• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

I'm not saying panic, but...

Eltrion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
66
Location
North Bay, Ontario, Canada
First impressions say ness is pretty bad now. Fire is much worse, Thunder2 has lost most of its on stage utility due to it not being safe anymore if you end it onstage ...

Like he's not garbage but I get the feeling that I'd be better maining someone else.

Magnet feels better, but perhaps thats just because everything else feels a bit worse.

I'll have to try him in tournament to say for sure, but I think I'm missing a substantial chunk of my previous threat when I look at the nerfs on Mario, Fox, or Roy.
 

ilysm

sleepy
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
648
Location
Cleveland, OH/Providence, RI
The official change list says nothing about changes to Magnet. Just the PK Fire nerf with the changes they made to it and the PKT2 nerf. It looks like DThrow took a nerf as well. I'm surprised, and a little confused. It's not as though Ness needed a nerf in this iteration (at least not that I could tell, someone correct me if I'm wrong). What could have influenced this decision? It's like it came out of nowhere.

Here's the full list. Most of it seems fairly inconsequential.




Tilts
-Forward Tilt changed to have less endlag 35 frames -> 28 frames and hit at a more horizontal angle 361 -> 34, BKB slightly reduced 12 -> 10.

Aerials
-Up Air animation edited slightly to more accurately match Melee.

Throws
-Down Throw knockback changed such that characters fly further as their percent increases. KBG 70 -> 80, BKB 85 -> 78.

Specials
-Forward Special (PK Fire)
--No longer activates on shield.
--Initial hit damage raised from 0 to 8 and now has same KB as the pillar. Victim can no longer shield between the fireball hit and the first pillar hit.
--Pillar hits changed in duration from 100 frames to 45, but time between pillar pulses is slightly reduced. Pillar pulse damage reduced from 3 to 1, but can no longer be reflected.
--Pillar gravity increased so it prevents whiffing when aerial pk fire hits some characters' heads for the first few pulses.
-Up Special (PK Thunder)
--Bolt no longer hits Shy Guys and Smashville balloon.
--Can no longer reverse ledge grab after falling from a missed PK Thunder 1
--PK Thunder 2 now always go into 20-frame landing lag instead of variable time dependent on height, but can now properly edge-cancel.

Others
-Dash Attack 3rd hit extended slightly to match Melee range.
-Spotdodge, fixed an error that had invincibility ending 1 frame earlier and having IASA 1 frame earlier than normal
-Hitlag normalized on the following attacks: Dash Attack hit2, Forward Air final hit, Up-b Startup, and PK Thunder 2.
 
Last edited:

Eisen

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Planet Tallon IV
NNID
AndroidPolaris
lol, nobody was safe from nerfs in this build, not even Marth and the spacies. But overall, I feel like he got a buff when you consider everyone else's nerfs and his other buffs.

Also, that can't be the full list, because magnet was, if nothing, else, reduced in size, and pretty sure it was tweaked to function a lot more like Lucas'. Also, fair actually combos into stuff because it doesn't send people flying. That doesn't strike me as something I'd notice and have it not be an actual change.
 

Eltrion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
66
Location
North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Yeah overall, I think he didn't really move down in the tier list, but then, he didn't really move up.

Main thing is that I have to rework a huge section of my playstyle, and gutsy ness mode (throwing out PKT2 against mediocre players) is now just unsafe.

After playing with him a little more, I'd say my initial reaction was too harsh, and while this is a nerf it's not a net nerf.

It will however force me to actually try in Pools and not do stupid risky stuff. It makes him less fun to play, but it will probably make me a better player in the long run.
 
Last edited:

Zatchiel

a little slice of heaven 🍰
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
11,088
Location
Georgia
NNID
Zatchiel
Switch FC
SW-0915-4119-3504
PK Fire feels a lot more centered around reading approaches or shield drops to me, I don't really mind it not activating on shields anymore or even its decreased lifespan after activation. Down throw certainly feels weirder with its new knockback scaling (?) but I can still usually get a b-air or f-air depending on their DI at low/mid percents. Otherwise, it sets up aerial chases potentially keeping them closer to you than up throw.

As for PKT/PKT2 they ****ed up. Badly. When they removed the ability for him to grab the ledge facing away from it while in his PKT animation (a bit after it disappears), they also removed the ability for him to sweetspot the ledge backwards with PKT2. I'm not sure about you guys, but I relied on that sweetspot quite often for recovering safely, or even just recovering from beneath the stage. Finding this out today bothered me.

If magnet has been tweaked any I haven't noticed. I use it a lot too.
 
Last edited:

Eltrion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
66
Location
North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Yeah PKT 2. If it were the old one I'd be so much happier. I guess we can chalk this up as a recovery nerf. I would have preferred a shorter one, as opposed to what they did to it though...
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
It doesn't matter to me since I always sweetspot (play against a Lucas player all the time) or fake edge cancel, which will now be real. Dash attack having increased range is good and pkf seems useful still, you just need to react faster.
 

Slaudial

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
46
3DS FC
0233-0174-7067
Warning Received
Oh nnooooooo Ness players can't cheese it with (essentially) unblockable PK Fires that deal like 25 damage! Run for the hills!!!!!

Harr harr harr! Garbage in, garbage out. That sort of thing belongs in Marvel.
 

Zatchiel

a little slice of heaven 🍰
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
11,088
Location
Georgia
NNID
Zatchiel
Switch FC
SW-0915-4119-3504
It doesn't matter to me since I always sweetspot (play against a Lucas player all the time) or fake edge cancel, which will now be real. Dash attack having increased range is good and pkf seems useful still, you just need to react faster.
Sweetspot from above? I like enticing my opponent to try ledgeguarding me by recovering low sometimes. If they take the bait, they're offstage and I make it onstage before they do, leaving me with control of the stage or at least putting them in an unfavorable position. If they don't come offstage, I can still sweetspot and just mess around with their expectations. That was a lot easier to do with recovering from underneath the stage, but that's just an aspect of my playstyle (or rather, was).

I liked the increased range on dash attack too. I think I was a little spammy with it today actually. That last hit can set up some fun strings.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
Recovering from low is almost always bad for Ness. I definitely don't recommend it against most characters.
 

Zatchiel

a little slice of heaven 🍰
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
11,088
Location
Georgia
NNID
Zatchiel
Switch FC
SW-0915-4119-3504
I said sometimes, lol. I mix up my recovery as much as I can and don't have much trouble getting back because of that. With how vulnerable Ness apparently is recovering low it's useful for baiting certain offensive responses from opponents and forcing them to change up their edgeguards if it either costs them or doesn't earn them anything. I just change it up depending on my opponent's position, which can give away what their intent for edgeguarding is.

I definitely get the danger of recovering low, not trying to assert anything against that.
 

Eltrion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
66
Location
North Bay, Ontario, Canada
You should never intentionally go low. It's just a bad place to be for ness. Recovering from low is basically aim at the ledge an hope they miss time their edge guard.

If the guy your facing is bad you can get lucky with the strong hit, but against better players it's basically a miracle if you get back to the stage.
 
Last edited:

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
I said sometimes, lol. I mix up my recovery as much as I can and don't have much trouble getting back because of that. With how vulnerable Ness apparently is recovering low it's useful for baiting certain offensive responses from opponents and forcing them to change up their edgeguards if it either costs them or doesn't earn them anything. I just change it up depending on my opponent's position, which can give away what their intent for edgeguarding is.

I definitely get the danger of recovering low, not trying to assert anything against that.
Yeah, if I was playing Ness who was recovering low I would just wait on ledge, refresh invincibility and punish until he died.
I get what your're saying that you mix it up though. It's not ALWAYS a bad option by any means.

Like I said before, my main training partner is a Lucas player where recovering low meant bair spike death at 25%.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
Side note, as I was playing in tournament, I took note of the number of times I hit PK Fire vs. hitting PK fire on shield and I definitely hit non-shields more often, but they were able to quickly get out, suffering 3%. So I'm definitely okay with this change.
 

Eltrion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
66
Location
North Bay, Ontario, Canada
I hit about 50/50. Hitting the shield was so nice because it basically forced a roll, so it was very easy to follow up. I suppose it was a bit of a crutch for me...

The only case I can think of for going low, is when youre both off stage, and you can plow through the guy while he's trying to recover.
 

BobVance_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
189
NNID
FingoDingo
3DS FC
3454-1540-6867
As a Ness main, I'd say he's pretty bad now. He has very few options now compared to higher tier characters; so even if he isn't downright terrible, he's certainly not viable. His dgrab being nerfed was the final nail in the coffin.
 

nessmaster1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
68
He is pretty awful now. I don't know. Just feels off a tad now. The PK Fire shield nerf, I was OKAY with. I understand that one at least, but making Pk fire from 100 frames to 45 frames. Just makes me so angry.
P.S
I didn't even notice a damage boost from the PK fire.
 

PJHMastermind

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 6, 2013
Messages
6
Location
Palm Bay, FL
As for Ness' DThrow, not really sure what to think about it yet. Because of the Base Knockback being lower, it might allow us to do follow ups the we normally couldn't have at lower to barely above low %. Just not sure about after that. Might give us more guarantee's on spacies and such at mid/higher %? Correct me/tell me why, if I am wrong. :D
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
As for Ness' DThrow, not really sure what to think about it yet. Because of the Base Knockback being lower, it might allow us to do follow ups the we normally couldn't have at lower to barely above low %. Just not sure about after that. Might give us more guarantee's on spacies and such at mid/higher %? Correct me/tell me why, if I am wrong. :D
Yeah, it will help against spacies at at medium percents and floaties at low percents.
 

madpredar1

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
15
Location
La Plata, Buenos Aires
This nerf is so good, ness was simply too strong against low/mid level players, pike fire was too strong forcing all the time to dodge it, and when not you get ****ing insta killed with a homerun bat or a grab

i feel much more comfortable playing against ness now, i will have to get use to shielding more
 
Last edited:

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
Rest in pepperoni PK2 approaches onstage ;_;

also nobody seems to be freaking out about the change to his down-throw, I thought that was a huge deal.

I mean, I know back-throw is already a kill move, but down-throw uair/bair wasn't free and helped immensely for racking up damage.

As for Ness' DThrow, not really sure what to think about it yet. Because of the Base Knockback being lower, it might allow us to do follow ups the we normally couldn't have at lower to barely above low %. Just not sure about after that. Might give us more guarantee's on spacies and such at mid/higher %? Correct me/tell me why, if I am wrong. :D
I though up-throw was already the "use this on spacies" throw. :/
 
Last edited:

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
Rest in pepperoni PK2 approaches onstage ;_;

also nobody seems to be freaking out about the change to his down-throw, I thought that was a huge deal.

I mean, I know back-throw is already a kill move, but down-throw uair/bair wasn't free and helped immensely for racking up damage.



I though up-throw was already the "use this on spacies" throw. :/
There's a reason none of the top Ness' use PKT2 approaches. They're cute, but don't actually work. The dthrow change is okay. It's not bad. Uthrow works at low percents and dthrow works at mid.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
1,255
Location
Oklahoma City
Top Ness players only use PKT2 approaches when they've completely convinced their opponents that they are far too smart to actually attempt something so silly.

Then they get hit by it, and cry.
 

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
...so what I'm saying is why take out something that didn't affect high-level play?
 

madpredar1

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
15
Location
La Plata, Buenos Aires
Well i always play against a ness main player and i used to lose like every match. Now i win 9-1 games. LOL so huge nerf. So yes, panic
 
Last edited:

Akhenderson

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Redmond, WA
Well i always play against a ness main player and i used to lose like every match. Now i win 9-1 games. LOL so huge nerf. So yes, panic
then your opponent must be terrible to not adapt to the changes and relied too much on the tool that GOT nerfed.
 

NessAtc.

Fukou Da...
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
970
Location
Vancouver Island
NNID
nintenstar98
3DS FC
4699-7691-7794
Switch FC
SW-2476-6260-3913
I see no reason to panic about Ness's nerfs. It just means either get used to 'em or switch to a different character.
 

EarthboundHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
918
Location
South Jersey
NNID
DutMob_A1
His back are shorter but stronger. But the Fair to Naie to PK1 to PK Fire to up throw to pk2 and I promise you 0 to death
 
Top Bottom