Improving Movement

[Double Helix]

Maybe this is supposed to go into the character discussion, but I am having a lot of trouble improving my mobility and movement speed. The character I use is Ness. If this is in another thread, please link me to it. Otherwise, I would accept any tips on improving my movement. Thanks all.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

I have no idea about Ness specific stuff but generally you should:

Know the range of your character! (You can learn all the tricks in the world but it wont matter if you don't know how to use them)

Make sure you can L cancel consistently (on shield, after hitting a character, whiffing)
Learn to wavedash if you havent already (out of shield, wavelanding on the ground or platforms, specific lengths etc.)
Practice loops around platforms like a circle on screen
Practice ledge canceling your moves

Just make sure you are in full control of your movement at all times

Hope that helps. Maybe pick up a spacie just to get your fingers used to tech skill.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The character I use is Ness.

Well, there's your problem.

 

[Double Helix]

Well, there's your problem.

While it may be true, I enjoy playing as him. I can somewhat play as Fox, but I would much rather put time into Ness. He is more fun to me. Didn't you make the mistake of trying to play Kirby before maining Sheik?

 

[Massive]

Ness can actually get some pretty good movement going, his wavedash is very long and his jump options are impressive.

The easiest way to be more fluid with any character is to practice wavelanding. It not only makes you look cool when you land, it opens up a large amount of options on every character (ledge tactics, spacing games, stage movement improvements, etc). Ness in particular is heavily boosted by good wavelanding abilities, and it lets him move in unintuitive ways that can be reasonably effective.

 

[Griffard]

If you're sticking Ness for now, check out those sexy wavelands by Vudu that Massive posted, also really try to understand how to use his double jump cancel. Practicing sweetspotting/just grabbing ledge with his Up-B at tons of different angles will help you too.

 

[oukd]

tip to improving movement - just do a lot of movement

Spoiler

most of this has already been said but
- (this is probably most important) learn dashdance thresholds (max dd distance/time) & become comfortable with dd control/doing things out of dd
- wavedash/waveland distances + moving out of them asap
- consistent shorthop/fullhop control

particularly for ness
- become comfortable with controlling the doublejump arc
- learn how aerial timing during dj will change your momentum
- learn frames you can fastfall asap out of djc aerials (both from shffls or midscreen)
- get used to moving around platforms with djs/wavelands/edgecancels
- up-b control
- watch massive's link cuz that **** cray

 

[KirbyKaze]

While it may be true, I enjoy playing as him. I can somewhat play as Fox, but I would much rather put time into Ness. He is more fun to me. Didn't you make the mistake of trying to play Kirby before maining Sheik?

Maining Kirby wasn't a mistake. I learned a lot from my time playing him and it helped me understand the game a lot better. I also think it made me generally more appreciative of what my character could do when I did make the transition to a better one.

I'm only teasing about Ness being the issue.

 

[Bones0]

Watch Hbox's Ness vs. Armada's Young Link. They are really long matches, but that just means you get more minutes of good movement practices, and Armada throwing a lot of projectiles made it that much more important for Hbox to have good movement.

Ness is top tier.

 

[Double Helix]

Ness's learning curve is monstrous. It requires a lot of losing for sure. Losing to people that you are better than. Thanks for movement tips. Time to clock in and put in some mad hours.

 

[oukd]

Losing to people that you are better than.

even though it often feels that way, its not a good mentality...your character = your decision. as far as the rest of the world is concerned, your performance with your character = your skill, no johns

if there is a character that you *could* be doing better with, then technically it's your own mistake for not making the best character decision - you decided to become a worse player by picking ness. i dont like saying 'mistake' because it implies you should only play to win, but within the context of being the better player...then yes, it is a mistake

of course we all like to play to our own constraints/rules for fun/hype/self-challenge/etc. and by all means we should, or the game would become kind of stale. but at the end of the day, if one player makes the decisions he should be making to win within the constraints of the game, and the 2nd player says 'i could be doing <insert description>, but i dont want to, but if i did id be the best,' very few could say that the 2nd player is better if he loses to the 1st player

the 2nd player is cooler though

 

[BTmoney]

I have no issue with someone being objective and acknowleding that they lost/lose games because they play a bad character. Why deny it when it's true? Unless you are playing Fox (or maybe other characters depending on match ups) you should feel as if your character has design flaws that are ultimately hurting your game.

I have some scrubby friends and they can beat my Pichu. They beat me cuz I played Pichu, I can 4 stock them with probably 7 or so characters so I am obviously the better player. Think of it that way.

Mango went Falcon vs Westballz @ AMT, Mango lost the set. He literally lost because he went Falcon. There is no doubt in my mind that he would not have lost if he went Fox. He didn't exactly take that game too seriously but he still lost to someone who he is better than because he played a "bad" character.

of course we all like to play to our own constraints/rules for fun/hype/self-challenge/etc. and by all means we should, or the game would become kind of stale. but at the end of the day, if one player makes the decisions he should be making to win within the constraints of the game, and the 2nd player says 'i could be doing <insert description>, but i dont want to, but if i did id be the best,' very few could say that the 2nd player is better if he loses to the 1st player

the 2nd player is cooler though

Lack of evidence does not imply lack of existence, player two could certainly be better but of course that is not inherently obvious nor is it implied.

Next tournament you go to whether or not you make it into bracket or you do it in pools go Mewtwo and you'll probably lose to someone you know you can beat with your main and you'll probably say, "wow I can beat this scrub, *insert name here* but mewtwo is so bad, he sucks, and is holding me back."

And you'll say that phrase exactly . This might sound pointed but it's not. I just think it's true and something everyone should understand. I feel like you know this (but don't really want to stand by it) though when I look at your word choice but yeah.


tl;dr
At the end of the day no one wants to hear anyone john about their character, including myself, but it definitely makes sense for the better to lose because they are playing a bad character and there is nothing wrong with the better playing acknowledging it, because it's true. Get what I'm saying?

 

[oukd]

yeah youre definitely right lol, i just think that its not a good mindset in terms of improvement

i guess that its not as applicable for general skill in your example - in a 1v1 match if i pick mewtwo and lose then ill still say the opponent outplayed me since character choice is part of the match. on the other hand if im trying to actually main mewtwo even though my mewtwo is probably the worst in the world, then itll carry over into my overall skill - im consistently making the same "mistake" (i seriously hate using this term) and thus my general skill is lower as a result. the rest of the world doesnt care about my intent 99% of the time, or whether i do something knowing its a bad idea...at most it will be acknowledged, but the world mainly just focus on results

either way ~_~ i shouldnt be talking about good/bad mindset since everyone's different. do what makes you feel good, and such

 

[Massive]

The one big thing to remember about being a Ness main is that one day someone will say "wow, that's a really good Ness" and then pick Sheik and spoil everything.

 

[Jockmaster]

Ness doesn't really have that high of a learning curve, he just requires a certain knack to play. Plus besides his decent aerials and movement options, he is a horrible character. If you use him, you go in to the match knowing that you are using Mr. Cantgrab****inganything. I still do use my pocket Ness quite a bit (he's my low tier love <3), but I would never john about how he can't recover or do anything in the neutral game besides spam fair.

BUT, you can surprisingly beat a lot of people strictly off the sheer jankness and power of some of his moveset. Drop Kick of Justice (bair) always seems to catch people off guard for some reason. Then like Massive said, someone picks Sheik and NO FUN starts.

 

[ElloEddy]

play a spacie...get technical as **** ..then movement with everyone else is easy ....i say keep using fox as well cause your gonna have a long journey with ness

 

[Jockmaster]

I honestly believe you could get good at this game without ever touching a spacie

Not saying I don't use them (fox2gud) but there are multiple viable viable characters who are completely different (ICs for example)

 

[Double Helix]

Well what I meant by a player that I am better than is a player that I have a higher tech skill and overall...wait for it...fundamentals than. But seriously Sheik is not a fun matchup from what I have seen. I am not trying to john using my character. Forever no-johns. I just know that I am at a point right now that I can best optimize Ness due to movement and his deceptive speed. I am good as other characters (though still a scrub overall), but if I were to post videos (though I don't have a capture card or other recording device) I think you would all agree my Ness is cleaner and better than any of the rest of the cast (regardless of win rate).

As for the Sheik matchup, I guess I will have to be like Axe and make the matchup look overall less bad.

dkuo, for me the loss to a player I am better than just fuels me to make the result show the truth. So it is not a horrible mindset in my case, though I can see where you are coming from.

 

[SaggyG]

A good way to improve your movement is to play adventure mode. Don't focus on the fighting, just focus on getting through the stages as fast and efficiently as you can. No C-Stick sucks though, so if you want to mix in aerials just throw in nairs. Of course it's better to just practice on stages, but I get bored easily so I have to do this.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Maybe this is supposed to go into the character discussion, but I am having a lot of trouble improving my mobility and movement speed. The character I use is Ness. If this is in another thread, please link me to it. Otherwise, I would accept any tips on improving my movement. Thanks all.

You're in luck, Mofo just posted about 70 Ness specific exercises to do (12+ for each aerial and some more cool stuff) just for improving movement. Stack that on top of your universal Melee techniques (OoS options, platform drops, edge cancels, etc) and that'll be more than enough to get you going.

Have fun.

 

[chenjesu]

There's no link, but I looked at it and it looks really good. practice those imo.

 

[Double Helix]

My movement has (seemingly) improved quite a bit. It won't be that good for awhile because I don't have that many good people to play against and don't have time for many smashfests (school johns). But I have at least noticed improvement, my biggest problem now is to know when to dash-dance and when to wavedash. As Ness wavedashing seems like the better option majority of the time because you want to face the direction that gives you the safest option. I have been playing with Fox and Ganondorf just to get a look at some different movement options to help me recognize different situations (is it a detriment to use different characters?). Thanks for the heads-up. I will probably look at Mofo's stuff and then attempt it at a time that isn't three in the morning.

If anybody thinks of anything else, feel free to post.

 

[Double Helix]

Double post. Sorry x.x

I have been getting much faster with Ness through hard work (thanks for the help)...but now I am having trouble with a simple movement thing. Because Ness has such a good wavedash movement, I am using that as my primary way to get around, dashing only to dash-dance and JC grab. But when I am wavedashing, I am usually shielding or light shielding at the end of it, which is fine if I want to wavedash again because I just jump OoS and wavedash again. But otherwise it hinders my options a little, because doing tilts OoS is a little awkward and I have to wait for the shield to go away. Any tips on either wavedashing techniques or just improving my wavedash speed so that this is not a problem?

 

[bearsfan092]

If you're still shielding, it means you need to get off whatever trigger you use to wavedash faster. I used to have that problem, and what I did was go in training mode and just wavedash across FD. The thing is, slow it down (not game speed, your input speed) until you can make it all the way across and back three times without your shield coming up. I did this at about half speed when I first started. Then pick it up to 60% speed, repeat. 70%, repeat. If your shield comes up, lower the speed and try again.

 

[Double Helix]

If you're still shielding, it means you need to get off whatever trigger you use to wavedash faster. I used to have that problem, and what I did was go in training mode and just wavedash across FD. The thing is, slow it down (not game speed, your input speed) until you can make it all the way across and back three times without your shield coming up. I did this at about half speed when I first started. Then pick it up to 60% speed, repeat. 70%, repeat. If your shield comes up, lower the speed and try again.

Thanks dude. I just watched your stream. As Fox against Ice Climbers go shine happy. In any case, I would have enjoyed you paying a bit more attention to the chat. In any case, I am in this for the long haul. Ness is so much fun. I had people convinced at school that he was high tier. It was funny to let them believe that for a few minutes. Anyways, I guess if I end up having more problems I will just revive this thread.

 

[bearsfan092]

Yeah thanks for the advice. I've literally never played the ICs in my life before today, and if he actually mained them I would have been even more wrecked than I was. I just started streaming and always forget to watch the chat, but I appreciate you tuning in!

 

[Double Helix]

Not a problem. I just really need to get speed up and that shielding thing was a problem. It is hard to get so good at this game. But low-tier hero is what I want to become. So I have to get good enough to earn the hero part. Otherwise I am just a low-tier dummy XD

 

[4 Aces]

You're in luck, Mofo just posted about 70 Ness specific exercises to do (12+ for each aerial and some more cool stuff) just for improving movement. Stack that on top of your universal Melee techniques (OoS options, platform drops, edge cancels, etc) and that'll be more than enough to get you going.

Have fun.

The link doesn't work.

 

[ElloEddy]

I honestly believe you could get good at this game without ever touching a spacie

Not saying I don't use them (fox2gud) but there are multiple viable viable characters who are completely different (ICs for example)

shiek and peach...you dont need to ever touch a spacie to be good with them....

 

[Double Helix]

I am probably going to only be touching spacies to teach people who wanna play spacies and add to the community. Since I know how they work, I can teach and show them what is good and they can work on execution. Otherwise I don't have enough fun to put the time into it.

 

[hectohertz]

ask mofo


no but seriously, ask mofo

 

[Myztek]

Practice Dash Dancing. A lot. It's important to increase accuracy in your movement of the left thumbstick, and dash-dancing will help you with that.

Practice dash-dancing and short hopping from one spot to another and continuing the dash dance on landing.

Practice doing anything from a dash dance. See how quickly you can crouch into a standing move out of it. See how well you can do moves out of the frames where the character is standing in the middle of the dash dance, and practice aiming aerials out of dash-dances.

Get good at wave-landing and moving from platform to platform as seamlessly as you can. Run off platforms, land on the next with a waveland, and follow up with a move or continuing your movement. Be able to control your character precisely even when you are moving your quickest.