Illegal Immigration

[Sandy]

Ok, I've had it with both sides of this argument, and I suspect most of you have as well.

If one argues the most obviously illegal nature of the current influx of illegal aliens, then racist you be. Alternatively, if one points out that there are an alarming number of law abiding illegal aliens in this country, many of whom are simply trying to make a good life, and that deporting all these is a virtual impossibility, one suffers from a lack of patriotic panache.

First let's put away the Political Correctness. This is in no uncertain terms a discussion of illegal aliens. We have laws, archaic though they may be. And, by the act of entering this country without the proper authorization, most certainly these are illegal aliens. I'll not tolerate hiding behind syntax when possibly the very nature of our society is the ante.

We've all heard the arguments both pro and con: you can't reasonably stem the flow; the economy would tank if you tried; these are good people and we're heartless to deny them opportunity; they only take the jobs Americans won't; they're an enormous drain on entitlement resources; they're no longer assimilating; we're becoming a country of minority majority; ... You could co on indefinitely.

The plain and simple fact is all of these arguments are true to some extent. But, in my mind, it's also true that none of it matters when compared to the strife that we bring on ourselves should we continue to leave our borders unprotected.

Does it strike anyone other than me as a little more than stupid that we had this enormous outcry over Dubai Port World's ownership of the business to oversee administration of our largest ports yet the same people who are so concerned with the ports seem entirely oblivious the fact that more than 500 thousand completely unknown individuals swarm across our borders every year? And does anyone other than me believe that it is much more likely to smuggle a vial of immensely deadly poison to place in the water supply or food chain than to bring in a nuclear device, albeit suitcase sized, if indeed such a device exists? Are there any others out there that believe that the enemy we are currently engaged with is capable of taking advantage of the nonexistent border security currently present in the north and south

Let's agree that there are maybe 11 million illegal aliens in this country. Why should we continue to allow them to pour through hundreds of thousands at the time because we can't get our minds around how to deal with the ones already here? This is triage! In my business we say, "First, stop the bleeding." This hemorrhage is bound to turn the streets red in time. The fact that it hasn't yet doesn't speak in our favor nor is it indicative of a lack of threat or desire on the part of our nemesis.

The societal suicide being done here is not passive through a waning of our cultural roots. It is deliberate, active and deadly. It is the inability of our representatives to act in the face of sure threat. It is their desire to continue to live off the fat of the unknowing vote while the good times last.

We are way past the time to respond to this threat. The American people will cry out in vain when the terrorists' deed is done. This country spends in excess of $35 Billion on the Department of Homeland Security and $6.7 Billion on U.S. Customs and Border Protection. By my reckoning the Homeland isn't and the Borders aren't either. Enough talk.

 

[Sargent_Peach]

Alright, I don't like Bill O Reilly, but I was recently watching his show, and he covered immigration in detail. He came up with a four point immigration plan, that I think is pretty easy to understand and agree with. Here it is...

1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people. That would effectively shut down human and drug smuggling from Mexico.

2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony. Right now sneaking across the border is a civil action. Remember that. Subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time. The criminal penalty goes way up.

3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many American hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't.

Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally. They'd have to work for their living.

I think this is a pretty workable plan that pretty much solves all the immigration problems. I don't think it would ever go through congress, but the plan makes sense to me.

 

[Me14k]

I have always been against illegal immigration, but just recently I learned first hand that there are tons of illegals.

I just got a job at mcdonalds. A week ago while I was working I over heard the manager speaking about and employee, the problem was that on the employee's green card it said that his name was fabion, he was not responding to this name..I listened further and heard the boy (fabion) say that his real name was jose..
-the manager responded lightheartedly, he didnt care, he simply said ok to jose/fabion.
-a few minutes later i asked the manager (my boss) what was up....he told me that the employee was an illegal immigrant who has fake/ stolen green card so he can work in the u.s. My bos later went on to tell me that most of our employees are illegal...Our entire kitchen staff is illegal. We have 6 legal latino employees, 5 of them are managers (we have 8 managers)

Sadly because of this incident, every latino worker I see I question myself about the latino's legality .

Yes, illegal immigrants take jobs that most peole dont want to take; who would work the kitchen at my mcdonalds if not for them? But we must face fact, we CANNOT have illegal immigrants coming to america and taking advantage of us.

(Crazy Idea) I am on my school's debate team, we come up with random ideas to argue at practice...one idea that really stuck with me (everyone thinks its insane, i think its practical) is to form a sort of indetered servant program with illegal immigrants. What the plan would be is this: all illegal immigrantsthat are caught will be given the choice of 1. immediate deportation or 2. 10-15 years of indetered service. In the indetered service they will work similar jobs to those they have now but 30% of their income is taxed. Thee gov't wills supply the illegals with housing. After their service they will be granted citizinship.
-I know this sounds like slavery, but it isnt necessarly because 1. they choice to do this. 2. they are making money which they can send back to their families (which is what most of them are doing) and 3. its likely to be a safer envioronment than where they care currently living (illegals are often getting payed a sliver of the minimum wage amount)

--im pretty sure that i spelled 'indetered' wrong.
---indetered service is something that many people did at the beginning of america...families that wanted to immigrate and didnt have enough money would find a host which would pay for them to ome to america..in return the immigrants would work for free for a certain amount of years...usually being about 10 years.

And Sargeant_peach While your ideas are practical, I dont think that we should be punishing businesses which imprisonment. A hefty fine is good enough. If anything you should stop immigration at the start, scare people from immigrating illegaly. How about capitol punishment? (JK).

 

[Eor]

-I know this sounds like slavery, but it isnt necessarly because 1. they choice to do this.

Yeah, choice. The same way I can point a knife at someone and say "Sex or I'll cut your hand off " is a choice.

2. they are making money which they can send back to their families (which is what most of them are doing)

70% of minimum wage is not enough for one person to live on. If they send money back, it's even less. How do you expect them to live? Our tax money?

---indetered service is something that many people did at the beginning of america...families that wanted to immigrate and didnt have enough money would find a host which would pay for them to ome to america..in return the immigrants would work for free for a certain amount of years...usually being about 10 years.

Please, learn your history. "Pay for them to come"? They sold themselves to the person for ten years. That person bought them for that time. Virginia even had laws allowing ""bodily punishment for (the indentured servant) not heeding the commands of the master". Half of the servants died within two years. Under law, servants could not marry/have children, and required permission to leave his master's land, or even to have personal money. Britain even offed convicts sentenced to death the chance to become an indentured servant instead. It was not a good thing, and not something you should bring up to try to rekindle it.

 

[Sargent_Peach]

I'm going to have to agree with Eorlingas, the indentured servant idea is a little crazy. It may sound good to you at first, but when you really think about it, it's a really bad idea. There is an estimated 11 million+ number of illegal aliens in the U.S. and it would be impossible to find them all, not to mention what indentured servitude actually is. Pretty much "forcing" people to work and on top of that steal wages from them just so they don't get deported back to where they come from. Some of which took drastic measures to get here.

And Sargeant_peach While your ideas are practical, I dont think that we should be punishing businesses which imprisonment. A hefty fine is good enough. If anything you should stop immigration at the start, scare people from immigrating illegaly. How about capitol punishment? (JK).

Possible prison time is not overboard if the management knows that what they are doing is wrong and illegal. We have to get serious about this problem if it is ever going to be fixed.

 

[sheepyman]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=70463

Yeah, I think it's an issue that they're in the country, and that there's pretty much no way to get them out of here. But, we can stop future immigration by just getting hard on companies that hire immigrants illegaly.

If immigrants can't get jobs in the U.S., they'll stop coming.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Is there a good reason to why we should continue to let Immigrants into the U.S?
-The fact that the new immigrants are different does not make them a threat as to our culture and beliefs. They try to fit into our society which may be different than what they are used to and have been living with for their whole lives until now. They tried hard to make it to the U.S. in the first place, why would they think they're home free once they get in. They still have to support them selves and continue to live.

-Although a number of the immigrants may be illiterate and will probably have to learn english. That doesn't mean that once they do learn or if they don't learn. They can't be a valuable addition to our countries citizens. They could have skills that they have obtained in their home that not many americans possess. Such as some cooking skills like recipes, or skills in arts and crafts, they could be experienced in working with construction and mechanics.

Would an influx of a large amount of immigrants be good or bad for the country?
- Although there isn't as much land as there used to be so farms could be started up. The immigrants can't help themselves from wanting to come to America. The idea of American opportunity lures them to American, its not their fault they don't know of what is here that they have to face. The growing American economy still needs an abundant work force which many of them could fill. Also the so called "American Dream" doesn't only mean economic riches, it could be something entirely different, unique to the person.

Would the new immigrants cause social problems?
-I think we should be proud of the cultural differences that we have here. I for one live in Hawaii where a majority of the first workers were immigrants. And society here is made up of many different cultures which is why its so diverse here. Social problems exist now (Um. Emos? And blacks, even though some/most of them were forced here and it wasn't their idea to come) and they will continue to exist into the future. You can't get rid of them all completely.

Saying this, I think that we should have control of whos coming in, but not completely cut them off from us.

-Onyx

 

[Obikun]

The immigrants can't help themselves from wanting to come to America. The idea of American opportunity lures them to American, its not their fault they don't know of what is here that they have to face. The growing American economy still needs an abundant work force which many of them could fill. Also the so called "American Dream" doesn't only mean economic riches, it could be something entirely different, unique to the person.

While I understand what you're trying to say OnyxVulpine, when you mention that inmigrants come to the United States in hopes of a better life or for the "American Dream", I think that, in reality, there is far more than just risking their lives for a dream.

We must understand that many of this people (if not all of them) are not driven by the same needs, or by the same prospects. In fact, many of the people are already refugees in the states; people driven by fear of persecution and drawn by hope of safe haven. This is the MAIN reason why mexican people come here; to find a country that is economically developed and politically stable with an established and developing legal system which can help them live their lives without the fear of being trapt in a socially unstable land. But we cannot forget that the problem isn't just the people that come to the United States, because there are thousands of refugees that already live in the states and that now live scared because of the fear of persecution .

It is true that many of the drugs and other illegal merchadise come here through the illegal movement of mexicans and others and that is one of the main reasons why I'm up for an increase in security and the movement of illegal aliens into the states. Many are thinking in making a bigger border or having more patrolling agents in order to make a more secure border, but I find all of this ideas stupid because these people will ALWAYS find a way to get in. What we actually need is to transform the borders into a far more strict and controlled system, a system where people who are coming (or going away) from the U.S. can travel freely between both countries, and, if mexicans are to move to the U.S., they should go through a controlled, regulated and strict system where they are chosen by the United States system as "appropiated" people or not for the country.

But again, all of these ideas might not work or maybe they ARE already being use but are not enough. Sadly, this is a problem that may never end or that will probably end up like the Berlin Wall event which separated east and west Berlin. Finally, I'll like to shared a phrase written in one of the remaining pieces of the Berlin Wall where it says:

"Irgendwann fällt jede Mauer"
- "Eventually every wall falls"

 

[RDK]

I don't see the point of sending illegal immigrants back to where they came from, especially since this would take up more time and money that could be used for something more important. Illegal immigrants that have already made it to the States should be encouraged to pursue legalization and become citezens. That way they won't have to take crappy, third-rate jobs and be afraid that they're going to get in trouble because they're not citezens.

And shame on employers who actually give illegal immigrants jobs. They're just encouraging them not to become citezens.

Something does need to be done about the influx of illegal immigrants. Does anyone wonder why our border patrol isn't as good as, say, Canada's?