slash = Marth's up B, if you didn't know)

Normal and Reverse DS ar the same strength, considering you must hit with the start-up frames for the most knockback. Reverse DS was a kill move in Melee, but both work in in PM. Roy's actually not so bad considering as stride said it's harder to edge guard. Also if you DI really well, you can live till 150, and make it back to stage.

 

[CeLL]

Normal and Reverse DS ar the same strength, considering you must hit with the start-up frames for the most knockback. Reverse DS was a kill move in Melee, but both work in in PM. Roy's actually not so bad considering as stride said it's harder to edge guard. Also if you DI really well, you can live till 150, and make it back to stage.

Same damage =/= same knockback

 

[CeLL]

I don't know; Roy's recovery is short, but it's harder to edgeguard than Marth's. He can angle his Blazer, it knocks you off the ledge throughout almost the entire animation since it hits multiple times, and it stalls for a really long time at the end of the move which makes the timing for edgehogging it quite strict (from what I can tell it's really hard to edgehog it using just the invincibility frames from your ledge roll below 100%; you need grab the ledge immediately before he uses it and then try to roll when Roy's sword is already touching you); it's hard to do it right when he can mix up the angle and stall with his jump/side-B. Also it can hit really deep into the stage from underneath, which is important sometimes (still not really sure when; it makes it hard to down tilt edgeguard with Marth but it might not be a problem for competent Marth players).

Blazer is not difficult to edgeguard. If you can't time ledgerolls right, practice. The angling only helps to ride walls, which can only make it about as long as DS. If Roy stalls before he Blazers every time, read it and go offstage and dair him.

 

[Zx2963]

Same damage =/= same knockback

I mean that in Brawl, normal DS was as strong as reversed DS on startup frames. Marth retained that ability in PM

Blazer is not difficult to edgeguard. If you can't time ledgerolls right, practice. The angling only helps to ride walls, which can only make it about as long as DS. If Roy stalls before he Blazers every time, read it and go offstage and dair him.

I have no problems with it, but I know when I do play Roy, people suck at edge guarding it. Plus, its better to bair him on ledge then anything

 

[CeLL]

I mean that in Brawl, normal DS was as strong as reversed DS on startup frames. Marth retained that ability in PM

I don't play Marth in PM (I do in Melee), but I am 98% sure that this is incorrect, and I know for a fact that Blazer is stronger reversed in PM.

 

[Zx2963]

I don't play Marth in PM (I do in Melee), but I am 98% sure that this is incorrect, and I know for a fact that Blazer is stronger reversed in PM.

Blazer maybe, not DS.
Proof:

 

[GeZ]

I think this thread needs to stop getting bumped. It wasn't pertinent to begin with and now it's off topic as well. Spacies don't need/ deserve buffs. The point is obvious and has been made.

 

[CeLL]

I think this thread needs to stop getting bumped. It wasn't pertinent to begin with and now it's off topic as well. Spacies don't need/ deserve buffs. The point is obvious and has been made.

This,

Blazer maybe, not DS.
Proof:

but Falco's ftilt kills that high lol

 

[Zx2963]

This,



but Falco's ftilt kills that high lol

Are you sure you don't me dtilt? Ftilt hasmt killed anyone at that percent in any of my games .-.

I think this thread needs to stop getting bumped. It wasn't pertinent to begin with and now it's off topic as well. Spacies don't need/ deserve buffs. The point is obvious and has been made.

Agreed